Coots Mix Advice for new living soil grower

[GrassBurner]

Hey hows it going. Im in the process of making a living soil using coots recipe, and im looking for some advice from those using coots mix. I mixed up a batch and let it "cook" for about a month, watered in once a week with a little molasses, made an ewc tea once as well. When I transplanted seedlings in jiffy pucks into 2 gallon fabric pots with my mix, they didnt do so hot. Growth wasnt super slow, but they were a very light greenish/yellow color. Plants are all Bean Brains, 3 NL1 Big Skunk, 3 PHK Bx. Cabinet is 2'x3'x4', with a qb288 bspec on a 120 watt meanwell driver, running around 70%. Light is about 2 and a half feet above the plants. Soil ph'd around 7, as does my well water.



About a week into being in the mix, about half my plants started showing brown spotting on the lower leaves.



From what I understand, the biggest variables are going to be the quality of compost and ewc's each person puts into the mix. I believe my ewc's are top quality, I get them locally from an older worm farmer who also owns a nursery. Castings are always super dark, have great consistency, and every bag ive gotten so far have had worms living in them.
My compost is whats questionable. It looked and smelled good, but Im not really sure about its actual composition.

It looks like I was having a nitrogen issue with the light coloring, but im new to growing in general, and very new to living soils. I ran a rapitest for nitrogen in the soil and it was very low. Im not exactly sure what the spotting was, im assuming it was lacking a nutrient somewhere.

This is only my 3rd grow, and I just dont have the knowledge and experience to fight nutrient issues comfortably. I figured since the plants were so young, I would transplant them into an organic potting soil, and try to ammend the coots mix to use for my next few grows.

I mixed up some miracle grow performance organics potting mix, ewc's, and lava rock 2:1:1. The plants are looking much better, theyve got their color back and have resumed pretty vigorous growth.



I feel confident that this soil will carry them through veg, and hoping I can ammend my coots mix to transplant them into for flower in about a month.

For my coots mix, I used a kit that called for 2 cups of their ammendment/mineral mix per cu ft. The coots recipe I found is from a website called clackamascoots.com, I'm assuming this is his website. Right now my ammendments and minerals consist of equal parts kelp meal, crab meal, neem/karanja, oyster shell flour, gypsum, and basalt. They are applied at 2 cups per cu ft. The recipe on coots website calls for 1 cup kelp, 1 cup neem/karanja, 1 cup oyster shell, 1/2 cup gypsum, and 3 cups basalt dust per cubic foot.

I've ordered the ammendments to bring my soil up to these ratio's, as well as some bat guano to add nitrogen. I guess first I should confirm that clackamascoots.com is operated by the original coots soil creator? If its some bunk website im on then I guess I need to go back to square 1. My biggest questions are how long should I let the soil cook after adding ammendments before using it? My compost wasnt hot when I added it to the mix, but im not sure how long I should let the guano do its thing before planting in it, or how long it takes for the ammendments to be available to the plants. I *should* have a pretty healthy food web going on, the soil is cooking outside in nature in a futon frame i converted into a compost bin. Wire mesh around the sides and back, and i just keep a tarp loosely on top. I wonder if this qualifies as happy frog soil, guess ill have to ask this gentleman if he's happy.



Please excuse my ignorance, im trying to learn. Im in a prohibition state so information and quality products aren't available at a local grow shop. Im a pretty smart dumbass, and if im making some bonehead moves let me know, and ill have my girlfriend smack me Any advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[OneHitDone]

Following... Not much to add other than not sure what in your mix needs much "cooking"?

Fairly new to indoor organics myself and have been having great success with the Grean Bicycles mix. Always learning and looking to reduce purchased inputs though so will be curious the success you have with your mix

 

[waktoo]

IMO, the "Coot mix" is super dense and not suited for use in small pots without adding a whole bunch more "aeration", of varying particulate size. 3/8" pumice doesn't promote sufficient air-filled porosity in small containers. Plant roots can't breath in it, and neither can soil microbes. Efficient soil respiration is impossible without ample amounts of dissolved oxygen in the soil.

From the mentioned web site...

"Having owned and operated a commercial nursery grown different cultivars of Japanese Lace Maples for landscape architects in their resort, restaurant and commercial buildings. For this you have to grow the plant in large containers for a massive root mass which is spelled out in the contract."

This meant that you had the plants on your property for 4 or 5 years. This made the soil mix all-important vs growing annual plants for the retail market - Home Depot, Lowe's, Target, Walmart as well as the independent nurseries across the country meaning low-profit plants as you can imagine."

If you've ever spent much time in a nursery, you know how big "large containers" are...

 

[OneHitDone]

IMO, the "Coot mix" is super dense and not suited for use in small pots without adding a whole bunch more "aeration", of varying particulate size. 3/8" pumice doesn't promote sufficient air-filled porosity in small containers. Plant roots can't breath in it, and neither can soil microbes. Efficient soil respiration is impossible without ample amounts of dissolved oxygen in the soil.

From the mentioned web site...

"Having owned and operated a commercial nursery grown different cultivars of Japanese Lace Maples for landscape architects in their resort, restaurant and commercial buildings. For this you have to grow the plant in large containers for a massive root mass which is spelled out in the contract."

This meant that you had the plants on your property for 4 or 5 years. This made the soil mix all-important vs growing annual plants for the retail market - Home Depot, Lowe's, Target, Walmart as well as the independent nurseries across the country meaning low-profit plants as you can imagine."

If you've ever spent much time in a nursery, you know how big "large containers" are...

I thought that mix looked a bit dense.
Anything calling for 1/3 worm casings or compost seems a bit too closed up.
Seems strange but for buckets (5 gallon buckets) I've been using a mix that is based on 1:1 Peat / Perlite and seeing fantastic results

 

[GrassBurner]

Thanks for the replies!!

 

[waktoo]

I thought that mix looked a bit dense.
Anything calling for 1/3 worm casings or compost seems a bit too closed up.
Seems strange but for buckets (5 gallon buckets) I've been using a mix that is based on 1:1 Peat / Perlite and seeing fantastic results

That's the difference, perlite vs. pumice...

Even though perlite comes in varying "grades", each one of those grades has varying particulate sizes in them. The particle sizes in any bag of perlite are different/non-uniform. This provides for more air-filled porosity, which smaller volumes of container soils require.

Pumice is used in nursery propagation because it's heavy, and keeps "top heavy" plants like trees (in really big pots) upright in outdoor/windy environments.

 

[OneHitDone]

That's the difference, perlite vs. pumice...

Even though perlite comes in varying "grades", each one of those grades has varying particulate sizes in them. The particle sizes in any bag of perlite are different/non-uniform. This provides for more air-filled porosity, which smaller volumes of container soils require.

Pumice is used in nursery propagation because it's heavy, and keeps "top heavy" plants like trees (in really big pots) upright in outdoor/windy environments.

When I put my organic beds together the bottom half is 2/3 pumice. The upper "topsoil" has perlite.
I was referring to the Coots mix being rather low in Aeration in any form.
A lot of nursery growers of long term crops such as trees have moved to mix of at least half pumice of lava rock in a attempt to build a "permanent" soil that won't shrink down so badly damaging the root systems of these longer term crops.
I try to pull in ideas from regular horticulture / ag rather than what's trending in the cannabis forums. Sounds like you do as well!

 

[Trainwreckertonville]

Did you use promix or regular canadian sphagnum peat moss? The reason I ask is because promix or the like is pre-limed and the coots mix has amendments accounting for that. So could be a PH issue. The raw canadian peat moss the recipe calls for is not pre limed.

I added dairy cow compost and not a ton of EWC but they were quality vermacastings, the recipie calls for 15/20% max EWC for the 30% overall compost portion of the mix otherwise you can have excessive sodium.

If you follow his mix to the T it’s amazing with no issues at all. No tea’s, just top dressed and as many worms you can afford.

Combine all those pots into one.

 

[GrassBurner]

Thanks for the info Trainwreck! I just used the regular peat moss bale from a home improvement store. I could probably use a few more worms, might go grab some this weekend. How many lbs of worms would you recommend for 10 cu ft of soil? I believe I've got about 3 lbs in there now.

I might have went heavy on my ewc's in the initial mix if you only want 15%-20%. I want to say I did 2 cu ft of compost and 1 cu ft of castings.
I've got access to as many cow patties as I want, I need to go grab some and get a few compost barrels going so I know exactly whats in my mix.

I ordered Tru Living Organics by the rev, hopefully I can soak up some good information there. I should have the ammendments and minerals next week. I'll get them in there and see what we're working with

 

[Richard Drysift]

Thanks for the info Trainwreck! I just used the regular peat moss bale from a home improvement store. I could probably use a few more worms, might go grab some this weekend. How many lbs of worms would you recommend for 10 cu ft of soil? I believe I've got about 3 lbs in there now.

I might have went heavy on my ewc's in the initial mix if you only want 15%-20%. I want to say I did 2 cu ft of compost and 1 cu ft of castings.
I've got access to as many cow patties as I want, I need to go grab some and get a few compost barrels going so I know exactly whats in my mix.

I ordered Tru Living Organics by the rev, hopefully I can soak up some good information there. I should have the ammendments and minerals next week. I'll get them in there and see what we're working with

The Rev will set you straight. Coots mix is not much different than any other organic mix but I agree with others that it can be a bit heavy for indoor container use. Adding in some perlite and/or coco coir can help lighten it up. Worms are beneficial of course but don’t always last long inside containers. Starting up a worm bin is a baller move. Fresh vermicompost is just as good if not better than having live worms in your pots. In my experience it takes a few recycles to get your mix to supernatural status. You’ll get there

 

[kratos015]

Coot's mix is only "heavy" for container use because we don't use the same quality of EWC/compost that he does. I had this hunch myself until Coot's himself confirmed it in an interview I stumbled upon many years back.

Episode 3: Clackamas Coot Talks Worm Castings, Malted Barley, Peat Moss, & Coot's Soil mix

In this episode, we talk with Clackamas Coot (Jim Bennett) about how he came up with using malted barley in his soils and sprouting seeds for teas. He explains the benefits of neem and the importance of worm castings. Coot is famous for his soil mixes and all the information he freely shared on...

www.kisorganics.com

"That's it, so when people say well you know, I did that Coot mix and what I got, you know the potassium was just off the chart, no you didn’t, you didn’t do mine. You went and got something locally, it may have been steer manure from Wal-Mart for all I know, I have no idea what used, you didn't make my mix because you don’t have my castings."

"If you use bad biology in your soil you're going to have bad soil, that's all there is to it. If you can get to use unfinished compost, I don't need to explain the science to you, you know what it does to the roots, it burns them. So garbage in, garbage out, you want good potting soil, you've got to start with something good and you know you've got to plan ahead."

He confirmed the suspicions I had from my first couple runs with his mix.

We do not have his EWC. Read the interview if you guys find the time, Coots spends 9+ months making his EWC. Tons of great information in this interview.

His EWC don't clump up in the soil when watered and has an entirely different texture from most EWC on the market. This is why people like you and me have to subtract compost/EWC and add extra aeration instead. Because our compost/EWC is not the same as his in terms of texture and consistency. Clumping and soil compaction will fuck us, where as someone that makes their own proper EWC will never encounter this issue and can use the famous 1:1:1 ratio with no issues.



As for Rev, that guy is a hack at best. Nutrient spikes, teas, soils with dozens of ingredients. You don't need any of that crap.

Less is more.

Bale of peat moss (6 cuft), 6 cuft perlite, and 4 cuft compost. Basalt for your mineral amendment, and crab/kelp/neem meal for your organic amendments. Or a Down to Earth or Dr Earth organic amendment blend for your nutrients. Water and turn once a day for a week, put in pots and you're good to go.

After a couple of years of running this soil as No-till, dump the pots and you'll have pure compost and perlite. Add peat moss and more perlite to the composted no-till soil and mix/amend as needed and start all over again.

Its as cheap as it is effective.

Tried and true for me for roughly 7 years now, no teas, no "spikes", no laundry list of amendments/minerals.

 

[GrassBurner]

The Rev will set you straight. Coots mix is not much different than any other organic mix but I agree with others that it can be a bit heavy for indoor container use. Adding in some perlite and/or coco coir can help lighten it up. Worms are beneficial of course but don’t always last long inside containers. Starting up a worm bin is a baller move. Fresh vermicompost is just as good if not better than having live worms in your pots. In my experience it takes a few recycles to get your mix to supernatural status. You’ll get there

Thanks for the info!! Glad to know it gets better with time. Im pretty confident that I'll end up with a killer soil, thanks to the riu community. Ill keep learning and burnin

 

[GrassBurner]

Coot's mix is only "heavy" for container use because we don't use the same quality of EWC/compost that he does. I had this hunch myself until Coot's himself confirmed it in an interview I stumbled upon many years back.

Episode 3: Clackamas Coot Talks Worm Castings, Malted Barley, Peat Moss, & Coot's Soil mix

In this episode, we talk with Clackamas Coot (Jim Bennett) about how he came up with using malted barley in his soils and sprouting seeds for teas. He explains the benefits of neem and the importance of worm castings. Coot is famous for his soil mixes and all the information he freely shared on...

www.kisorganics.com

"That's it, so when people say well you know, I did that Coot mix and what I got, you know the potassium was just off the chart, no you didn’t, you didn’t do mine. You went and got something locally, it may have been steer manure from Wal-Mart for all I know, I have no idea what used, you didn't make my mix because you don’t have my castings."

"If you use bad biology in your soil you're going to have bad soil, that's all there is to it. If you can get to use unfinished compost, I don't need to explain the science to you, you know what it does to the roots, it burns them. So garbage in, garbage out, you want good potting soil, you've got to start with something good and you know you've got to plan ahead."

He confirmed the suspicions I had from my first couple runs with his mix.

We do not have his EWC. Read the interview if you guys find the time, Coots spends 9+ months making his EWC. Tons of great information in this interview.

His EWC don't clump up in the soil when watered and has an entirely different texture from most EWC on the market. This is why people like you and me have to subtract compost/EWC and add extra aeration instead. Because our compost/EWC is not the same as his in terms of texture and consistency. Clumping and soil compaction will fuck us, where as someone that makes their own proper EWC will never encounter this issue and can use the famous 1:1:1 ratio with no issues.



As for Rev, that guy is a hack at best. Nutrient spikes, teas, soils with dozens of ingredients. You don't need any of that crap.

Less is more.

Bale of peat moss (6 cuft), 6 cuft perlite, and 4 cuft compost. Basalt for your mineral amendment, and crab/kelp/neem meal for your organic amendments. Or a Down to Earth or Dr Earth organic amendment blend for your nutrients. Water and turn once a day for a week, put in pots and you're good to go.

After a couple of years of running this soil as No-till, dump the pots and you'll have pure compost and perlite. Add peat moss and more perlite to the composted no-till soil and mix/amend as needed and start all over again.

Its as cheap as it is effective.

Tried and true for me for roughly 7 years now, no teas, no "spikes", no laundry list of amendments/minerals.

Tons of good info there, im gonna go read that right now. Thats pretty interesting about how he makes his worm castings, and makes a lot of sense. Ive got about 3 cu ft of lava rock in right now, but it sounds like i need to add some perlite as well. Im all about the less is more approach, simplicity is sophistication I appreciate the link and first hand info, invaluable stuff.

 

[kratos015]

OP, looks like classic signs of overwatering IMO.

The plants are droopy from taking up too much water and your leaves are showing a combination of burn and deficiencies, almost always a pH problem from the result of overwatering.

Coot's mix doesn't need to "cook". You only have to "cook" soil when you have "hot" ingredients such as guano, alfalfa/blood meal, etc.

Using the BAS mix of Crab/Kelp/Neem meal does not require cooking, you can put it in pots and grow in it immediately.

I'm not seeing much aeration, and signs of overwatering.

Fortunately, you're still in the early stages of veg. Transplant into 5-7g pots before you flip to 12/12 and be sure the new soil you transplant in has more aeration than what I'm currently seeing in the pics.

I use 40% perlite, 40% peat, 20% compost. Reason being what I pointed out in my post above, I don't have access to quality compost/EWC. So rather than mix too much compost into my soil mix, I just top dress with compost religiously. All the benefits of the compost without messing with the consistency of your soil.

 

[kratos015]

Tons of good info there, im gonna go read that right now. Thats pretty interesting about how he makes his worm castings, and makes a lot of sense. Ive got about 3 cu ft of lava rock in right now, but it sounds like i need to add some perlite as well. Im all about the less is more approach, simplicity is sophistication I appreciate the link and first hand info, invaluable stuff.

Glad to help, it truly is valuable info to say the least.

I forget if it's this interview, or another interview of his but he describes the actual consistency of his castings.

Coot's castings are so finely strained and sieved that it doesn't clump up on him at all.

Quality compost/EWC takes tons of time, effort, and planning to execute properly. But if one can do just that, you'll be unstoppable and will be able to grow pretty much anything successfully.

 

[ChrispyCritter]

I like Coots mix over Revs because it's so much simpler. I read Revs book and used his mixes when I got into organics. Lots of good info I still refer back to but some things I didn't like. Just me maybe. Coots mix relies heavily on really good compost and like someone mentioned needs chunky aeration. Coot has always said that.

 

[kratos015]

I like Coots mix over Revs because it's so much simpler. I read Revs book and used his mixes when I got into organics. Lots of good info I still refer back to but some things I didn't like. Just me maybe. Coots mix relies heavily on really good compost and like someone mentioned needs chunky aeration. Coot has always said that.

Less is more.

Rev is a bit of a jackass and I have no qualms saying it. He acts like he's the shit, but his mix has like half a hydro store's worth of ingredients in it.

Subcool's mix is even better than Rev's.

Difference between Sub and Rev is that Sub is cool as fuck, totally humble and chill. Sub will be the first to admit (and has) that he doesn't know why his mix works, only that its what works for him.

 

[GrassBurner]

I'd be willing to bet your right about over watering What things do you look for when determining when to water? Seems like watering is hit or miss for me.

 

[GrassBurner]

Less is more.

Rev is a bit of a jackass and I have no qualms saying it. He acts like he's the shit, but his mix has like half a hydro store's worth of ingredients in it.

Subcool's mix is even better than Rev's.

Difference between Sub and Rev is that Sub is cool as fuck, totally humble and chill. Sub will be the first to admit (and has) that he doesn't know why his mix works, only that its what works for him.

That figures I picked it up because it looked like it was geared towards organic growing. Oh well, I guess ive made worse decisions with my money

 

[kratos015]

I'd be willing to bet your right about over watering What things do you look for when determining when to water? Seems like watering is hit or miss for me.

You know how you're supposed to fully soak the soil in water before you transplant your clone/seedling into it? Before I do that, I lift the pot so I can feel how heavy it is without water. Then, I lift the pot, so I can feel how heavy it is when it's at maximum water capacity.

Then, every day I check on them, I lift the pots. I don't water until it feels like it does when I put the soil in the pot without soaking the medium in water.. if that makes sense. I know I worded that a bit awkwardly so I hope I was able to communicate it effectively enough.

Watering is definitely hit and miss for most of us, and I'd go as far as to say over-watering is the cause of ~90% of issues in an indoor grow.

Took me years to figure out my watering practices were the source of my issues, as you're discovering, simplicity. I chased literally every issue under the sun before I finally took a look at the most basic thing, water.



Unless your pot is rootbound, you don't need to water very often. Plants the size of yours only need watering once, maybe twice a week max. Once the pots get rootbound, then you'll water every 1-2 days. Knock on the sides of your pots (nice thing about fabric pots). If you feel soil, you don't need to water often. If you actually hit something solid when you knock, you've got enough roots to warrant watering more than that.

The biggest takeaway I stress to people concerning watering is this; is it significantly better to underwater than it is to overwater. Underwatering is easy as fuck to correct, just water them and they'll be fine. Overwater? Takes days, even weeks in some cases to correct, and that's assuming your overwatering doesn't cause root rot/anaerobic soil conditions.

I've had plants survive in 122 degree heat for ~8 hours when my ACs shut off, only one of them was droopy in fact. None of them died.

But I can't count the amount of plants I've harmed, if not killed by overwatering.

HTH