GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
Thanks for taking the time to explain @kratos015 Great info about rootbound plants, never would have thought to knock on the sides of the pots. Ill definitely put this information to use.
Coots Mix Advice for new living soil grower
- Thread starter GrassBurner
- Start date
Here.I'd be willing to bet your right about over wateringWhat things do you look for when determining when to water? Seems like watering is hit or miss for me.
Hopefully this will offer some understanding towards what I've been saying about air-filled pore space, related to soil mix density, related to pot size. With regard to the sized pots that we put them in, the physical characteristics of these "soil-less" mixes that we build is hardly ever considered. It might lend some insight as to how to implement an efficient watering program as well.
Read them all. Read them again. Read them until all the information provided soaks in, and you understand it thoroughly. Understand the difference between horticultural/nursery "soil-less" mixes, our mixes, and field soil. Then implement that understanding into your potting procedure/regime. And then spread the understanding...
There are a lot of links here. They're very short reads...
What Makes a Good Container Soil Mix? Part 1: Why Not Just Use Field Soil? - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 2: Water and Air Porosity - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 3: How much air and water? - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 4: Effect on Root Disease - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 5: Effect of Soil Settling, Salt and Drought on Root Rot - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 6: When to irrigate - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 7: How much to Irrigate - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 8: Container Soil Chemical Properties - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
Soil Mixes Part 9: Properties of Common Soil Mix Components - Nursery and Flower Grower - ANR Blogs
OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
Very good resources, thanks for the links
@kratos015
So you like a 2:2:1 ratio base mix, using a quality "outsourced" compost? With some top dressing along the way?
I've been out of the loop for about three years now. I've been thinking of following a similar build and regime for a new round of growing...
How long have you been doing this, and finishing in what sized pots? Looks like you're "no-tilling" it? Do you pot up into the no-till, or grow in it start to finish?
What material do you use for the "aeration" component?
So you like a 2:2:1 ratio base mix, using a quality "outsourced" compost? With some top dressing along the way?
I've been out of the loop for about three years now. I've been thinking of following a similar build and regime for a new round of growing...
How long have you been doing this, and finishing in what sized pots? Looks like you're "no-tilling" it? Do you pot up into the no-till, or grow in it start to finish?
What material do you use for the "aeration" component?
Star Dog
Well-Known Member
The thread title caught my eye, does anyone have a reasonable quality microscope?
I often read references to the effect of hydro is sterile, if you get a sample of your solution from run off and use 3/400x magnification its alive with all sorts of life forms, fleas, worms come to mind but there was other creatures.
I first seen it with perlite/nutrient then coco/nutrient, it was always a good source to let my kids see what was beyond the human eye, I thought it interesting but not enough to go and research what I was seeing that's somewhat irrelevant to me though none the less interesting that it's not dead.
I often read references to the effect of hydro is sterile, if you get a sample of your solution from run off and use 3/400x magnification its alive with all sorts of life forms, fleas, worms come to mind but there was other creatures.
I first seen it with perlite/nutrient then coco/nutrient, it was always a good source to let my kids see what was beyond the human eye, I thought it interesting but not enough to go and research what I was seeing that's somewhat irrelevant to me though none the less interesting that it's not dead.
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
Kinda dispels the notion that "chemical nutes' kill soil life", doesn't it?
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
Very interesting stuff!! So the size of aeration materials should be determined by pot height. "For any given container mix, as the container height decreases, the water- holding capacity increases". So smaller pots need larger aeration.
Soil tension seems to be pretty important as well. Theyre saying that a pot may still have 10% available water, but the soil tension is too high for the plant to use it. Good stuff.
They are saying weigh your pot right after irrigation, then weigh again when plant begins to wilt. The difference in weight is your available water. "Irrigation should occur when half of the available water is used." Now this seems like a simple way to determine precisely how much water needs to be applied in organic soil. Looks like soil that uses nutrient mixes should allow runoff to dissipate built up salts in the soil. So you need to account for the runoff when calculating available water.
I'm seeing the importance of peat moss for the cec as well. Coconut coir has almost double the cec of peat. Should a small portion of peat be replace with coir to help the cec?
Awesome articles!! I feel a lot more confident now, and have a good head start on what I need to add to my coots mix aeration wise to give an optimal environment. Thank you so much!!
Soil tension seems to be pretty important as well. Theyre saying that a pot may still have 10% available water, but the soil tension is too high for the plant to use it. Good stuff.
They are saying weigh your pot right after irrigation, then weigh again when plant begins to wilt. The difference in weight is your available water. "Irrigation should occur when half of the available water is used." Now this seems like a simple way to determine precisely how much water needs to be applied in organic soil. Looks like soil that uses nutrient mixes should allow runoff to dissipate built up salts in the soil. So you need to account for the runoff when calculating available water.
I'm seeing the importance of peat moss for the cec as well. Coconut coir has almost double the cec of peat. Should a small portion of peat be replace with coir to help the cec?
Awesome articles!! I feel a lot more confident now, and have a good head start on what I need to add to my coots mix aeration wise to give an optimal environment. Thank you so much!!
GreenestBasterd
Well-Known Member
I cut the coots mix 50% coots to 50% coco or peat for 3 gals pots and under then straight coots mix.
The seedlings, cuttings and small plants seem to “take off” a lot quicker and it’ll dry out faster if you overwater.
The seedlings, cuttings and small plants seem to “take off” a lot quicker and it’ll dry out faster if you overwater.
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
Nice!! Ill give the 50/50 mix a try next time I pop seeds.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
I've always heard it was the opposite, and Peat has double the CEC of Coco and that's why Coot (and others) prefer it so much. Sure its not read the other way around? Mind directing me to the link where you read that please?
I do wish it was coco that had better CEC, coco is so much more forgiving than peat.
Exactly what I do, its just what I've found works for me personally. Mileage may vary kind of thing, may work for some but not others.
If you've been thinking about following a similar recipe, you've probably experienced the exact same issues and thoughts that I did when I made the change. Soil compaction was a huge issue for me, why I added the extra perlite instead of compost.
I top dress every week, none of the ingredients I use are "hot" so the only potential issue from top dressing weekly for me is the potential for diminishing returns applying too frequently. However, both the compost and organic amendments are so affordable I have no issue with diminishing returns if it means taking the "better safe than sorry" approach.
I've done this since 2016 in varying pot sizes: 2g, 5g, 7g, 25g, and 30g. The 25 and 30g pots were only just recently dumped last year, so got a good ~3 years out of them between indoor and outdoor grows with both cannabis and veggies.
I'm also not too crazy about "potting up", personally. Disturbs things too much, and an extra chance(s) to mess things up with the roots. At which point, we're fucked.
Yet another reason for the extra perlite, when starting in large pots the threat of stagnant water becomes much higher when its just a clone/seedling in a big ass pot. Something else I had the pleasure of learning the hard way lol
I only use pots when I'm indoors now though, as of last year. I had an insane amount of success with a little experiment I had during last year's outdoor grow.
Living in the desert, my dirt here is pretty much just sand and rock. I was on my porch looking at the cacti during a crazy rainstorm we had. I observed that, while the water pooled up at the base of the plant, it didn't take long for the water to soak into the ground.
Finally realized that eventually, after the water sinks, it surely must "pool" up below when it finally hits the rocks after going through the sand. Water is then likely "wicked" up as needed. So, I dug holes large enough to fit 20g of my soil. Then I broke up some of the dirt underneath before putting the soil in the hole. I had 40% perlite in the mix, so excess water could "drain" to the desert soil to be wicked upward. Theory was twofold, my watering would be more efficient due to water "pooling" below my soil mix AND my roots would grow through my soil and straight into the sand to keep searching for water.
Sure enough, that's exactly what happened. Biggest stems and root mass I'd ever seen in my life, the roots grew out of the soil and further into the dirt. As a result, my plants were absolutely enormous. Ended up digging a couple of the plants up to see just what the root mass looked like. Couldn't do no-till as I didn't think I'd be growing this year. Not only did the roots grow an extra foot below the soil, but they spread everywhere. The entire 10x20 greenhouse's floor had a network of roots underneath the dirt, I shit you not it was like a fucking spider web of a root system. I'd never seen anything like it.
I still lament that I couldn't do a second grow in that location due to the possibilities I never got to see come to life.
No problems whatsoever with food shortages/microbes either, due to my weekly top dresses. Twice a week when July hit, actually.
Grow I'm working on now will burying the pots halfway into the ground. Waiting on seeds, they'll go into 5g pots and once the roots fill the pots I'll take them outside to be buried halfway into the ground at which point the outdoor light cycle will eventually trigger flower.
Apologies for the long winded post
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
It was on a chart in Section 8 of the Soil Mixes links you shared. Kind of confusing on the chart, maybe typo?
GrOwThMoNgeR
Well-Known Member
Coco coir so high ph? Considering it's inert and works like hydro is that value right? Most hydro does better at a lower ph.
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
I believe with ph, 7 is "nuetral", basically the middle of the acidic/alkaline scale.
GrOwThMoNgeR
Well-Known Member
Indeed, I was just surprised it was not as acidic as I imagined. I've never grown in coco other than a few clones of powerplant I was given only during veg. They're out in nature atm
in the ground.
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I sounded like captain obvious I don't have any experience with it myself, but might have to give it a try
I don't have any experience with it myself, but might have to give it a try
kratos015
Well-Known Member
That has to be a typo on the peat moss, most sites I've seen show between 100-200 so maybe they meant to put 150 instead of 15?
Truly bizarre, because everything I've read says peat has double CEC as coco and I found more than one site to confirm that as truth. Plus, the amount of people that use peat instead of coco for this exact purpose.
Even more bizarre, some of the links I found say coco has more than peat. So either some people are testing wrong, or there are some other factors at play here that I'm unable to find.
Links below for anyone interested.
link 1
link 2
link 3
Truly bizarre indeed. Until proven otherwise, I'll continue to use peat moss.
But the literal second that someone can conclusively prove that coco has better CEC than peat moss I'm going to switch back.
It took me years, multiple crops/harvests to get the hang of how hydrophobic peat moss is. Peat moss is like some high maintenance shit, looking for any reason to go hydrophobic on you and the instant you slip up on your watering practices you get dry spots.
Coco on the other hand is literally idiot proof in terms of watering. This is why I recommend coco for people new to soil/living organics, because coco is significantly harder to screw up watering with. Once one gets the hang of organics and how they work, then they can explore peat moss until they get the watering down pat.
GrOwThMoNgeR
Well-Known Member
I have hard water and just used canna terra and they filled out perfectly. No problems except it needs watered literally everyday. I did half-strength nutes to keep the EC down and they were happy but unfortunately spider mites came with them. It took me 2 months of battles and quarantining to finally get rid of them.Sorry if I sounded like captain obvious
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
#%#@!%&& spider mites. Where's the magic schoolbus when you really need it. Shrink my ass down and go Spartan warrior on those bastards. Such a pain.
GrassBurner
Well-Known Member
@kratos015 looks like this article on Kis Organics website confirms your original thought.
Pros and Cons of Peat Moss and Coir
Looks like peat moss has a cec between 100-200, and coco coir is between 40-60. Other than going hydrophobic it looks like peat moss has quite a few advantages.
Pros and Cons of Peat Moss and Coir
Looks like peat moss has a cec between 100-200, and coco coir is between 40-60. Other than going hydrophobic it looks like peat moss has quite a few advantages.