Do we have bigger problems?

[bigsublimefan]

Plant was planted on 11/20/20 and took root we are running a DWC on lucas nutes. We change the bucket every single week and we noticed these hunks of brown slim in the roots. the max amount (on the bottle) of UC roots was used every single fill up. The stones seem to really have a lot of this brown shit on them. (as you can see in the photo) We soaked the old bucket and old stones in bleach water.. We replaced the stones with new fresh ones and the new bucket has been cleaned a week ago and was sitting and waiting. (we swap buckets out every nute change so we can clean it properly) the rest of the roots seem ok.. They are brownish because we use the flora trio and from what i've been reading and been told it will do this.
**from the photo of the plant it looks healthy to me so i am stumped

1. is this root rot or is this normal to see abit?
2. are we fucked or can this show up on a bucket change and go away?
3. what is the best way to go forward?

Anything you can tell us info wise would be great as this is our first grow and we are kind of freaking out.. the plant is starting to smell like weed when you get close to it so i don't want to lose it now.

 

[Larry3215]

Nutes dont stain roots. Thats a common misconception.

Those brown areas look like root rot to me. Do they smell? Are the roots in those areas soft and easy to pull apart?

The plants look ok, and most of the roots dont look that bad, so it looks like you caught it early.

I would cut away the worst spots, super clean the air stones, and buckets, then start running a sterile rez by adding chlorine to the water. Shoot for about 4 to 5 PPM to start so you can be sure to knock this back. Then you should be able to cut back to 1-2 PPM to keep things safe.

There are several recent threads here on how to mix up the chlorine/shock properly.

 

[bigsublimefan]

Nutes dont stain roots. Thats a common misconception.

Those brown areas look like root rot to me. Do they smell? Are the roots in those areas soft and easy to pull apart?

The plants look ok, and most of the roots dont look that bad, so it looks like you caught it early.

I would cut away the worst spots, super clean the air stones, and buckets, then start running a sterile rez by adding chlorine to the water. Shoot for about 4 to 5 PPM to start so you can be sure to knock this back. Then you should be able to cut back to 1-2 PPM to keep things safe.

There are several recent threads here on how to mix up the chlorine/shock properly.

You are the first person i've ever heard say that the nute staining the roots was a myth

 

[Larry3215]

Its a very common myth, but I have grown with all the major brands of nutes over the years and the only time I have brown roots is when there are problems with bacteria in the system.

100% healthy roots are pure white.

That said, lots of folks have very good grows even with slightly brown roots, so dont freak out too much. If they get really dark brown and especially smelly, then freak out There are about a million different kinds of bacteria out there and some are a lot worse than others. Its like the difference between a mild cold you hardly know you have, and covid with added brain tumors

 

[bigsublimefan]

ok i took another look and i sniffed them good and they dont sink.. they just smell kind of chemical like.. hard to explain but the smell wasn't bad just like chemicals.
i think its the nutes caked up on the roots.. I mean i could be wrong but i wouldn't call it a slime as it comes off in hunks.. i will keep a close eye on this.

 

[jonnynobody]

Its a very common myth, but I have grown with all the major brands of nutes over the years and the only time I have brown roots is when there are problems with bacteria in the system.

100% healthy roots are pure white.

That said, lots of folks have very good grows even with slightly brown roots, so dont freak out too much. If they get really dark brown and especially smelly, then freak out There are about a million different kinds of bacteria out there and some are a lot worse than others. Its like the difference between a mild cold you hardly know you have, and covid with added brain tumors

You've never used floralicous plus or a highly concentrated seaweed extract eh? Shit is as bad as iodine. Yes, it stains roots. I always inspect my root balls in my 5 gallon hempys while cleaning the buckets after harvest to determine if there were any root issues I was unaware of. Due to the use of floralicious plus, a highly concentrated seaweed extract, the roots take on an amber color.

 

[jonnynobody]

Plant was planted on 11/20/20 and took root we are running a DWC on lucas nutes. We change the bucket every single week and we noticed these hunks of brown slim in the roots. the max amount (on the bottle) of UC roots was used every single fill up. The stones seem to really have a lot of this brown shit on them. (as you can see in the photo) We soaked the old bucket and old stones in bleach water.. We replaced the stones with new fresh ones and the new bucket has been cleaned a week ago and was sitting and waiting. (we swap buckets out every nute change so we can clean it properly) the rest of the roots seem ok.. They are brownish because we use the flora trio and from what i've been reading and been told it will do this.
**from the photo of the plant it looks healthy to me so i am stumped

1. is this root rot or is this normal to see abit?
2. are we fucked or can this show up on a bucket change and go away?
3. what is the best way to go forward?

Anything you can tell us info wise would be great as this is our first grow and we are kind of freaking out.. the plant is starting to smell like weed when you get close to it so i don't want to lose it now.

I would run 3ml/gallon of 35% H202 in all of your buckets. I have a friend using ucroots and he's developed slime in his buckets and the same brown shit you've got on the roots of 1 of his plants. I've never used it and hadn't even heard of it until my friend reported his issues to me this past week. I'm advising you the same way I advised him. Dump. Clean. Sterilize with 35% h202 @ 3ml/gallon with your fertilizer. Root issues in DWC can be caused by high water temperatures in the res creating a bad bacteria breeding ground. Clean it. Sterilize it. Check your water temps.

 

[Larry3215]

i think its the nutes caked up on the roots.. I mean i could be wrong but i wouldn't call it a slime as it comes off in hunks.. i will keep a close eye on this.

I dont see how the nutes could get caked up anywhere unless you didnt mix then in the beginning. Plus, you would have to be running at extremely hi concentrations. Like insanely high.

If you mix some combinations of mineral nutes in the wrong order, you can get a precipitate, but its white, not brown.

Remember that there are litterally hundreds of different kinds of bacteria that can live in root/hydro systems. Some smell and some dont. Pythium is the main one thats commonly referred to as root rot, and it smells bad - like sewer bad almost. But others wont smell at all. There is no way to tell for sure which ones you have or dont have without lab tests.

You've never used floralicous plus or a highly concentrated seaweed extract eh? Shit is as bad as iodine. Yes, it stains roots. I always inspect my root balls in my 5 gallon hempys while cleaning the buckets after harvest to determine if there were any root issues I was unaware of. Due to the use of floralicious plus, a highly concentrated seaweed extract, the roots take on an amber color.

I dont want to start a war, so hopefully we can disagree on that, but check out some soil grows using those same nutes. You will find growers - especially the more successful growers, with pure white roots. They show up periodically in root porn threads when they dump a pot at the end of a grow. Mega Crop - especially in the early versions - also used seaweed as a main part of its base, and it was notorious for 'stained roots'. I had pure white roots even when I ran it at 2.0 EC levels - until things went south in the rez with bacterial/algae growth.

Here are some mega crop/sea weed roots in aero. No staining.

 

[Larry3215]

I would run 3ml/gallon of 35% H202 in all of your buckets. I have a friend using ucroots and he's developed slime in his buckets and the same brown shit you've got on the roots of 1 of his plants. I've never used it and hadn't even heard of it until my friend reported his issues to me this past week. I'm advising you the same way I advised him. Dump. Clean. Sterilize with 35% h202 @ 3ml/gallon with your fertilizer. Root issues in DWC can be caused by high water temperatures in the res creating a bad bacteria breeding ground. Clean it. Sterilize it. Check your water temps.

This we agree on I preffer using chlorine for cost reasons, but H2O2 works fine too.

 

[jonnynobody]

I dont want to start a war, so hopefully we can disagree on that, but check out some soil grows using those same nutes. You will find growers - especially the more successful growers, with pure white roots. They show up periodically in root porn threads when they dump a pot at the end of a grow. Mega Crop - especially in the early versions - also used seaweed as a main part of its base, and it was notorious for 'stained roots'. I had pure white roots even when I ran it at 2.0 EC levels - until things went south in the rez with bacterial/algae growth.

Here are some mega crop/sea weed roots in aero. No staining.

A difference of opinion is an interesting conversation. Nothing more. I only have experience with GH's seaweed concoction they call floralicious plus. It's a thick viscous liquid more akin to a 10w40 motor oil than a liquid fertilizer. The application rate is 5ml/5gallons water. It's the most concentrated gnarly liquid fertilizer I've ever used. I don't use it in my clone tote, but I do use it in my veg nursery and flower room. Once added to a reservoir it instantly paints the water dark black / brown. I grow in 5 gallon water to waste hempy buckets in #4 perlite. The bottom 2 inches of the bucket is the reservoir the roots sit in and drink from. Each time I've harvested the roots and perlite in the 2" res area of the bucket are painted the same color as the water in my reservoir after adding floralicous plus. No slime. No funky smells. No plant issues of any kind.

Have you used floralicous in the past?
I found a photo that perfectly illustrates what I'm explaining here. See all those beautiful white roots except for that 1 in the front right? That's a plant that was under developed because I up potted it from a 1 gallon container to a 5 gallon container far too soon. The result was slow growth, and it was about 8" shorter than the other plants that were entering the flower room. I was already rooting a fresh round of clones, so rather than throw the plant away I just tossed it into an open clone location in my tote. That's what floralicous stained roots look like. The reason you don't see the same on the others is because I do not add floralicous to my clone tote. Notice the new roots that are growing which have not been exposed to floralicous are white as pure snow. Seeing is believing my friend


See that big girl in the rear right? That's her all grown up. She enters the flower room in about 3 weeks

 

[jonnynobody]

This we agree on I preffer using chlorine for cost reasons, but H2O2 works fine too.

I use Southern AG's garden friendly fungicide these days. 1ml/10 gallons. Lot's cheaper than h202. I only use the h202 for sterilizing my air stones these days. Hot water and a splash of h202. Let the stones run in a gallon jug for 20 minutes. Rinse and reinstall. Done. I bought some of the pool shock years ago. I was planning to use it for sterilizing my reservoirs but for some reason I never used it. Still sitting on top my basement fridge-rator

 

[Larry3215]

Each time I've harvested the roots and perlite in the 2" res area of the bucket are painted the same color as the water in my reservoir after adding floralicous plus. No slime. No funky smells. No plant issues of any kind.

Good discussion. Im glad we are able to keep it civil. Thats not always possible on the 'net!

No, I have not used that particular nute, so point to you

We have each presented our 'evidence', but without lab testing neither of us can really prove anything. Im not going to argue further, but I do have a question for you. Well, I guess this could be considered to be continuing the argument...

Why do you suppose the roots in your hempy were only stained below the water line? The nutes will be carried/wicked up through the perlite, in full strength form, for quite some distance. That water film will be covering the roots just as much as if they were in the water - just in a thin layer rather than a thick layer.

A large part of my reasoning is based in inconsistencies like this. Some growers have stained roots but others dont, or one part of the root mass is stained while another is not. It seems to me that if some chemical reaction from the nutes was causing staining, then it would always cause staining - unless something else was going on.

I was perfectly happy to believe nutes stained roots - until I started having pure white roots with the same exact nutes. Actually, I had pure white roots using Mega Crop, and Fox farm nutes in soil. They didnt start to show staining until I moved to hydro and started having rez issues. Once I figured out how to keep a rez really clean, they started to look white again. That kind of inconsistency just doesnt make sense to me if its just the nutes causing the staining.

Thats not proof of course, but I find the logic hard to dismiss.

Also, Im not saying stained roots automatically means ugly or grossly unhealthy plants. Thats demonstrably not the case - as your grows do prove.

I use Southern AG's garden friendly fungicide these days.

I tried hydroguard, then SoAG and had zero luck with either, but that was back when I was still using nutes with organic components. Sinse switching to pure salts, I havent tried it again, and probably wont. I dont even want beneficial bacteria in my rez after all the trouble I had. Im now just keeping my DTW rez chilled down to under 60F at all times.

Lots of people swear by it though. As usual in this hobby - what works for some doesnt for others. Fortunately, there are plenty of options to solve most problems we run into

 

[jonnynobody]

Good discussion. Im glad we are able to keep it civil. Thats not always possible on the 'net!

No, I have not used that particular nute, so point to you

I'll take it. I need all the help I can get. My wife reminds me several times per day =)

We have each presented our 'evidence', but without lab testing neither of us can really prove anything. Im not going to argue further, but I do have a question for you. Well, I guess this could be considered to be continuing the argument...

Agreed. Questions are the main ingredient of an intelligent conversation sir. No arguments here. Until we bring up LED lights that is

Why do you suppose the roots in your hempy were only stained below the water line? The nutes will be carried/wicked up through the perlite, in full strength form, for quite some distance. That water film will be covering the roots just as much as if they were in the water - just in a thin layer rather than a thick layer.

I'm actually glad you asked me that. As I pondered my response whilst laying on my flower room floor taking a little breather I asked myself the same question. So I pulled back some perlite to expose roots at the top of the container and snapped a picture:

Notice the amber color on the roots. Resembles a 50 year old bar whore's nicotine stained teeth:


Then I took a picture of the roots in the run off hole at the base of the container where the res is:

Notice the same color. Only deeper amber. As a matter of fact the only white roots are the ones being air pruned trying to grow out of the container. In a nutshell any roots that made contact with floralicous plus have been stained. The res roots are a deeper shade of amber due to their continuous contact with the floralicous. The roots in the top of the container are rinsed in with the floralicous as it makes it's way down to the reservoir resulting in the lighter amber color. Notice the ugly brown water in the res? That's floralicous water. Kinda like dirty creek water


A large part of my reasoning is based in inconsistencies like this. Some growers have stained roots but others dont, or one part of the root mass is stained while another is not. It seems to me that if some chemical reaction from the nutes was causing staining, then it would always cause staining - unless something else was going on.

Inconsistencies on internet forums? That's heresy sir

I was perfectly happy to believe nutes stained roots - until I started having pure white roots with the same exact nutes. Actually, I had pure white roots using Mega Crop, and Fox farm nutes in soil. They didnt start to show staining until I moved to hydro and started having rez issues. Once I figured out how to keep a rez really clean, they started to look white again. That kind of inconsistency just doesnt make sense to me if its just the nutes causing the staining.

I haven't used mega crop before, but have heard good things about it. I'd imagine they're adding dry kelp meal. Perhaps it's not as concentrated as the kelp extract in floralicous plus? I'll have to take a drop and place it on a piece of paper so you can see just how nasty this stuff is. Seeing is believing

Thats not proof of course, but I find the logic hard to dismiss.

There's nothing wrong with demanding evidence and proof before changing your thinking on an issue.

Also, Im not saying stained roots automatically means ugly or grossly unhealthy plants. Thats demonstrably not the case - as your grows do prove.

Say what you want about my wife or mother, but I appreciate your discretion when referring to my plants. You're a kind soul

I tried hydroguard, then SoAG and had zero luck with either, but that was back when I was still using nutes with organic components. Sinse switching to pure salts, I havent tried it again, and probably wont. I dont even want beneficial bacteria in my rez after all the trouble I had. Im now just keeping my DTW rez chilled down to under 60F at all times.

The only reason to add any of those other products is if you're experiencing high water temps. Problem solved with the chiller. I'd never look in the rear view mirror. Just an observation though - I noticed you were using those products while using organic fertilizers. That's akin to sparky dropping a load of biscuits on the kitchen carpet, spraying it with some lysol, and calling it a day. It's just not going to work like that. Hydroponic reservoirs need to be kept sterile. Adding organic amendments or fertilizer to a hydroponic reservoir is no bueno. Here's an example from my garden: I read some silly article that suggested molasses was not only okay in a hydroponic reservoir - it was recommended! I thought that was contrary to everything I had ever been told about hydroponics, but it was from a reputable company so I thought I'd give it a whirl. I was sterilizing my reservoirs with 35% h202 at the time @ 3ML/gallon. As soon as I began adding the molasses foul smells began to develop and the water in the reservoir was gnarly with sludge bubbles and all sorts of terribleness. What lesson can be learned from that experience? I learned that even if you sterilize the water you can't just drop a turd in it and feed your plants with it. The molasses was the organic turd, and no amount of 35% h202 would remedy my critical error in operating a hydroponic garden. If your chiller ever breaks give Southern AG a try again. It works. You just can't put it on an organic turd and expect sterility. It just doesn't work that way

Lots of people swear by it though. As usual in this hobby - what works for some doesnt for others. Fortunately, there are plenty of options to solve most problems we run into

Sometimes it's just good old fashioned operator error. Have you seen my thread on GH's maxi fertilizer? Operator error is sometimes a way of life for me

Sometimes I think this is the most peaceful place in the world for me. If I die in here all is right with the world. God just don't fucking let it be electrocution. That shit hurts

 

[Larry3215]

Im too stoned to give that post the response it deserves at the moment, and laughing too hard....... those hairy knees and the shoes! Love it! LOL

 

[bigsublimefan]

man i was thinking things might of been headed for bad but i commend both of you for keeping it civil. i hang out on a lot of different forums for motorcycles, video games, and many things but ive never seen anybody keep it civil like the both of you. members like you guys are the keystones to groups like this. thanks for your time and help. As you see my account is very very old.. I've debated growing in 2007 but laws are much much different these days so i am glad i hung around this community of good people.

this is my first plan and i only have one and it was some random el cheapo seed called cheese that i got free for ordering AK47 that i want to wait to grow until i feel i know what i am doing.

as for my issue, for starters my pump is garbage.. my brother suggested that i wasn't getting enough bubbles.. i mean its a rolling boil but not where i'd like to see it and NOWHERE near his. So i have that on the way. every bucket change the lady and i swap buckets so the old bucket and old stones got cleaned with bleach and left to sit. My water temps are in the mid to low 60s due to the temps and where it sits.. the room its bubbling away in doesn't get much eat..tent stays from 75 to 80 but the water is always pretty fucking cold to the touch and last time i temp gunned the water it read 69F on the nose lol.

we swapped the nutes and tired to pull out the slimy shit.. I remembered that the stones that were in there have been being used over and over for a month so i changed them out and i am just going to watch it close and hope this works itself out.

Also i will be picking up some hydroguard.. but i plan to finish up the rest of UC roots first.

thank you for all of your help guys. it means a lot to me, i never knew growing like this could be so much fun.

I cant wait for the high when i smoke the stuff i grew myself.. i cant wait.

 

[jonnynobody]

man i was thinking things might of been headed for bad but i commend both of you for keeping it civil.

Civility is the only thing that separates us from the animals. I have my good days and my bad days

 

[jonnynobody]

@Larry3215 I snapped a picture of what the floralicous looks like in the bottle. Nasty thick viscous stuff. And a picture of what it looks like with 17ML added to a 17 gallon reservoir. It's truly gnarly stuff. I've never used another product as disgustingly thick and stain producing as this stuff.

 

[Larry3215]

I have some more questions aand a rebuttal or three for you but Im fighting kidney stones and staying pretty heavily stoned, so all the perfect arguments flooting around in my head may not be as perfect as I thiink they are... just you wait though...

That IS some nasty looking stuff. Why in the world would anyone put it in a nice clean rez???

crap I cant even type...

 

[jonnynobody]

I have some more questions aand a rebuttal or three for you but Im fighting kidney stones and staying pretty heavily stoned, so all the perfect arguments flooting around in my head may not be as perfect as I thiink they are... just you wait though...

That IS some nasty looking stuff. Why in the world would anyone put it in a nice clean rez???

crap I cant even type...

I'm very sorry to hear about the kidney stones. One of my patients was in the hospital the other day due to stones. I wish you well soon. Stones are no joke. lol, yes it is absolutely awful. I don't believe GH recommends it in a recirculating system. I'm pretty sure the bottle says only add on the day of watering. Awful stuff

 

[Larry3215]

Sorry to leave you hanging for so long. Life keeps happening and I get sidetracked easily these days.

One of my patients was in the hospital the other day due to stones. I wish you well soon. Stones are no joke.

If you work in a any type of healthcare, my hats off to you, and I want to thank you for doing that. Thats a hi risk job these days and you are a hero.

man i was thinking things might of been headed for bad but i commend both of you for keeping it civil.

Thanks. You lucked out and happened to get two exceptionally nice guys who started an argument in the middle of your thread - instead of answering your questions

Also i will be picking up some hydroguard.. but i plan to finish up the rest of UC roots first.

UCroots and hydroguard do two completely different things. UCroots is to stop scale buildup, and hydroguard is a beneficial bacteria. I dont see why you cant do both. Plus, Im not sure why you would use UC in a DWC system anyway. Your not running water through any medium, so scale build up should be minimal I would think.

Your water temps sound good, and if they stay that low you are at low risk of infection normally, but I have a question about your nutes.

You said you were running lucas formula. What exactly are you adding? If you are using GH flors micro and bloom, you shouldnt have any goop in the rez to stick to roots. Are you adding anything else at all other than the UCroots?

On the other hand, as long as your plants look ok, I wouldnt freak out too much. Just keep a close eye out on any dark v=brown crap as root rot can kill a plant pretty quickly if it gets out of hand.