I've been fighting Mn problems since I started organic growing and I think that I solved it.

Bungalow

Well-Known Member
This is basically what my wife said that her professors told her. However, I have never came across a bag soil that worked half as well as my 1st batch of compost.
I'm not a fan of conventional either. I find the end results to be lacking in phytochemical constituents because I'm under the impression that soil biology and organic chemistry plays a role in the quantity and diversity of these compounds - phenols, aldehydes, alkaloids, flavonoids, glucosinolates, isoprenoids, esters, quinones etc. I think conventional can also achieve this, but not without incorporating more complexity into their soil mix, and putting more care into the biology of the soil rather than purely the chemical inputs. I would argue it's even more important for conventional gardeners to consider this, because their practices are often actively degrading the soil life and/or structure. I do think organics and conventional models should be less polarizing and learn from one another. Both are typically quite extremist and reject the others' existence in more radical circles. There's a lot to be learned from conventional agricultural chemistry, though not all of it will pertain to what we're doing.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I'm not a fan of conventional either. I find the end results to be lacking in phytochemical constituents because I'm under the impression that soil biology and organic chemistry plays a role in the quantity and diversity of these compounds - phenols, aldehydes, alkaloids, flavonoids, glucosinolates, isoprenoids, esters, quinones etc. I think conventional can also achieve this, but not without incorporating more complexity into their soil mix, and putting more care into the biology of the soil rather than purely the chemical inputs. I would argue it's even more important for conventional gardeners to consider this, because their practices are often actively degrading the soil life and/or structure. I do think organics and conventional models should be less polarizing and learn from one another. Both are typically quite extremist and reject the others' existence in more radical circles. There's a lot to be learned from conventional agricultural chemistry, though not all of it will pertain to what we're doing.
I listened to a podcast with Clackamas Coots and Tad Hussey(Kis Organics) and they had nothing nice to say about bag soil. They said everything from it's recycled commercial soil to it's saw dust from industrial machines. Saying that, I just bought a couple of bags of "Happy Frog" to get some clones and seeds started...
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Also, I have a family member that told me that he has 4yr old wood chips from a tree trimmer that passed through his neighborhood. From what I understand, they are more than happy to dump the wood chips so they don't have to drive them to town. We live in the sticks in Oklahoma. Anyways, I think that it could be the best compost that I have come across. It's pure wood chips with nothing added.
 

Bungalow

Well-Known Member
I listened to a podcast with Clackamas Coots and Tad Hussey(Kis Organics) and they had nothing nice to say about bag soil. They said everything from it's recycled commercial soil to it's saw dust from industrial machines. Saying that, I just bought a couple of bags of "Happy Frog" to get some clones and seeds started...
When referring to conventional I mean their inputs - chemical salt formulas. Bagged mixes are definitely cheaply made, and often come with fungus gnats or worse. Even if I were to practice conventional, I would make my own medium.

I would use those chips in a heartbeat. I get a lot of chips for free from local tree services. Try giving a few a call, if you're on their route they'll usually drop them off for free. I have a few 2 year piles that are completely loaded with mycelium and all sorts of arthropods/worms.
 

NoMoreBottles

Well-Known Member
I would just focus on getting your micronutrients, everything else seems fine really. What I have learned from these test is to look for deficiencies, abundance don't always hurt.
Got my mix all set to go for next test which I will send out in 3-4 weeks. After running alot of water through in an attempt to leach out some of the excess calcium, magnesium, sodium and sulfur I added about 10% more peat, some extra perlite and a light addition of greensand. Hopefully things will look better.
Got my re-test results back after doing the above. There was a delay in getting the results back due to an instrument problem they had which they said has been fixed. With the exception of N and B all my numbers went up, ph is exactly the same. Calcium and sulfur went way up. The sample was actually taken on and sent out the 11th not 8th so this batch had about 4 weeks to sit. I was not expecting Ca and S to rise like that. I dont mean to hijack your thread. It seems the majority of the time I search this site I find myself reading through your posts.Soil Savvy Test 2-8-20 crop.jpgSoil Savvy Test 12-11-19 crop.jpg
 
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MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Got my re-test results back after doing the above. There was a delay in getting the results back due to an instrument problem they had which they said has been fixed. With the exception of N and B all my numbers went up, ph is exactly the same. Calcium and sulfur went way up. The sample was actually taken on and sent out the 11th not 8th so this batch had about 4 weeks to sit. I was not expecting Ca and S to rise like that. I dont mean to hijack your thread. It seems the majority of the time I search this site I find myself reading through your posts.
Man, this stuff is difficult to do!!! I'm going to guess that you used kelp and maybe some rock dust to increase your micronutrients, but it didn't work? It seems like the only thing that I was getting from kelp was Cu and Na with a little touch of K. Sulfur don't really do anything but lower your Ph, so it only affects things via Ph. I've been trying to keep my Ph a little lower to help with micronutrient availability.
 

NoMoreBottles

Well-Known Member
Man, this stuff is difficult to do!!! I'm going to guess that you used kelp and maybe some rock dust to increase your micronutrients, but it didn't work? It seems like the only thing that I was getting from kelp was Cu and Na with a little touch of K. Sulfur don't really do anything but lower your Ph, so it only affects things via Ph. I've been trying to keep my Ph a little lower to help with micronutrient availability.
I feel like the more I read the more difficult it gets. Perhaps I am over thinking all this. I added about 5 cups of down to earth kelp meal to what ended up being about 120 gallons of mix with the added peat and perlite. Only other addition was around 3 pounds of greensand. Cant think of why my calcium and sulfur would have spiked like that? I moved a lady into a larger pot today and used this mix to see how she does. Im worried that my calcium being so high is going to cause me continued problems.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I feel like the more I read the more difficult it gets. Perhaps I am over thinking all this. I added about 5 cups of down to earth kelp meal to what ended up being about 120 gallons of mix with the added peat and perlite. Only other addition was around 3 pounds of greensand. Cant think of why my calcium and sulfur would have spiked like that? I moved a lady into a larger pot today and used this mix to see how she does. Im worried that my calcium being so high is going to cause me continued problems.
Yes, it's complicated and I still haven't figured out how to get micronutrients at a good level. High calcium is probably the culprit for you low B and C also affects potassium, but that don't look like a problem here. I think that your biggest problem is how low your micronutrients are. I've been following Dr. Steve Solomon and he said that cannabis is Mn sensitive, meaning that a def could be devastating. That is where the necrotic spots and burned leaf tips come from, micronutrient deficiency. Mn def will give you yellowing and necrotic spots and Zn def will look like burned leaf tips.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Also, with high sodium your plants will always look thirsty and droopy. Your plant will absorb cations without discrepancy between Ca, K, Mg, and Na. Your plant cannot tell cations apart. Sodium is detrimental to seedlings and germination.
 
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