I've been fighting Mn problems since I started organic growing and I think that I solved it.

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I wish I could agree but I feel it's the other way around, toxicities are the problem with your soil IMO.
I hope I'm wrong if being wrong means you eventually get the results you are looking for.
Tell me, which nutrient is toxic in the soil test the he shown us? Which one is so high that it's causing problems??? I'm talking about @NoMoreBottles the soil test the he just shared with us. His phosphorus is low(good) along with other things that are normally toxic like Na and micronutrients like copper and boron.
 

Kushash

Well-Known Member
Tell me, which nutrient is toxic in the soil test the he shown us? Which one is so high that it's causing problems??? I'm talking about @NoMoreBottles the soil test the he just shared with us. His phosphorus is low(good) along with other things that are normally toxic like Na and micronutrients like copper and boron.
I was referring to your soil.
I feel your soil is to high in several elements.
Could be wrong but that's how it appeared to me when I recall seeing your tests.
Phosphorus was off the chart if I recall and the rabbit manure is very high in P.
I've been rooting for you to resolve your soil issue for a long time, something like 18 months IDK I'm bad with time.
Just don't feel it's a deficiency issue.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I was referring to your soil.
I feel your soil is to high in several elements.
Could be wrong but that's how it appeared to me when I recall seeing your tests.
Phosphorus was off the chart if I recall and the rabbit manure is very high in P.
I've been rooting for you to resolve your soil issue for a long time, something like 18 months IDK I'm bad with time.
Just don't feel it's a deficiency issue.
Your right about my soil lol... I'm still dealing with Na issues and I can never seem to get my phosphorus levels lower.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I was referring to your soil.
I feel your soil is to high in several elements.
Could be wrong but that's how it appeared to me when I recall seeing your tests.
Phosphorus was off the chart if I recall and the rabbit manure is very high in P.
I've been rooting for you to resolve your soil issue for a long time, something like 18 months IDK I'm bad with time.
Just don't feel it's a deficiency issue.
Here is my last test, I think that sodium and boron are toxic and P levels are too high also. It's really hard dialing this in because you can't change one thing w/o messing with other things. I don't even use kelp anymore. I did use Canna brand coco coir and they said that they don't use salt water during the harvesting process, but I found out that coconuts grown on the coast can be high in sodium anyways. It's gotta be where my extra sodium is coming from. Anyways, I just got this test back in a couple of days ago and I haven't posted it yet. I stopped using Big-6 and chelates and used only Mn sulfate but I think that extra B and Zn came from the Big-6. Sorry, I was using your quote to update my post. I don't claim to be an expert or anything and I'm open to constructive criticism lol.
DSC01234.JPGDSC01234.JPG Thumbnail expands better.
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
Your right about my soil lol... I'm still dealing with Na issues and I can never seem to get my phosphorus levels lower.
Could it be you're using a lot of rich waste for your compost / soil?
Animal / fruit and vegetable waste, stuff like that?
Maybe more brown material needed?
 

NoMoreBottles

Well-Known Member
Got my mix all set to go for next test which I will send out in 3-4 weeks. After running alot of water through in an attempt to leach out some of the excess calcium, magnesium, sodium and sulfur I added about 10% more peat, some extra perlite and a light addition of greensand. Hopefully things will look better.
 

Bungalow

Well-Known Member
Your right about my soil lol... I'm still dealing with Na issues and I can never seem to get my phosphorus levels lower.
Do you use cover crops? You could search for crops that pick up those specific elements in abundance, grow a cycle, and discard them to remove some of the excess. I would also flush with gypsum to drop that K a bit, and completely avoid any P for some time. Make the P that is there available with ferments: em1, fpj, ffe, etc. Some fish aminos would really help out with nutrient availability as well. S and Na can be flushed with water. Gypsum will really help with the Na.
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
Do you use cover crops? You could search for crops that pick up those specific elements in abundance, grow a cycle, and discard them to remove some of the excess. I would also flush with gypsum to drop that K a bit, and completely avoid any P for some time. Make the P that is there available with ferments: em1, fpj, ffe, etc. Some fish aminos would really help out with nutrient availability as well. S and Na can be flushed with water. Gypsum will really help with the Na.
I believe the soil savvy test results show what is available to the plant and not just physically in the soil.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Here is my last test, I think that sodium and boron are toxic and P levels are too high also. It's really hard dialing this in because you can't change one thing w/o messing with other things. I don't even use kelp anymore. I did use Canna brand coco coir and they said that they don't use salt water during the harvesting process, but I found out that coconuts grown on the coast can be high in sodium anyways. It's gotta be where my extra sodium is coming from. Anyways, I just got this test back in a couple of days ago and I haven't posted it yet. I stopped using Big-6 and chelates and used only Mn sulfate but I think that extra B and Zn came from the Big-6. Sorry, I was using your quote to update my post. I don't claim to be an expert or anything and I'm open to constructive criticism lol.
View attachment 4457116View attachment 4457116 Thumbnail expands better.
Did you say you switched to organic soil? From? Did you have these pains before the switch? Why did you give up on foliar feeding your nutrients that were deficient, or did you? Dr. Faust had a good episode on humic substances you might want to check out if you haven't already. Are you using tap water? Have you had that tested?

 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Do you use cover crops?
I'm indoor with Earthboxes right now, but I'm looking into cover crops for my outdoor grow this summer.
I would also flush with gypsum to drop that K a bit, and completely avoid any P for some time.
I think that my boron is high on top of sodium and potassium. I blended in more rock dust(azomite, greensand, oyster shell flour, and basalt) but after reading some benefits of gypsum, I think that I will use some to leach with. I didn't believe in gypsum, but everything that I have been reading about Na and Boron toxicity has said to use gypsum. I have some on hand and I was about to flush it through the soil... My phosphorus input is compost and that is basically all of my macros in this mix, everything else is rock dust and Mn sulfate. I don't even use kelp anymore.
ferments: em1, fpj, ffe, etc.
Right now, I am using a comfrey FPE from build a soil. I'm also using EM-1 in the reservoir of the Earthbox. From the reading that I did last night, I might start making my own FPE out of acid loving plants because plants with lower Ph will have more Mn in the plant tissue. My wife recently made a ferment out of bananas that smelled just like banana bread. I made this FPJ out of a tomato plant in my garden and I was able to harvest a lot of liquid from them, but I haven't had luck with any other plant material. If you know of a good one, let me know. I haven't used comfrey yet.
Some fish aminos would really help out with nutrient availability as well.
I came across a couple of articles that said that adding chelates to micronutrients will make iron more available, which makes Mn less available. So, when dealing with Mn deficiency issues, it's not a good idea to use chelates. I found out the hard way. I'm pretty sure that Amino acids and Humic acids are chelators. For the life of me I couldn't figure out where the extra iron was coming from on the soil tests because I was using Big-6 which didn't have iron, but it did have humic acid for a chelate. It was a complicated lesson that I learned a couple of weeks ago and I often ask myself and my wife if I am making this too complicated. I'm under the impression that the only way to combat Mn def is by foliar feeding.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Did you say you switched to organic soil? From? Did you have these pains before the switch?
I started composting back in 2015 and I made a great compost on my first try and I had a very impressive harvest, but I have been trying to find out what I did right about 4yrs ago. I was very eager on my first try, so I used a lot of inputs like rotten tree bark, tons of leaves, grass clippings, Greensand, and rabbit bedding. I composted for about 12 months, so I think that the greensand had time to break down along with the woody material. I started using greensand again in my compost.
Why did you give up on foliar feeding your nutrients that were deficient, or did you?
I'm using BioMin Booster 153 wich is a micronutrient chelated with fish amino acids.
Dr. Faust had a good episode on humic substances you might want to check out if you haven't already.
Are you talking about the podcast on Kis Organics? I was pretty bummed out by the product that I used from him Big-6. It's a product very similar to TM-7 but without the iron. It was designed for Jeremy Silva at build a soil. Like I said, it had humic acid to chelate the micronutrients, and even though the Big-6 didn't have iron it chelated the iron already in my soil until I had a crazy #. I was left trying to figure out what raised my iron levels when I didn't add iron inputs. Iron is antagonistic with Mn, that's why it is such a big deal. I'm doing everything that I can to combat Mn def.
Are you using tap water? Have you had that tested?
I had my well water tested but I haven't used it an a while. I have about 400-500gal barrels catching rain water. They are 55gal drums, but I'm adding them together.
 

Bungalow

Well-Known Member
I'm indoor with Earthboxes right now, but I'm looking into cover crops for my outdoor grow this summer.

I think that my boron is high on top of sodium and potassium. I blended in more rock dust(azomite, greensand, oyster shell flour, and basalt) but after reading some benefits of gypsum, I think that I will use some to leach with. I didn't believe in gypsum, but everything that I have been reading about Na and Boron toxicity has said to use gypsum. I have some on hand and I was about to flush it through the soil... My phosphorus input is compost and that is basically all of my macros in this mix, everything else is rock dust and Mn sulfate. I don't even use kelp anymore.

Right now, I am using a comfrey FPE from build a soil. I'm also using EM-1 in the reservoir of the Earthbox. From the reading that I did last night, I might start making my own FPE out of acid loving plants because plants with lower Ph will have more Mn in the plant tissue. My wife recently made a ferment out of bananas that smelled just like banana bread. I made this FPJ out of a tomato plant in my garden and I was able to harvest a lot of liquid from them, but I haven't had luck with any other plant material. If you know of a good one, let me know. I haven't used comfrey yet.

I came across a couple of articles that said that adding chelates to micronutrients will make iron more available, which makes Mn less available. So, when dealing with Mn deficiency issues, it's not a good idea to use chelates. I found out the hard way. I'm pretty sure that Amino acids and Humic acids are chelators. For the life of me I couldn't figure out where the extra iron was coming from on the soil tests because I was using Big-6 which didn't have iron, but it did have humic acid for a chelate. It was a complicated lesson that I learned a couple of weeks ago and I often ask myself and my wife if I am making this too complicated. I'm under the impression that the only way to combat Mn def is by foliar feeding.
I would also recommend checking out soluble gypsum - something like Diamond K. Otherwise, it takes some time to break down. Gypsum will strip cations (Ca) and anions (S.) Ca has the strongest charge of all cations, so it breaks apart bonds with Mg, K, etc when flushing. S does the same with Na, nitrates, sulfates. This is an agricultural application, and it is very effective at stripping K and Na. Some people actually "dump" their mix by flushing with say, several tbsp soluble gypsum. This is a sort of reset to flood out excesses and build to a more balanced profile. It's also a tiedjens/albrecht method where you saturate soil with Ca carbonate to 60%+, and then finish with gypsum (up to 85% according to albrecht.) In this system K and P are throttled to the minimum, to ensure calcium is always "available." The analogy I like for this is that your nutrients are basically stored on shelves. The higher your CEC, the deeper the shelf. Deep shelves hold a lot of stuff, but it's not always so easy to get to the stuff in the back. So if 80% of the stuff is calcium, you always have calcium. Then it's just a matter of reading your plants, or applying a known program with known results.

FWIW I came up with this macros formula in my research (this is aimed toward field scale agriculture:) The heavier the mix, the less you need Mg/K
Ca 80-85%, Mg 8-12%, K 4-6%
S=P=K 4-6%

Definitely make your own FPJ/FPE. There are a few ways, cut or mash material first:
1. the old "stick some comfrey in a bucket of water and make diarrhea juice" works well. Some frown on the "pathogenic" microbes involved, but they're acid loving decomposers that prefer a body of water, so in a healthy soil mix they'll be food in no time.

2. em1/AEM(home made em1,) water, and plant material. This is exactly the same as the first, but will have very little if any smell. There will be a large population of LABS, which again will mostly be food.

3. traditional KNF: 1:1 mix of sugar and plant material. The high sugar content suspends the microbes and makes them go to "sleep." Best shelf life, and if you like adding a bit of sugar at certain times it's an added bonus. Ferments made with sugar will be much more acidic. The alcohol formed from the sugar and plant material will extract the water (chlorophyll) from the plants, along with a cocktail of the auxins that were present at the time of extraction (take your material at sunrise, when there's still dew.)

I've been making my own LABS (rice wash,) then you strain and mix the wash with whole milk. This will yield pure LABS, and some free cheese that's kinda like feta to boot. You can then stretch this pure LABS into Activated Essential Microorganisms (AEM,) which has a shorter shelf life but is a brewed up version that will multiple your supply several thousandfold. Good for ~3 months room temp. Highly recommend growing your own comfrey and nettle for these purposes. Use leaves to make growth formulas, and blooms/fruits for flowering/fruiting. Check out Hyroot's guide on here. These are typically used more as soil stimulant and hormone regulators.

So chelates... Yes, chelation will favor certain elements over other, however all organic nitrogen will break down into amino acids and ultimately be chelating. In fact, in organic soil, chelation is occurring basically all of the time. The high amounts of OM we run lends itself to high S, which binds with metals to form saltes. All sulfate form metals are in salt form. We also generally have very high humic/fulvic levels in our mixes. I would definitely avoid overly concentrated sources of chelation, like you are. Those are intended for field production. The aminos I refer to are home made from fish. It's another KNF formula. Mn is highly unavailable in high OM soils, and especially if PH isn't staying on the low side. I think the foliar Mn should be a good short term solution. Just go easy on it, and watch closely.

If you're interested in some good reads, check out JADAM(KNF) and The Intelligent Gardener(soil science.) The methods I've presented are mostly borrowed from KNF/JADAM and high brix gardening.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
If you're interested in some good reads, check out JADAM(KNF) and The Intelligent Gardener(soil science.) The methods I've presented are mostly borrowed from KNF/JADAM and high brix gardening.
Funny story, I own the JADAM book but I'm still very new to the idea and haven't made many recipes. The first FPE that I made smelled so horrible that I thought that I messed up. It was in a 55gal barrel and the lawn actually looked really good where I dumped it lol... The Intelligent gardener is Dr. Steve Solomon and I have been following his work on soil remineralization, so I'm familiar with him. He is the one that got me using BioMin Booster 153 and I think that he had a hand in developing it. I'm not really familiar with high brix methods other than foliar feeding. I've wanted to get more acquainted with high brix because I have been dealing with low micronutrients for a while now.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Just some stuff I found...

Gypsum or any sulfate seems to raise your Fe along with Mn (see attached). Perhaps MO might be of interest.
"
In alkaline and calcareous soils, typically located in semiarid regions, many plant species may exhibit symptoms of iron chlorosis indicated by yellow or pale green leaves with a darker green near the veins. A high pH in such soils usually decreased available iron and this condition was generally the cause of iron chlorosis. In some soils, well supplied with available molybdenum, however, the plants absorbed less iron and became deficient in this nutrient. Uptake of molybdenum by sorghum was decreased by adding gypsum (CaSO4) at a rate of 30 ppm of sulfur. This decrease in molybdenum uptake increased Fe uptake and/or Fe concentrations in sorghum in six test soils and increased the yield. Addition of iron chelate (sequestrene-138 or Fe EDDHA) in separate treatments likewise increased the yields indicating a low supply of native available iron. An addition of gypsum offered a less expensive way, however, to improved the iron supply to plants in these soils. Gypsum also increased magnesium, manganese, and zinc concentrations in the sorghum.
"


CaCO3 might help reduce iron. Fe becomes unusable if high bicarbonate levels (soil liming) are observed.

Screenshot_2020-01-22-10-38-24~2.png

Good luck
 

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Bungalow

Well-Known Member
Funny story, I own the JADAM book but I'm still very new to the idea and haven't made many recipes. The first FPE that I made smelled so horrible that I thought that I messed up. It was in a 55gal barrel and the lawn actually looked really good where I dumped it lol... The Intelligent gardener is Dr. Steve Solomon and I have been following his work on soil remineralization, so I'm familiar with him. He is the one that got me using BioMin Booster 153 and I think that he had a hand in developing it. I'm not really familiar with high brix methods other than foliar feeding. I've wanted to get more acquainted with high brix because I have been dealing with low micronutrients for a while now.
Haha, give it a read, it's awesome for any home scale gardener. I wouldn't worry about the smell as far as use is concerned. Mix with em1/labs when using to quickly deodorize if indoors. I would recommend experimenting with a high(er) calcium mix. Pot up some tomatoes, peppers, or any other heavy feeder in your mix vs a new mix that's shooting for those ballpark ratios I suggested and see how it goes. There are many ways to go about this, and soil structure is also a factor (how it drains, how fast it dries, oxygen levels, etc that all affect ph[which can vary greatly from point A to point B within a pot])

Run some experiments with the gypsum.. get a few pots, 1 tbsp in the first, 2 in the 2nd, and up to 4 at most. Then run RO or low ppm water through. Try planting something expendable in that and see how it grows. Watch for deficiencies.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Haha, give it a read, it's awesome for any home scale gardener. I wouldn't worry about the smell as far as use is concerned. Mix with em1/labs when using to quickly deodorize if indoors. I would recommend experimenting with a high(er) calcium mix. Pot up some tomatoes, peppers, or any other heavy feeder in your mix vs a new mix that's shooting for those ballpark ratios I suggested and see how it goes. There are many ways to go about this, and soil structure is also a factor (how it drains, how fast it dries, oxygen levels, etc that all affect ph[which can vary greatly from point A to point B within a pot])

Run some experiments with the gypsum.. get a few pots, 1 tbsp in the first, 2 in the 2nd, and up to 4 at most. Then run RO or low ppm water through. Try planting something expendable in that and see how it grows. Watch for deficiencies.
I added more rockdust: greensand, basalt, azomite, oyster shell flour, and gypsum. I probably wasn't using enough in my original mix. I was using less rock dust to keep the Ph low and Mn more available. I was also hoping that low calcium wouldn't interfere with potassium levels, but it looks like I was in excess. I was reading that you can achieve higher brix levels by having more K than N. I was having trouble with low potassium for a while, but I think that I got it down now lol. I had to stop using kelp because of the sodium.
I'm glad that you are here because I was running out of people to talk with about this. My wife is in her 2nd year of horticulture school, but they are not really teaching organic methods at her school. She said that they used to compost, but they had budget cuts. I didn't think that compost costed anything, but who knows.
I came across something that I felt was important the other day. I was reading about Ph levels and the availability of Mn. I read that acid loving plants will have higher amounts of Mn present in the plant. It gave me an idea to compost or FPE acid loving plants. Another idea was to grow comfrey but keep the Ph lower to help with the uptake of Mn. My wife has been talking about blueberry plants since we moved in here and it might be time to really start some along with some rhododendrons and azaleas.
 

Freedom seed

Well-Known Member
Just a thought. GMO beans often show manganese deficiency. There is some research out there that shows glyphosate allows fusarium to proliferate, and the fusarium alters the soil redox (eH) upwards. The redox shift changes the valency of the Mn to +3, rendering its compounds insoluble. Then they sell a foliar spray of Mn to fix it.:spew:
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
@MustangStudFarm

I just wanted to offer a different perspective, which you're likely already well aware of, but feel the need to mention it.
It's more of a question than a suggestion to act on.

Organic indoor container gardening really isn't my forte, but I enjoy outdoor organic no-till very much.
Outdoors I try to stick to about a 30 to 1, carbon to nitrogen ratio. A ratio you're probably already well aware of for composting.
It's a ratio I have tended to always stick with in the no-till garden as well. My green is mostly manure and brown is mostly mulch.
I've found if I don't keep regularly adding a layer of mulch, things don't breakdown as fast and i'll start getting deficiency / lockout.
Ime a fairly ph neutral brown material source, keeps excessive amounts of things like sodium at bay. I virtually use it as a buffer for the medium.

Please, hear me out here. Would it be possible you're not adding ample brown material back to your soil, when you re-amend, before you compost / cook your recycled soil?
Ime outdoors at least, if I'm not adding ample brown back to the soil, I'm likely to get elevated levels of Na and toxic amounts of micros / macros. It gives fantastic aeration / drainage and water holding capacity as well. Gives the soil a very spongy texture.

Just felt I could offer a different perspective. I'm not sure I've ever had a micro deficiency in soil so to speak and have always been told it's relatively rare. That's not to say it isn't true in your case.
 
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