Hydroponics Questions - Algae, Beneficial Bact, Enzymes, Sterilization, etc

RFFT

Member
Experience:
  • 3 decades
  • aero, hydro, soil
  • indoor, greenhouse, outdoor

Current System:
  • Greenhouse
  • Light Assist
  • Light Dep
  • Large Scale NFT 24 hr Recirculatory Feed System w/ multiple zones running different nutrient lines & recipes
  • Automated EC Dosing & pH management (freshly calibrated)
  • H2O chiller system in operation - water temps at constant 68 degrees day & night
  • Resi Size - 350+/- gallons
  • Nutrients - mostly GenHydro FloraDuo & Cutting Edge Solutions
  • DNA - various
Ok... so now you got an idea of my background & system....

PROBLEMS:
  • Note: keep in mind that I have many zones independent of each other running at the same time. All variables are controlled so it is very easy to pinpoint cause/effect.
  • Algae - normally, with NFT, eliminating light pollution in the NFT system is impossible. Algae will grow, and it's not the biggest problem in the world. But it has been an issue with clogging my feed tubes. So I would like to run a "dead resi", as in, full synthetic nutrients and no living organic matter in my system. That way the tubes stay clean and flowing properly. Im spending way too much time unclogging the tubes on a weekly basis with slime/algae that builds up over a few weeks.
  • H2O2 - I attempted to use peroxide (alchemist brand) at a dosage rate of 500ml to the 350 gallon system. This is appx 1/4 the recommended dose. Within 5 minutes 1100 freshly transplanted baby plants wilted and died. I contacted the makers of the product and they said that was about 10x the dosage rate they would use on live plants and that their label specifically only recommends to use as a sterilization agent in between grow cycles. The label actually says that it can be used every four days. When I mentioned this to their rep, he began to stumble on his words. Needless to say, I no longer feel comfortable using this product for anything but sterilization in between grow cycles.
  • Physan 20 - my next attempt at preventative management of the algae was to add Physan 20. It worked well at sterilization of the system (killing off any algae prior to flushing the system). I then added it again to a new zone of freshly transplanted babies. I did so at a rate of 2 tablespoons per 350 gallon system. This resulted in the babies wilting and developing a white slime/sludge at the roots. See attached picture, you can see the before & after. Nearly every feed tube was clogged with this same matter, way worse than any algae outbreak I've seen 6-7 weeks into a run.
  • System is fully flushed as to remove the Physan 20
  • Beneficial Bacteria - Botanicare Hydroguard was then added to the system to heal the roots (assuming the slime is root rot of some sort?) at a dosage rate of 1 liter / 350 gallon system.
SOLUTIONS?
  • I need a long term solution to algae management, while also understanding sterilization, beneficial bacteria, and enzymes. Any and all input is welcome.
  • Physan 20 - where did I go wrong here? Two different grow shops told me this product was completely safe to use with living plants.
  • Botanicare Hydroguard or GenHydro DEFGUARD - both are Beneficial Bacteria (same active ingredient: Bacillus Amyloliquefaciens) to different degrees of potency. It is my understanding that these will help get my babies back to good root health. Correct me if I am wrong.
  • Cannazym - I picked up some CANNA Cannazyme but it is my understanding that Enzyme products work best with organic nutrients / soil type systems. Being that I am trying to run a pure water culture system with a "dead resi" of purely synthetic nutrients, enzymes are not the long term solution Im looking for although they would attack the algae would they not?
  • GenHydro FloraShield - It is my understanding that this is a sterilization product made up of Beneficial Bacteria that is safe to use with living plants, throughout each grow cycle, as well as a good product for sterilization after a system flush. Im inclined to use a full gallon of FloraShield per 350 gallon system on a weekly basis in between each reservoir flush/exchange. Could this be my long term solution to algae, as well as keeping my feed tubes clean of organic buildup, all while not killing my babies in the process.

thankyou for your help.
 

Attachments

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Bernie420

Well-Known Member
Ok I dont do a system like yours with the tubes and nft but I do hydro ebb and flow. In your system is that what they do just cut a hole and sit the peat puck thing in there and let it sit on the bottom of the tube?? I thought that or am thinking that with that system you would have them in a net pot and the roots dangle down in the nutrient solution and that passes by =nft or maybe i am wrong about that but anyways. I dont see how they will be supported just sitting in a hole like that again = anyways;

Only four pics cant see the entire system when I talk about a solution so that will be up to you.

You have root rot and you already know this but my point being is look at what happened the root rot is forming where the peat puck thing sits in the water in the tube, see how high the rot is is thats how high the water is. So in between the feedings of the chilled water that water is warming up getting to room temp and letting the root rot go to town. Thats the problem! So how often do you run the system?? run the system more frequently so it takes the warm water away more often.

That one pic of the good roots no rot is that a before all this happened pic or is that a pic or a plant that is in front of the others. Curious because shit rolls downhill if it is the first series of plants the nft is dragging the bad bacteria downhill accumulating on the plants towards the end of the line. ??

eliminating light pollution in the NFT system is impossible.
No its not, you just havent applied yourself to go through and cover all the light leaks that get in the system, duct tape is your friend. Dont use clear tubing is another. Whatever you have to do to get it done only you can do that. Figure it out!

H2O2 - I attempted to use peroxide (alchemist brand) at a dosage rate of 500ml to the 350 gallon system.
H202 can burn off fine roots hairs, unless you know the proper ratio or have gone and fucked up some plants and learned what to do. I suggest dont use h202. 500ml to 350 gallons imo is nothing like spitting in a pool. That isnt going to get rid of the root rot or keep it away. I dont see how that caused all the plants to wilt and die. theres more to the story there imo. I think they wilted and died from lack of water from not running the system frquently enough? or at first the plants didnt have roots in the water yet ? maybe idk. H202 doesnt last very long can burn root hairs and I don't recommend you using it.

Physan 20 - my next attempt at preventative management of the algae was to add Physan 20.
Dont know what that is not going to bother looking it up. I dont need it you probably dont either. Thats up to you.

Beneficial Bacteria - Botanicare Hydroguard was then added to the system to heal the roots (assuming the slime is root rot of some sort?) at a dosage rate of 1 liter / 350 gallon system.
That I do use. That I looked up, according to the application rate of 350 gallons you should of used 1 gal to the 350 of that product. Also hydroguard is the shit in a hydro system and is what you need,,,,, any good microbe product will battle the bad bacteria just as well but hydroguard has that one strain a well rounded microbe product will help feed your plant / the ones that get to stick around and not get washed away to drown will. Not saying to switch just so you know.

This is WAR the good bacteria against the bad bacteria!!!!!!!!! You sent in a squad of soldiers when you should of sent in a whole division of soldiers.

Botanicare Hydroguard or GenHydro DEFGUARD - both are Beneficial Bacteria (same active ingredient: Bacillus Amyloliquefaciens) to different degrees of potency. It is my understanding that these will help get my babies back to good root health. Correct me if I am wrong.
You are not wrong.

Cannazym - I picked up some CANNA Cannazyme but it is my understanding that Enzyme products work best with organic nutrients / soil type systems. Being that I am trying to run a pure water culture system with a "dead resi" of purely synthetic nutrients, enzymes are not the long term solution Im looking for although they would attack the algae would they not?
enzymes break down dead organic material but that material isnt available to the plant unless microbes process it and make it available to the plant. Thats in dirt. Since we are in hydro and the enzymes get washed away and all it isnt the best thing but it is a tool and will help break down the dead stuff so the bad bacteria doesnt have something to chew on. That being said use the enzymes now but when things get better stop using them imo. or use them every so often when you want to buff things up. Thats my take on it anyways.



  • GenHydro FloraShield - It is my understanding that this is a sterilization product made up of Beneficial Bacteria that is safe to use with living plants, throughout each grow cycle, as well as a good product for sterilization after a system flush. Im inclined to use a full gallon of FloraShield per 350 gallon system on a weekly basis in between each reservoir flush/exchange. Could this be my long term solution to algae, as well as keeping my feed tubes clean of organic buildup, all while not killing my babies in the process.
Cant find out what exactly this is online cant see the label. Imo you dont need it, hydroguard will keep things fresh, microbes will keep things fresh. Sounds like its the same thing just more of it idk. I dont use it, waste of money maybe?


Could this be my long term solution to algae,
Your long term solution to the algae is to cover all the light leaks in the system. The root rot problem is another and the hydroguard/microbes is the solution. and run the system more often to take away the warm water is the big solution to this problem.

My solution for you and your not going to like it with 1100 plants. But you got to do what you got to do, so figure it out on your own. If you can, if you cant, with how things are built / connected. meaning can each row be isolated so you can do this one row at a time or whatever you have to do.....

So I suggest per row per job per whatever...is to pull each plant out of the holes, Take 1 cup of bleach per gal and run that through each tube to kill anything that is sitting in there. Flush each tube with at least two gal of clean water. A little bleach residue isnt going to hurt anything so just flush with bleachy water let sit for a few, then rinse well.

Take each plant and use a kitchen sprayer and gently rinse off effected roots of the slime/root rot. Water temp the same as reservoir temp. I said kitchen sprayer and gently not a garden hose and roughly.

Get a 5 gal bucket, dip out 3 gal of reservoir water and place into 5 gal bucket. add some kelp and add 50-60ml of hydroguard into bucket mix well. Dip each plant into the bucket and place back into the holes. Mixing as you go from time to time.

Then run the system with the proper dosage of hydroguard in the reservoir. Once the root rot is decimated you can lower hydroguard to a maintenace level. The 5 ml per gal level, squad level and not a division level. THIS IS WAR!


What ppm is the rez what ph is the rez?? Those size plants about 325-400 ppms ph 5.8-6.2 water temp 70.


Get to work, good luck soldier.
I salute you!
 
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RFFT

Member
Ok I dont do a system like yours with the tubes and nft but I do hydro ebb and flow. In your system is that what they do just cut a hole and sit the peat puck thing in there and let it sit on the bottom of the tube?? I thought that or am thinking that with that system you would have them in a net pot and the roots dangle down in the nutrient solution and that passes by =nft or maybe i am wrong about that but anyways. I dont see how they will be supported just sitting in a hole like that again = anyways;
Not practical to use net pots.

Only four pics cant see the entire system when I talk about a solution so that will be up to you.

You have root rot and you already know this but my point being is look at what happened the root rot is forming where the peat puck thing sits in the water in the tube, see how high the rot is is thats how high the water is. So in between the feedings of the chilled water that water is warming up getting to room temp and letting the root rot go to town. Thats the problem! So how often do you run the system?? run the system more frequently so it takes the warm water away more often.
My OP specifically says 24 hr recirculating

I have ran many harvests. Never had root rot. The system design is not the problem.

Turns out this isnt root rot but buildup of dead organic matter that is choking the roots. The Physan 20 (a fungicide) did its job very well. But all the dead matter had nowhere to go.

That one pic of the good roots no rot is that a before all this happened pic or is that a pic or a plant that is in front of the others. Curious because shit rolls downhill if it is the first series of plants the nft is dragging the bad bacteria downhill accumulating on the plants towards the end of the line. ??
It’s a pic of the “before”. 12 hrs before the sludge buildup.


No its not, you just havent applied yourself to go through and cover all the light leaks that get in the system, duct tape is your friend. Dont use clear tubing is another. Whatever you have to do to get it done only you can do that. Figure it out!
Being that you do not have experience with this system, or a system of this scale, or the complexities of my operation, you’ll have to trust me when I say that while eliminating light leaks would be nice, it’s not possible or practical. Nor is duct tape a solution it creates new issues I wont go into detail on.


H202 can burn off fine roots hairs, unless you know the proper ratio or have gone and fucked up some plants and learned what to do. I suggest dont use h202. 500ml to 350 gallons imo is nothing like spitting in a pool. That isnt going to get rid of the root rot or keep it away. I dont see how that caused all the plants to wilt and die. theres more to the story there imo. I think they wilted and died from lack of water from not running the system frquently enough? or at first the plants didnt have roots in the water yet ? maybe idk. H202 doesnt last very long can burn root hairs and I don't recommend you using it.
Nothing more to the story on my end. I have multiple zones running side x side.

H2o2 was added to just one zone. And plants died within minutes.

Maybe it was a “hot” batch? I dunno. But not interested in going down that road again.


Dont know what that is not going to bother looking it up. I dont need it you probably dont either. Thats up to you.
It is a fungicide. Quite economical solution tbh.


That I do use. That I looked up, according to the application rate of 350 gallons you should of used 1 gal to the 350 of that product. Also hydroguard is the shit in a hydro system and is what you need,,,,, any good microbe product will battle the bad bacteria just as well but hydroguard has that one strain a well rounded microbe product will help feed your plant / the ones that get to stick around and not get washed away to drown will. Not saying to switch just so you know.
At 2ml / gallon that is 700 ml. I used 940 ml. More than the recommended dosage rate.

This is WAR the good bacteria against the bad bacteria!!!!!!!!! You sent in a squad of soldiers when you should of sent in a whole division of soldiers.



You are not wrong.



enzymes break down dead organic material but that material isnt available to the plant unless microbes process it and make it available to the plant. Thats in dirt. Since we are in hydro and the enzymes get washed away and all it isnt the best thing but it is a tool and will help break down the dead stuff so the bad bacteria doesnt have something to chew on. That being said use the enzymes now but when things get better stop using them imo. or use them every so often when you want to buff things up. Thats my take on it anyways.
I was wondering if enzymes would struggle with so much water circulating. Thus why a sterilization type product makes more sense for this application.

But note taken: enzymes & beni bacteria need to work hand in hand.




Cant find out what exactly this is online cant see the label. Imo you dont need it, hydroguard will keep things fresh, microbes will keep things fresh. Sounds like its the same thing just more of it idk. I dont use it, waste of money maybe?
It’s an anti-microbial. Will work on the algae, etc. But wont eat up the dead matter that is currently in the system clogging the tubes & building up on the roots.

Yes, expensive. Physan 20 is a cheaper alternative.



Your long term solution to the algae is to cover all the light leaks in the system. The root rot problem is another and the hydroguard/microbes is the solution.
You’ll have to trust me on this, the light leaks are something that must be worked around in this case. Not up for debate.

My solution for you and your not going to like it with 1100 plants. But you got to do what you got to do, so figure it out on your own. If you can, if you cant, with how things are built / connected. meaning can each row be isolated so you can do this one row at a time or whatever you have to do.....
Yeah, not doable. Thus why Im hoping the enzymes & beni bacteria can do the cleaning for me.

So I suggest per row per job per whatever...is to pull each plant out of the holes, Take 1 cup of bleach per gal and run that through each tube to kill anything that is sitting in there. Flush each tube with at least two gal of clean water. A little bleach residue isnt going to hurt anything so just flush with bleachy water let sit for a few, then rinse well.
Not practical on this scale. Unfortunately.

Take each plant and use a kitchen sprayer and gently rinse off effected roots of the slime/root rot. Water temp the same as reservoir temp. I said kitchen sprayer and gently not a garden hose and roughly.
Hydroguard & Enzymes were added yesterday. They appear to be doing the labor for me. Time will tell tho. Might just have to chalk this zone’s run up to the game.

Get a 5 gal bucket, dip out 3 gal of reservoir water and place into 5 gal bucket. add some kelp and add 50-60ml of hydroguard into bucket mix well. Dip each plant into the bucket and place back into the holes. Mixing as you go from time to time.

Then run the system with the proper dosage of hydroguard in the reservoir. Once the root rot is decimated you can lower hydroguard to a maintenace level. The 5 ml per gal level, squad level and not a division level. THIS IS WAR!


What ppm is the rez what ph is the rez?? Those size plants about 325-400 ppms ph 5.8-6.2 water temp 70.
EC & pH are not a issue. Otherwise would’ve seen this problem many cycles ago. Only variable was the Physan 20. Which might’ve just did it’s job too well LOL.

Get to work, good luck soldier.
I salute you!
I appreciate your feedback. Thx
 

RFFT

Member
So far, the solution I’ve been able to settle on is...

1. Enzymes & Beni’s to eat up the old dead matter

2. Sterilization product to apply weekly once system is flushed (Physan 20 or Flora Shield)

Although Im open to using the DefGuard/Hydroguard long term. Seems they need the enzymes with them to work? Could get more expensive than the FloraShield route. And certainly more expensive than the Physan20.

I was initially blaming the Physan. I thought it was killing the roots. But upon examination of other aspects (not pictured yet) it became clear the roots were still fine. The buildup was dead algae & other dead organic matter.
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
Cool I tried to help i guess.
remember your in hydro and all the enzymes and microbes have to be sticking to the roots in order for them to work. some will say they are not needed or not practical and to a point I agree but they work if you can get them to stick around. So in my case I do ebb and flow when the pot fills up I top feed my plants the good stuff so when it drains out whats left stays on the root surface for the longest time at the most concentration = till the next flow.

so add the hydroguard and in a week or so it should be fine

Whew this post was a lot faster then the last one
party on. wayne.
 

RFFT

Member
Cool I tried to help i guess.
remember your in hydro and all the enzymes and microbes have to be sticking to the roots in order for them to work. some will say they are not needed or not practical and to a point I agree but they work if you can get them to stick around. So in my case I do ebb and flow when the pot fills up I top feed my plants the good stuff so when it drains out whats left stays on the root surface for the longest time at the most concentration = till the next flow.

so add the hydroguard and in a week or so it should be fine

Whew this post was a lot faster then the last one
party on. wayne.
Being that my system is in a constant flow, Im guessing the beni’s & enzymes arent going to be effective like in E&F.

Just so I understand this correctly...

- Enzymes - need the beni bacteria to work hand in hand?

- Beni Bacterias - can still do their job independent of any enzymes?
 

Wastei

Well-Known Member
Experience:
  • 3 decades
  • aero, hydro, soil
  • indoor, greenhouse, outdoor

Current System:
  • Greenhouse
  • Light Assist
  • Light Dep
  • Large Scale NFT 24 hr Recirculatory Feed System w/ multiple zones running different nutrient lines & recipes
  • Automated EC Dosing & pH management (freshly calibrated)
  • H2O chiller system in operation - water temps at constant 68 degrees day & night
  • Resi Size - 350+/- gallons
  • Nutrients - mostly GenHydro FloraDuo & Cutting Edge Solutions
  • DNA - various
Ok... so now you got an idea of my background & system....

PROBLEMS:
  • Note: keep in mind that I have many zones independent of each other running at the same time. All variables are controlled so it is very easy to pinpoint cause/effect.
  • Algae - normally, with NFT, eliminating light pollution in the NFT system is impossible. Algae will grow, and it's not the biggest problem in the world. But it has been an issue with clogging my feed tubes. So I would like to run a "dead resi", as in, full synthetic nutrients and no living organic matter in my system. That way the tubes stay clean and flowing properly. Im spending way too much time unclogging the tubes on a weekly basis with slime/algae that builds up over a few weeks.
  • H2O2 - I attempted to use peroxide (alchemist brand) at a dosage rate of 500ml to the 350 gallon system. This is appx 1/4 the recommended dose. Within 5 minutes 1100 freshly transplanted baby plants wilted and died. I contacted the makers of the product and they said that was about 10x the dosage rate they would use on live plants and that their label specifically only recommends to use as a sterilization agent in between grow cycles. The label actually says that it can be used every four days. When I mentioned this to their rep, he began to stumble on his words. Needless to say, I no longer feel comfortable using this product for anything but sterilization in between grow cycles.
  • Physan 20 - my next attempt at preventative management of the algae was to add Physan 20. It worked well at sterilization of the system (killing off any algae prior to flushing the system). I then added it again to a new zone of freshly transplanted babies. I did so at a rate of 2 tablespoons per 350 gallon system. This resulted in the babies wilting and developing a white slime/sludge at the roots. See attached picture, you can see the before & after. Nearly every feed tube was clogged with this same matter, way worse than any algae outbreak I've seen 6-7 weeks into a run.
  • System is fully flushed as to remove the Physan 20
  • Beneficial Bacteria - Botanicare Hydroguard was then added to the system to heal the roots (assuming the slime is root rot of some sort?) at a dosage rate of 1 liter / 350 gallon system.
SOLUTIONS?
  • I need a long term solution to algae management, while also understanding sterilization, beneficial bacteria, and enzymes. Any and all input is welcome.
  • Physan 20 - where did I go wrong here? Two different grow shops told me this product was completely safe to use with living plants.
  • Botanicare Hydroguard or GenHydro DEFGUARD - both are Beneficial Bacteria (same active ingredient: Bacillus Amyloliquefaciens) to different degrees of potency. It is my understanding that these will help get my babies back to good root health. Correct me if I am wrong.
  • Cannazym - I picked up some CANNA Cannazyme but it is my understanding that Enzyme products work best with organic nutrients / soil type systems. Being that I am trying to run a pure water culture system with a "dead resi" of purely synthetic nutrients, enzymes are not the long term solution Im looking for although they would attack the algae would they not?
  • GenHydro FloraShield - It is my understanding that this is a sterilization product made up of Beneficial Bacteria that is safe to use with living plants, throughout each grow cycle, as well as a good product for sterilization after a system flush. Im inclined to use a full gallon of FloraShield per 350 gallon system on a weekly basis in between each reservoir flush/exchange. Could this be my long term solution to algae, as well as keeping my feed tubes clean of organic buildup, all while not killing my babies in the process.

thankyou for your help.
I think you're over complicating stuff. Keep it simple and run it sterile with safe known products.

@rkymtnman is right. Pool shock (Calcium hypochlorite) is the most effective an safest sterilizing agent with residual effect that I've come across. 0.1g per 10 gallon is pretty easy to measure and operate, it will give you ~1ppm residual.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Seems similar to if I were adding bleach, no?

Looks like a very cheap solution.

This stuff cant hurt the plant?
safer than bleach: calcium hypochlorite. bleach is sodium based.

0.1 grams per 10 gallons is 1ppm free chlorine. up to 5 is safe for humans and plants.

you won't find a cheaper way to go.
 

RFFT

Member
I think you're over complicating stuff. Keep it simple and run it sterile with safe known products.

@rkymtnman is right. Pool shock (Calcium hypochlorite) is the most effective an safest sterilizing agent with residual effect that I've come across. 0.1g per 10 gallon is pretty easy to measure and operate, it will give you ~1ppm residual.
Im definitely over thinking this. Which is why I came for help LOL. Cant see the forest from the trees right now.
 

Bernie420

Well-Known Member
Being that my system is in a constant flow, Im guessing the beni’s & enzymes arent going to be effective like in E&F.

Just so I understand this correctly...

- Enzymes - need the beni bacteria to work hand in hand?

- Beni Bacterias - can still do their job independent of any enzymes?
Basically its just harder to keep microbes alive in hydro - that is without an airstone or something. That and they wash away with the tide and drown.
 

RFFT

Member
Basically its just harder to keep microbes alive in hydro - that is without an airstone or something. That and they wash away with the tide and drown.
The algae is having no problem surviving LOL.

No airstones needed here. Solution is plenty oxygenated. Possibly to a fault. Ive heard multiple people say they couldnt get the beni/enzyme combo to work real well in 24 hr water cultures. Too much moving water. Possibly too oxygenated, killing the bacteria.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
the chlor boost is less % than HTH shock so you'll have to re-calculate your mixing numbers. HTH is 62%
 

RFFT

Member
Good way to look at it!

So let me see if I got the math right...

0.1 g / gallon x 400 gallons = 40 g of the calcium hypochlorite? Safe test dosage?

Im thinking of testing all 3 methods. I need it to work with both babies & mature plants alike. Simple is better.

Method 1 (aka “Cheap Pool Products”):
- sterilize with calcium hypochlorite (chlor boost)
- eat up dead matter with pool brand enzymes (clear aid)
- wait 48 hrs
- weekly maintenance with calcium hypochlorite
- cheap & eats dead matter, potential to hurt plants if not added correctly. Potential for employee error, so possibly not practical on scale

Method 2 (aka “Cheap Fungicide”):
- Physan 20 to kill algae
- weekly maintenance with P20
- cheap, definitely works, but not a good long term solution, probably will result in testing/human health issues

Method 3 (aka “Bacteria”):
- sterilization with strong beneficial bacteria (GH DefGuard), still very unclear on dosage rate
- weekly maintenance with Beneficial Bacteria (HydroGuard), too expensive a route at $50 per application
- weekly maintenance with Anti-Microbial (GH FloraShield), too expensive of a route @ $50 per application
- weekly maintenance with Beneficial Bacteria (GH DefGuard), could be rather cheap considering the concentration rate in the bottle makes this way more economical than Hydroguard (0.03% versus 98.85%) and a pint of DefGuard is about $20
- cant burn or overdo Beneficials like this right? If so, this method is safely scalable
- this method will pass all testing and seemingly can be made cheaper than at first glance BUT is it truly a “dead reservoir”?

Time to run all 3 side x side?
 
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