Young seedling/plants falling over

[GreenGro]

As said, 20-25ml per 40mm cube per day is a good starting point.

Al (or anyone really), Can you help me out here, I got my new seeds and am about to try again. I have put 3 seeds on a wet paper towel in a bag i've blown in and sealed with a bag sealer waiting for them to crack.

I have put 4 35mm rockwool plugs to soak in a solution ph 5.2 (thinking the rockwool will raise this up to about 5.5 - 5.8 and added some regen-a-root.

The weight of the plugs dry (in the plastic square each comes in) is 4.5 grams

When the seeds crack I will shake out the excess water outta my plugs then weigh them then put 3 seeds into 3 cubes. I will put the 4 cubes into the propagator and ater 24 hours will weigh the cubes again - I figure by weighing the 3 with the seeds in and the one without I will be able to see how much the plant is taking up and how much is going by evapouration.

Now does this sound sensible? If so how much over the evaporated amount should I be allowing for the plants to take up daily?

Saying that I suppose by doing it this way I will get a fair idea of how much water is going to evapouration and how much is going to feeding the plant? In which case I will report back.

Any advice/critisism appreciated fellas.

 

[laskabud]

Okay, listen up: see if you can find a product called Oasis at a local hydro shop. It is a seed/cutting starting material that comes in sheets of 30 or 40 little 1 1/2" cubes with a hole in each one. These work much better than rock wool for many reasons. I would put two more holes in it and don't use the one in the middle. That way you can get two seedlings per cube instead of just one. I use a chop stick to make the holes. When rooted, you simply cut each cube in half diagonally and plant both seedlings. When using seeds you simply drop a seed into each hole, do not cover the hole, keep the cubes damp 24/7 until roots are seen sticking out of the cube, transplant. This way you don't touch the seedlings at all. Same with cuts. You dip one into hormone and gently press it into the hole in the cube so that you can feel the stem sink into the foam material at the bottom of the hole. Don't cover the hole, leave it open for Oxy. Keep the cube damp, etc. When rooted, transplant. No touching the plant at all. As for droopy plants, they are reaching for light. Once they get dead looking, they are too stunted to mess with. Ditch 'em, start over. If they are still healthy green and healthy leaves, you may get away with proping them up but it sounds like a transplant is in store right away. As for fans, it sounds a bit late to get them stronger with wind. You need the gentle fan breeze on them from the get go for turgor pressure to make the stems more woody and to keep them ventilated as they respire. If you have roots showing, transplant them. Your "tomato" plants are the type of weed that can be planted deep, meaning bury them up the stem to basically prop them up. They will grow roots all along this buried stem. If there are any leaf nodes where you are going to bury them, simply pinch-off any leaves close to the stem. Bury them almost up to the good leaves nearer the top. Keep them damp but not soggy, also a reason for the droops in seedlings. Good luck!

 

[GreenGro]

Thanks for the advice laska, but....

I already have my seeds on a wet paper towel and rockwool plugs soaking in solution so its a bit late to look at other routes unless of course this lots goes wrong, something I am not contemplating at the mo.

I am just trying to figure out the right watering schedule for the seeds at the moment. Seeds still ain't cracked at all yet but its not 24 hours yet, their at about 80-81 degrees is this an ok heat for germing seeds?

Thanks

 

[beenthere donethat]

Heya GG.

If it were me I'd FLUSH the cubes with plain (tap) water and then resoak them in a new 5.5 solution. They are full of limestone dust that will merely be placed into solution if you "just" soak em. Flushing them with water rids the cube of the limestone dust BEFORE soaking. If you just drop em in the bucket the limestone dust merely goes into solution and is reabsorbed by the cube. Make any sense?

The failure to flush is THE reason the pH fluctuates (rises) with rockwool in many grows.

just a thought from a troubled mind

bt dt

 

[GreenGro]

Nice, thanks for the advice, I'll get my ph meter out now and test the water their in to see whats going on, if its gone to high I'll wash em and put them in a new solution cos these seeds ain't cracked yet so plenty of time.

Still the question remains though - does anyone know how much water a day young seeds then plants will need/use aside from evapouration?

 

[GreenGro]

Heya GG.

If it were me I'd FLUSH the cubes with plain (tap) water and then resoak them in a new 5.5 solution. They are full of limestone dust that will merely be placed into solution if you "just" soak em. Flushing them with water rids the cube of the limestone dust BEFORE soaking. If you just drop em in the bucket the limestone dust merely goes into solution and is reabsorbed by the cube. Make any sense?

The failure to flush is THE reason the pH fluctuates (rises) with rockwool in many grows.

just a thought from a troubled mind

bt dt

I just checked the ph of the water my rockwool has been soaking in overnight and its raised it from 5.2 to 5.7 which is kind of what I had planned on - is everybody happy with a ph of 5.7 for starting seeds?

 

[laskabud]

Greengrow, you are getting tons of advice, some good, some not so good. Let me give you my two cents worth. Firstly, I use Oasis Hydro cubes Oasis® Horticubes which are much easier to use than rock wool. This is not rocket science as you are working with WEEDS! Don't try to be so damned scientific or make it too involved and hard.
1. pre-soak the cubes (this is where Oasis shines!)
2. drop a "dry" seed into each cube in the pre-made holes. (I add two holes per cube to get two gurlz per cube instead of one and cut them in half when rooted well and ready for transplanting.)
3. DO NOT cover the hole, but leave open, just make sure seed is at very bottom in contact with foam and moisture.
4. Place cubes into a seedling "flat" with a clear, tall cover.
5. Place flat on a seedling heat mat, available at most garden suppliers.
6. Keep moist, not soggy, until rootage appears from the cubes (a week or so) You want it to be misty inside this cover like a mini rain forest, eh? When adding water, just lift the cover a smidge, dribble in a bit of water so all cubes are touched, not drowned, with water. Keep under flouros with the bulbs almost touching the plastic cover. They don't put off enough heat to burn the cover and you need it right down close to the sprouts or cuts. 18/6 hrs.
7. When well rooted, place each cube into your grow medium, and you are off and running.
8. Same for cuttings, just dip stem into hormone, press gently into hole in cube so you can feel stem bury into the bottom of the hole, being very careful not to bend or break stem in this process. The woodier the stem the better for this purpose. Place in seedling flat, cover, keep warm and watered. You will have roots in a week or so.
This method will help you not waste those valuable seeds. Don't put them into water, or under a paper towel as every time you touch them, you run the risk of killing them. Don't try to "germinate" the seeds. Just place them in wet cubes. With the cubes, you never touch the plant after placing seeds or cuts into them. All this poop about ph this and ml that is a waste of time. You don't need to worry about ph when germinating seeds, unless you have acid coming out of your tap!! Only when you have them in the final medium and that is where rock wool sucks as it wreaks havoc with ph. Oasis cubes don't affect it at all. Same with the large rock wool blocks as they are full of ph shit that continuously leaches into your solution.

All this stuff about weighing the cube and measuring and ph-ing the water when sprouting is all mumbo jumbo. Jeez some of you guys make this out to be so hard and it is not, really! Forget about all the science shit and try my suggestion. Try it with rock wool cubes if you must but the Oasis is by far easier to use and you can buy it online. Soak a cube, drop in a seed, keep cube damp and in a clear covered seedling tray on a heat mat and under flouros for a week to two. You will have roots crawling all over the tray and all you have to do is transplant the whole thing into your final grow, whether it be dirt of hydro. I have done this thousands of times with near 100% success, all things considered. I do it with tomatoes, cuccumbers, peppers, and tons of other plants. It works and it's simple and cheap!

 

[GreenGro]

Greengrow, you are getting tons of advice, some good, some not so good. Let me give you my two cents worth. Firstly, I use Oasis Hydro cubes Oasis® Horticubes which are much easier to use than rock wool. This is not rocket science as you are working with WEEDS! Don't try to be so damned scientific or make it too involved and hard.
1. pre-soak the cubes (this is where Oasis shines!)
2. drop a "dry" seed into each cube in the pre-made holes. (I add two holes per cube to get two gurlz per cube instead of one and cut them in half when rooted well and ready for transplanting.)
3. DO NOT cover the hole, but leave open, just make sure seed is at very bottom in contact with foam and moisture.
4. Place cubes into a seedling "flat" with a clear, tall cover.
5. Place flat on a seedling heat mat, available at most garden suppliers.
6. Keep moist, not soggy, until rootage appears from the cubes (a week or so) You want it to be misty inside this cover like a mini rain forest, eh? When adding water, just lift the cover a smidge, dribble in a bit of water so all cubes are touched, not drowned, with water. Keep under flouros with the bulbs almost touching the plastic cover. They don't put off enough heat to burn the cover and you need it right down close to the sprouts or cuts. 18/6 hrs.
7. When well rooted, place each cube into your grow medium, and you are off and running.
8. Same for cuttings, just dip stem into hormone, press gently into hole in cube so you can feel stem bury into the bottom of the hole, being very careful not to bend or break stem in this process. The woodier the stem the better for this purpose. Place in seedling flat, cover, keep warm and watered. You will have roots in a week or so.
This method will help you not waste those valuable seeds. Don't put them into water, or under a paper towel as every time you touch them, you run the risk of killing them. Don't try to "germinate" the seeds. Just place them in wet cubes. With the cubes, you never touch the plant after placing seeds or cuts into them. All this poop about ph this and ml that is a waste of time. You don't need to worry about ph when germinating seeds, unless you have acid coming out of your tap!! Only when you have them in the final medium and that is where rock wool sucks as it wreaks havoc with ph. Oasis cubes don't affect it at all. Same with the large rock wool blocks.

Hey laska, thanks for the advice again but the only point your missing a bit is that my seeds are already on a paper towel (a method most seem to advocate) and I have rockwool cubes which are soaking right now so whilst I could follow your advice next time I am stuck with my current plan for now

one thing i would like to clarify is tho< do you suggest that i leave the hole in the rockwool plug open? because every guide i have read and vid i have watched says to gently cover the hole over

i know i am being a bit technical perhaps but i killed £50 worth of seeds last time some say by over watering but from what i can see of it it was under watering. THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN! I hope

 

[laskabud]

I leave the hole open on all plantings, whether clones or seeds to allow Oxygen to get to the starts. You run the risk of killing the sprout or cutting by closing off the hole. They need Oxy right from the get-go. As for the paper towel, if they have not already broken open, drop them into your cubes now. Use sterilized tweezers for this. Don't use your bare hands! If they have already germinated, you can very carefully place them in enlarged holes in your cubes, once again with tweezers and be careful not to touch the root or break it when placing in the cube. I use a cheap chop stick to make an enlarged, elongated hole in the cube and gently lay the germinated seed into it. That's hard to do though as that root is very susceptible to damage. If you place the seed in the bottom of the hole in the cube and make sure it is contact at the bottom of the hole and keep the cube damp, all will germinate provided they are all viable seeds?????

 

[GreenGro]

Thanks again

Following your last reply I thought what the hell (even though most say germ in towels) I'll do what you said, I have shock all the excess water out of my plugs and estimate I have about 21ml of water in each cube.

I will weigh at the same time tomorrow to figure out how much of this water has been taken up and as I have one cube in there without a seed I will be able to figure out how much is being taken up by evapouration and how much by the seed and subsequently plant once it starts growing. This will enable me to perfect the right amount of water to add each day to keep the cubes not too wet and not too dry - technical I know, perhaps unnecessary in others opinion but I don't want to screw up again and in any case its no trouble.

I am putting each cube in its own tray and will feed them by adding the appropriate amount of water in the tray so the cube sucks the water up thus encouraging the roots to grow downward searching for the moisture - does this sound a sensible enough approach?

Thanks again for the help

 

[GreenGro]

Having planted my uncracked seeds (pointed end down, as far as I could tell) in my damp rockwool cubes a qurter inch or so of white is coming out of the top - now I don't know too much about this but they look like roots.

Is there any possibility that (even if i put the seeds in the wrong way up) that the root would grow out of the top of the cube?

And if so what shal I do? turn them the other way up

Or is all of this just a panic and should a white stem bit come through 1st?

Thanks for the help

 

[laskabud]

Thanks again

Following your last reply I thought what the hell (even though most say germ in towels) I'll do what you said, I have shock all the excess water out of my plugs and estimate I have about 21ml of water in each cube.

I will weigh at the same time tomorrow to figure out how much of this water has been taken up and as I have one cube in there without a seed I will be able to figure out how much is being taken up by evapouration and how much by the seed and subsequently plant once it starts growing. This will enable me to perfect the right amount of water to add each day to keep the cubes not too wet and not too dry - technical I know, perhaps unnecessary in others opinion but I don't want to screw up again and in any case its no trouble.

I am putting each cube in its own tray and will feed them by adding the appropriate amount of water in the tray so the cube sucks the water up thus encouraging the roots to grow downward searching for the moisture - does this sound a sensible enough approach?

Thanks again for the help

My God you make this harder than it needs to be. Whoever told you to measure the water and the uptake of a seedling and all that ph'ing of the water with seedlings, etc. is making life very stressful for you and everyone else that follows that stuff. I am sure it works but it is waaaaay tooooo much for what you are doing. Growing a weed! Forget all that crap about weighing your water and checking it's ph. Just keep the cube damp while sprouting a seed or a cutting. Forget how much fucking water you put in, just keep 'em damp until transplanting. A covered flat with a heat mat underneath is paramount for seedlings or cuttings. You can use cheap 24" flour'os for this process, keeping the big lights for veg and flower. Keep the light right down to your clear cover and they won't reach for light and get all stringy. You can put as many as 50 or 60 cuttings or seedlings in a single flat, just keep the cubes damp during the whole process. As for making the roots grow down to water is bullshit. Roots are going to go where they want and you don't want to mess with the roots. Let 'em go where they want. Keep the cube damp and roots will come out all over it. That's what you want. Lots of roots as that is what makes for a large, healthy plant. And no nutes in the germination process or rooting of cuttings. That most often kills them. Just tap water. If you are worried about chlorine in your tap water, just let an open container of that water sit overnight on your counter and use it the next day. Cl will dissipate from an open container. Remember, keep the cubes damp all the time, don't let them dry out, ever. It is okay to overwater them a bit at this stage. I just open up my cover, dribble in a bit of water so all cubes are touched by water, 24/7, and never dry out. With a heat mat under them, you will be amazed at the roots you get in a week to two weeks. They will be growing into the next cube. You can pull them apart gently or cut them apart with a sharp blade. I put two holes in the Oasis cubes and cut them in half when the cuttings have rooted well and are ready for transplanting. Greengro, trust me on this, you are going too far with all the scientific crap. Just make life simple and they will grow! Rock wool is a ph nightmare so get rid of it as soon as you can move onto some other medium. I love those Oasis cubes and they can be transplanted into Hydroton clay balls, large rock wool blocks, or soil. They allow roots to grow much easier and faster than rock wool cubes.

 

[laskabud]

Having planted my uncracked seeds (pointed end down, as far as I could tell) in my damp rockwool cubes a qurter inch or so of white is coming out of the top - now I don't know too much about this but they look like roots.

Is there any possibility that (even if i put the seeds in the wrong way up) that the root would grow out of the top of the cube?

And if so what shal I do? turn them the other way up

Or is all of this just a panic and should a white stem bit come through 1st?

Thanks for the help

Back in the 60's, yes WAAAAAY back then, some guy came out with a book about growing weed. In it he told of placing the seed in such a way that when it opens up, the root will curl down and the stem end will unfurl and exit the soil. Well, in a perfect ANAL world, maybe! But in our world, you can pretty much dump that little ole seed down the hole, keep it damp, and if it is a viable seed, it should soften it's shell and emerge. What you are seeing as something mistaken for a root may in fact be this unfurling which when first coming out of soil with no light, will be a white (ish) curled little thing and as soon as it sees light, the photosynthesis process kicks in and it turns green, the stem straightens up and there are the first leaves. I doubt you have a seed in upside down and therefore a root coming out of the top of your cube. By the time you read this, it should be green with a couple of little roundish leaves. If not, I have no idea what you may be seeing. Godzilla reborn, maybe? Anyway, don't panic, there is a learning curve with a green thumb and remember, it is just a weed! All this is another reason I prefer Oasis is the fact that it is a softer material than rock wool and easier for the sprout to emerge. I also think it a better idea to leave the hole open, with seed or cutting. It allows oxy to get to both right away and promotes faster, stronger sprout growth which equates to root growth. Other than that, nothing fancy, no measuring, nada. Stow and grow!

 

[GreenGro]

My God you make this harder than it needs to be. Whoever told you to measure the water and the uptake of a seedling and all that ph'ing of the water with seedlings, etc. is making life very stressful for you and everyone else that follows that stuff. quote]

Its not really stressful weighing the cubes to make sure i don't over/under water but thanks for the advice anyhow

 

[GreenGro]

Back in the 60's, yes WAAAAAY back then, some guy came out with a book about growing weed. In it he told of placing the seed in such a way that when it opens up, the root will curl down and the stem end will unfurl and exit the soil. Well, in a perfect ANAL world, maybe! But in our world, you can pretty much dump that little ole seed down the hole, keep it damp, and if it is a viable seed, it should soften it's shell and emerge. What you are seeing as something mistaken for a root may in fact be this unfurling which when first coming out of soil with no light, will be a white (ish) curled little thing and as soon as it sees light, the photosynthesis process kicks in and it turns green, the stem straightens up and there are the first leaves. I doubt you have a seed in upside down and therefore a root coming out of the top of your cube. By the time you read this, it should be green with a couple of little roundish leaves. If not, I have no idea what you may be seeing. Godzilla reborn, maybe? Anyway, don't panic, there is a learning curve with a green thumb and remember, it is just a weed! All this is another reason I prefer Oasis is the fact that it is a softer material than rock wool and easier for the sprout to emerge. I also think it a better idea to leave the hole open, with seed or cutting. It allows oxy to get to both right away and promotes faster, stronger sprout growth which equates to root growth. Other than that, nothing fancy, no measuring, nada. Stow and grow!

It was the root as I pulled the cube apart and put it in the right way, got it under some light and sure enough as you said there were a couple of small leaves by the end of the day.

Thanks

 

[laskabud]

Greengro, really don't waste your time weighing and measuring water to the cubes, just keep them damp 24/7 and it sure helps to have them in a covered tray with a heat mat underneath. This creates a foggy/misty environment inside the cover and that's what you want. You will be amazed, and you may have time for a life! Really, all you do is add a bit of water to the tray when you notice it is dry. Don't let the cubes dry out but keep them damp. You don't want them floating in the tray. With heat, a light of any kind and kept damp, you will have roots all over the tray in two weeks or less and should have total success with seed germinating and cuttings later on. Play with some tomato seeds or some such plant to get some practice with all this. Then use your expensive seeds. If you get away from rock wool, you won't have to be concerned with ph and ml's. You do have to pay close attention to ppm's when mixing your nutes and you have to be careful not to over water your plants early on as root/stem rot can be a problem. Good luck, have fun.

 

[GreenGro]

Greengro, really don't waste your time weighing and measuring water to the cubes You will be amazed, and you may have time for a life!

I do appreciate all your advice but how long do you think it takes me to pop a couple of cube on the scales to keep an eye, 30 seconds maybe.

Plenty of time for me to get on with my life, which at the moment if full to the frickin brim

 

[GreenGro]

Another question too

I have my cubes in a heated propagator with a 125w cfl directly above the cover, the temp in there with the propagator switched on is about 90-95 degrees, with the propagator off its around 78-80, should I leave it on or off? is 90-95 a bit hot?


Thanks

 

[GreenGro]

I'll take the silence then that no one knows

 

[JoeBlo]

well i'm a newbie but from what i read its a little hot... i think the perfect spot is 80-85 and you don't want the temp to drop less than 10 degrees.... but i don't think it's THAT important... but i maybe wrong.... but 95 i think is hot

i used the rockwool cubes and evne tho it feels dry and looks dry ontop thats just cuz of the lights inside it's actually not that wet.... what i did was leave the rockwool cubes sitting in the slightest amount of water in a base... i'm talkin slight water... you know how the rockwool cubes have some kind of chanels on the bottom?? well those channels were touching the water but not in it and the higher part of the channel was not in the water at all...

then every other day i watered them from the top slightly but i didn't over water... i found out watering everyday is not good no matter what almost.... keep the plants close to the light 2-3 inches and water every other day when they start turning into plants instead of sprouts you'll be able to tell a little better

good luck...

check out my grow journal