I've been fighting Mn problems since I started organic growing and I think that I solved it.

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I've been having my soil(indoor potting soil) tested for about 3yrs now and I noticed that common trend that I have is Mn is always low. I always thought that I could just amend my soil and be done with it, but I would usually start to see Mn def around mid-flower and I couldn't believe it and thought that it was something else. However, I came across this article and it changed my mind about how I approach the issue. This statement alone cleared up a lot of questions, but the whole article is worthy of reading. Keep in mind, what they mean about heavier soil is high organic soil such as indoor potting soil.
In heavier soil, the problem usually involves getting plants to take up manganese from the soil before it becomes tied up and unavailable. “In such soils, broadcasting, in my experience, is pretty inefficient,” Ferrie says. “Doubling the amount of manganese in the soil won’t help. If you do choose to broadcast, apply the manganese as close to uptake by the plants as possible because anything not taken up will quickly become fixed and unavailable.”

They go on to say that foliar feeding is the best way to deliver Mn. However, I listened to podcast with Dr. Steve Solomon and he has written books about soil mineralization and he said "You don't feed a man one huge meal once a month, but you spread it out and give smaller amounts but more often" he was talking about the approach to fixing soil deficiencies. I was guilty of testing my soil and only adding Mn 1x for the entire grow cycle and calling it good. I also found out the hard way that you can easily add to much Mn sulfate and cause Mn toxicity too, so I stopped using Mn sulfate and I moved on to Big 6 but I think that TM-7 would be helpful to some people instead. Dr. Steve Solomon is really helpful in understanding this stuff and I'll leave the link to to it. https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/6-cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast

If you took the time to read my post, you should look at these links because they were very helpful in what I felt like was my "Darkest Hour" of growing. I was hitting my ceiling and I was getting frustrated because I couldn't find the answers that I was looking for. On the podcast Dr. Steve Solomon talks about cannabis being a Mn sensitive pant and that rock dust doesn't have enough to make a difference. He basically said that the only way to get a source of Mn is from Mn sulfate. He said that it would take an entire dump truck of 2tons to get a cup of zinc or manganese. Anyways, these soil tests are what my tests typically look like:DSC01216.JPGDSC01163.JPGDSC01165.JPG
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
I hope that someone appreciates this because Mn has been a stumbling block for me for several years. Maybe you got lucky and found out about TM-7 or Big 6 way before I did?
I have similar issues with my homemade potting soil. I have tested it 3 times now and each time my micro levels are low, iron has been the hardest for me to deal with. Currently I have been adding a very small amount of the biomin micro nutrient product from KIS once a week. I also have been using the TM-7 product from bio-ag. So far so good. Looks like you’re on the road to success. I personally love the process of tuning in my soil and getting it tested. Hopefully as the soil ages the micro nutrients will become more available. From what I understand minerals become more available over time. We’ll see, my soil is 2 years old now, I just sent out a sample to get tested this week, see what shakes out.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Currently I have been adding a very small amount of the biomin micro nutrient product from KIS once a week.
No shit, I have the BioMin Booster 153 too. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Steve Solomon had a hand in that product and that is one of the big reasons why I bought it. I think that it works best as a foliar spray and I haven't have any luck adding it to the soil... Yeah, if you are having low iron issues then I would def use TM-7 over Big 6. It's cool to see someone on the same page that I am! Man, I went through a dark time trying to figure this stuff out. It seemed like I was getting picked on for getting my soil tested instead of getting helpful information and it just made me bitter. It seemed like nobody could answer my questions. However, Hyroot did a good job of leading me on the right path, so I can't say that nobody could answer my questions... Funny, I just sent out some soil tests today too. I had one for my potting soil(soil savvy) and I sent some dirt from my lawn to Logan Labs, trying to green up my lawn.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I've been dealing with spider mites, so I cut all of my plants down and it's been 6 weeks now. I wanted to make damn sure that there wasn't any mites hiding in cracks or anything, so I waited well past their life cycle of 4 weeks before I planted again. My last harvest kind of came crashing down on me because I think that I added too much Mn and caused Mn toxicity on top of spider mites. However, I did some research and figured out the Mn problem, found that Malibu compost doesn't have an excessive amount of P, and I have some new seeds that I am very excited about. I really feel like I am going to rise like a Phoenix from the ashes on my next grow. It's been a long time since I have been optimistic about my garden, it's nice...
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
No shit, I have the BioMin Booster 153 too. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Steve Solomon had a hand in that product and that is one of the big reasons why I bought it. I think that it works best as a foliar spray and I haven't have any luck adding it to the soil... Yeah, if you are having low iron issues then I would def use TM-7 over Big 6. It's cool to see someone on the same page that I am! Man, I went through a dark time trying to figure this stuff out. It seemed like I was getting picked on for getting my soil tested instead of getting helpful information and it just made me bitter. It seemed like nobody could answer my questions. However, Hyroot did a good job of leading me on the right path, so I can't say that nobody could answer my questions... Funny, I just sent out some soil tests today too. I had one for my potting soil(soil savvy) and I sent some dirt from my lawn to Logan Labs, trying to green up my lawn.
Glad to hear it man, Hadn’t thought to use the biomin as a foliar. Will have to try it out as in a perfect world I would love to not add anything to the soil but I’m not one of these people that obsess over water only living soil or whatever other labels people want to put on their grow technique. I just want to grow healthy plants!

I have been pouring the liquid collected from my worm bin into my soil bin for last month. Curious to see how that will effect this round of testing.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I have similar issues with my homemade potting soil. I have tested it 3 times now and each time my micro levels are low, iron has been the hardest for me to deal with. Currently I have been adding a very small amount of the biomin micro nutrient product from KIS once a week. I also have been using the TM-7 product from bio-ag. So far so good. Looks like you’re on the road to success. I personally love the process of tuning in my soil and getting it tested. Hopefully as the soil ages the micro nutrients will become more available. From what I understand minerals become more available over time. We’ll see, my soil is 2 years old now, I just sent out a sample to get tested this week, see what shakes out.
Hey, I forgot to mention that Greensand has Mn, Iron, and potassium. It's like the only rock dust that has enough Mn to make a difference. People say that it takes a year to break down, but I read that it is something like 10-15% soluble.
Glad to hear it man, Hadn’t thought to use the biomin as a foliar.
I kept seeing that the only way to get high Brix #'s is from foliar feeding. Dr. Steve Solomon said that your soil could be perfect and the plant still wouldn't be able to uptake all the nutrients that it needs. Also, Mn is immobile in plant tissue, so the only way to fix a def is by foliar feeding.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Might hit them with a touch of peters MOST. Good stuff. Wouldn't take much. Just for a reference point 0.1 grams per gallon provides the following:

View attachment 4402519
That's interesting, I've never seen this product... What I have noticed from my soil tests is that I usually have enough iron from kelp and rock dust, but they wouldn't do jack shit for Mn. That's why I was so interested in BAS Big 6. It's cool to be having this conversation because nobody knew what I was talking about last Feb. It was a hard time for me and I was getting kind of mouthy towards certain members on here because they kept telling me to ditch the soil test because they are faulty(B.S). It forced me to do my own homework lol... Like I said, I'm glad to be having this conversation!
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
iron has been the hardest for me to deal with.
I must have missed this last night. How much kelp do you use and what kind of rock dust are you using? I'm currently using basalt, azomite, and greensand along with kelp and I hardly have any iron issues... Thinking about it, are you still using Big 6? It could actually be hurting you if you have iron def because Mn and iron work against each other. It's that antagonist relationship, too much of one will lower the other. Big 6 doesn't contain iron like TM-7 and the Mn is 2x the amount as TM-7. So, if your having iron issues I wouldn't even fuck with Big 6... Another thing that lowers available iron is excessive phosphorus. Having too much P will cause "iron chlorosis" locking out iron and zinc.
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
I must have missed this last night. How much kelp do you use and what kind of rock dust are you using? I'm currently using basalt, azomite, and greensand along with kelp and I hardly have any iron issues... Thinking about it, are you still using Big 6? It could actually be hurting you if you have iron def because Mn and iron work against each other. It's that antagonist relationship, too much of one will lower the other. Big 6 doesn't contain iron like TM-7 and the Mn is 2x the amount as TM-7. So, if your having iron issues I wouldn't even fuck with Big 6... Another thing that lowers available iron is excessive phosphorus. Having too much P will cause "iron chlorosis" locking out iron and zinc.

I used some local stone dust and I used a lot of kelp. I buy 50 pound bags of the stuff(thorvin) for my veggie garden. You nailed it with the high P, that has been my issue. Initially I used a lot of compost from a local farm and it was super high in P, my potting soil is just now getting to the point where the P levels are coming down to where they should be. This will be my 5 run I believe in this soil and like many others have observed, it keeps getting better. Excited to see what this round of testing looks like
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I used some local stone dust and I used a lot of kelp. I buy 50 pound bags of the stuff(thorvin) for my veggie garden. You nailed it with the high P, that has been my issue. Initially I used a lot of compost from a local farm and it was super high in P, my potting soil is just now getting to the point where the P levels are coming down to where they should be. This will be my 5 run I believe in this soil and like many others have observed, it keeps getting better. Excited to see what this round of testing looks like
I was super impressed with Malibu Compost because it is the only compost that I have found that is lower in P. I'm interested to know how they did it and I have a theory on how but I'm not 100%. I think that composting comfrey and borage(others too) it helps to lower the P by locking it up. Excessive Phosphorus was another big stumbling block for me too and that is why I am stoked about my next grow with Malibu compost. I'm currently working on trying to make my worm bin in the same manner, but I don't have any composting type plants that I need yet. Apparently, I have not been composting properly anyways, so it's probably something that I need to study again and go deeper into it. The podcast on Kis Organics had the owner of Malibu compost and he said that there is a difference between making compost and recycling organic matter. I'm guilty of not composting correctly, so that's my next focus. Look at how low the P is on this soil test. This is pure Malibu Compost straight out of the bag, nothing added. It wanted to see what I was working with before mixing soil. It's low in Mn, but I expect that now.

DSC01216.JPG

Anyways, back to my point, raising iron levels should lower P, Zn, and Mn. I pulled my hair out figuring this shit out because I would test my soil and I would think that I fixed it only to have another problem. I would think "I'm only low in Mn, so I can apply some Mn sulfate and be good". What really happens is it will lower the availability of the other 3( P, Zn, and Mn). I just found a nice little article talking about it:
Some of the most common antagonisms are iron blocking manganese (or the reverse), magnesium blocking calcium (or the reverse) and potassium blocking both magnesium and calcium.

Binding may also occur when iron or zinc is mixed in a solution of phosphates (HPO4-2) and a mineral called strengite forms. This compound is completely insoluble and will make both the phosphorous and the iron or zinc unavailable to plants.
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Stang,

Good post and great link. Did a quick read and bookmarked it for a much more detailed read later.

In fact, I'll be going back over this entire thread more slowly and paying close attention AFA mineral relationships.

Good job!

Wet
 

Kushash

Well-Known Member
I was super impressed with Malibu Compost because it is the only compost that I have found that is lower in P. I'm interested to know how they did it and I have a theory on how but I'm not 100%. I think that composting comfrey and borage(others too) it helps to lower the P by locking it up. Excessive Phosphorus was another big stumbling block for me too and that is why I am stoked about my next grow with Malibu compost. I'm currently working on trying to make my worm bin in the same manner, but I don't have any composting type plants that I need yet. Apparently, I have not been composting properly anyways, so it's probably something that I need to study again and go deeper into it. The podcast on Kis Organics had the owner of Malibu compost and he said that there is a difference between making compost and recycling organic matter. I'm guilty of not composting correctly, so that's my next focus. Look at how low the P is on this soil test. This is pure Malibu Compost straight out of the bag, nothing added. It wanted to see what I was working with before mixing soil. It's low in Mn, but I expect that now.

View attachment 4403318

Anyways, back to my point, raising iron levels should lower P, Zn, and Mn. I pulled my hair out figuring this shit out because I would test my soil and I would think that I fixed it only to have another problem. I would think "I'm only low in Mn, so I can apply some Mn sulfate and be good". What really happens is it will lower the availability of the other 3( P, Zn, and Mn). I just found a nice little article talking about it:
Some of the most common antagonisms are iron blocking manganese (or the reverse), magnesium blocking calcium (or the reverse) and potassium blocking both magnesium and calcium.

Binding may also occur when iron or zinc is mixed in a solution of phosphates (HPO4-2) and a mineral called strengite forms. This compound is completely insoluble and will make both the phosphorous and the iron or zinc unavailable to plants.
I'm wondering if the issue causing the most trouble is to much P.
If I recall the trouble with your plants starts in early flower with yellowing in the upper part of the plant very similar to when a plant is given to much P at that stage.
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
I was super impressed with Malibu Compost because it is the only compost that I have found that is lower in P. I'm interested to know how they did it and I have a theory on how but I'm not 100%. I think that composting comfrey and borage(others too) it helps to lower the P by locking it up. Excessive Phosphorus was another big stumbling block for me too and that is why I am stoked about my next grow with Malibu compost. I'm currently working on trying to make my worm bin in the same manner, but I don't have any composting type plants that I need yet. Apparently, I have not been composting properly anyways, so it's probably something that I need to study again and go deeper into it. The podcast on Kis Organics had the owner of Malibu compost and he said that there is a difference between making compost and recycling organic matter. I'm guilty of not composting correctly, so that's my next focus. Look at how low the P is on this soil test. This is pure Malibu Compost straight out of the bag, nothing added. It wanted to see what I was working with before mixing soil. It's low in Mn, but I expect that now.

View attachment 4403318

Anyways, back to my point, raising iron levels should lower P, Zn, and Mn. I pulled my hair out figuring this shit out because I would test my soil and I would think that I fixed it only to have another problem. I would think "I'm only low in Mn, so I can apply some Mn sulfate and be good". What really happens is it will lower the availability of the other 3( P, Zn, and Mn). I just found a nice little article talking about it:
Some of the most common antagonisms are iron blocking manganese (or the reverse), magnesium blocking calcium (or the reverse) and potassium blocking both magnesium and calcium.

Binding may also occur when iron or zinc is mixed in a solution of phosphates (HPO4-2) and a mineral called strengite forms. This compound is completely insoluble and will make both the phosphorous and the iron or zinc unavailable to plants.
Stang,
What is the dilution rate for the biomin foliar application?
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering if the issue causing the most trouble is to much P.
If I recall the trouble with your plants starts in early flower with yellowing in the upper part of the plant very similar to when a plant is given to much P at that stage.
Too much P will cause Mn issues, but I'm certain that the problem goes farther than that. I read that high organic matter soils will cause Mn lockout too. Basically, every potting soil is going to be high in organic matter. I see Mn issues as being ongoing and there isn't really a one time fix to solve the issue(this is my breakthrough discovery). I was only treating the soil 1x and that was at the beginning of veg and I couldn't figure out why I was having problems 8 weeks later in flower... Don't get me wrong though, high P has been a problem since I started composting. Malibu Compost is the first compost that I found that has P at reasonable levels.
 
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