Converting from synthetic line - need recommendations

[Deketx]

I'm interested in this question as well. I still don't understand what Epsom salt does for plants, I know what it does for people's feet for plants not quite sure.

 

[kratos015]

Epsom Salts are great, I use them as part of a foliar feed even when I'm not experiencing deficiencies.

Epsom Salts are just Magnesium Sulfate, so Mag and Sulfur that your plants can absorb. It isn't quite viable for a top dress unfortunately, but is quite useful in a weekly foliar feed. 1/4 tsp per gallon of water is what I usually go with, though I'll go up to 1/2 tsp twice a week if any plants are getting a Mag deficiency that badly. Sulfur is one of the biggest elements responsible for terpene production, that's why I foliar with Epsom Salts weekly. Potassium and Silica also help for this purpose. A weekly foliar feed of liquid seaweed, epsom salts, and ProTekt/AgSil (Potassium Silicate) has done wonders for me, great for preventative maintenance and enhancing flavor.

Langbeinite is your friend here if you're looking for a top dress. It's great stuff, just takes a while to decompose is all.

HTH

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Epsom Salts are great, I use them as part of a foliar feed even when I'm not experiencing deficiencies.

Epsom Salts are just Magnesium Sulfate, so Mag and Sulfur that your plants can absorb. It isn't quite viable for a top dress unfortunately, but is quite useful in a weekly foliar feed. 1/4 tsp per gallon of water is what I usually go with, though I'll go up to 1/2 tsp twice a week if any plants are getting a Mag deficiency that badly. Sulfur is one of the biggest elements responsible for terpene production, that's why I foliar with Epsom Salts weekly. Potassium and Silica also help for this purpose. A weekly foliar feed of liquid seaweed, epsom salts, and ProTekt/AgSil (Potassium Silicate) has done wonders for me, great for preventative maintenance and enhancing flavor.

Langbeinite is your friend here if you're looking for a top dress. It's great stuff, just takes a while to decompose is all.

HTH

I thought about using Langbeinite, but thought it might have too much potassium. What do you recommend as a safe amount to top dress a 15 gal pot with it?
Thanks again, you are very helpful.

 

[Deketx]

Again, great information. Thanks!

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Again, great information. Thanks!

I know Kratos knows his shit.

 

[Deketx]

For sure. I have learned a lot just in this thread alone. I appreciate his patience and willingness to help those of us that are inexperienced, and gung go along with that, lol.

 

[kratos015]

I thought about using Langbeinite, but thought it might have too much potassium. What do you recommend as a safe amount to top dress a 15 gal pot with it?
Thanks again, you are very helpful.

A little goes a long way. For 15g pots I'd say ~2-3 tsp top dress per month should be fine. Don't need much, especially because of the K like you pointed out as that'll cause more problems than it'll help if you aren't careful. I like the stuff and have been incorporating it lately but because of how potent it can be I don't use much, especially in veg/smaller plants. You can always add more if you need to, and in the meantime while you're waiting for the langbeinite to decompose and become available in your soil, the Silica+Epsom salts foliar is pretty much a lighter version of langbeinite in terms of having magnesium, sulfur, and small amounts of potassium. I foliar with this weekly, so that's why I take it so easy on the langbeinite. Langbeinite is also special because the 3 elements it's composed of; sulfur, magnesium, and potassium are all responsible in terpene production. You can always add more if you need to. Better too little than too much.

Are you currently experiencing deficiencies now or are you just trying to plan ahead due to your water situation? I'm guessing the latter?

Typically if you have Calcium in your water, Magnesium will also be present but in varying amounts depending on the minerals in the water itself. Everyone's well water is completely different because we all live around different minerals and will have different mineral contents than one another. We also must consider that those minerals can and will bind themselves to our soil, so you'll want to know what minerals are in your water before adding any mineral amendments of sorts.

I'm glad to help, and hope it did.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

A little goes a long way. For 15g pots I'd say ~2-3 tsp top dress per month should be fine. Don't need much, especially because of the K like you pointed out as that'll cause more problems than it'll help if you aren't careful. I like the stuff and have been incorporating it lately but because of how potent it can be I don't use much, especially in veg/smaller plants. You can always add more if you need to, and in the meantime while you're waiting for the langbeinite to decompose and become available in your soil, the Silica+Epsom salts foliar is pretty much a lighter version of langbeinite in terms of having magnesium, sulfur, and small amounts of potassium. I foliar with this weekly, so that's why I take it so easy on the langbeinite. Langbeinite is also special because the 3 elements it's composed of; sulfur, magnesium, and potassium are all responsible in terpene production. You can always add more if you need to. Better too little than too much.

Are you currently experiencing deficiencies now or are you just trying to plan ahead due to your water situation? I'm guessing the latter?

Typically if you have Calcium in your water, Magnesium will also be present but in varying amounts depending on the minerals in the water itself. Everyone's well water is completely different because we all live around different minerals and will have different mineral contents than one another. We also must consider that those minerals can and will bind themselves to our soil, so you'll want to know what minerals are in your water before adding any mineral amendments of sorts.

I'm glad to help, and hope it did.

Thank you so much for your help. I will get some langbeinite and use a little bit for a top dressing if I need. It's not easy for me to do foliar sprays since they are in my closet and my plants can get kinda big.

I'm not experiencing any deficiency at the moment, but have had magnesium deficiency in the past I think, but am new to diagnosing the issues so it could of been something else. So ya, I'm kinda trying to plan ahead since I know my water has some calcium in it.

I'm in the foothills of Colorado, and my well is like 400 feet deep since I'm on a hill. I know it has some calcium, but don't know how much magnesium it has in it. I think it might have more calcium than magnesium, but should get it checked. My main worry is that I don't want the calcium to build up in the soil and so I don't want to add cal-mag or any extra calcium.

And OH Ya you helped. Not just me, but all the others that will learn from your insight. Thanks again Kratos.

 

[kratos015]

Thank you so much for your help. I will get some langbeinite and use a little bit for a top dressing if I need. It's not easy for me to do foliar sprays since they are in my closet and my plants can get kinda big.

I'm not experiencing any deficiency at the moment, but have had magnesium deficiency in the past I think, but am new to diagnosing the issues so it could of been something else. So ya, I'm kinda trying to plan ahead since I know my water has some calcium in it.

I'm in the foothills of Colorado, and my well is like 400 feet deep since I'm on a hill. I know it has some calcium, but don't know how much magnesium it has in it. I think it might have more calcium than magnesium, but should get it checked. My main worry is that I don't want the calcium to build up in the soil and so I don't want to add cal-mag or any extra calcium.

And OH Ya you helped. Not just me, but all the others that will learn from your insight. Thanks again Kratos.

The confined spaces should work in your favor actually, believe it or not. The reason is because everything in the foliar spray (sulfur, silica, potassium, and magnesium) are all mobile nutrients. You have mobile and immobile nutrients, mobile nutrients can move through the plants/soil where are immobile nutrients are stuck where they are. This is why excess Phosphorus can wreak havoc, because it's a mobile nutrient and will move throughout your plant and soil whether you like it or not.

This works in our favor as growers for foliar feeding though because we don't have to spray the entire plants to reap the benefits of the foliar spray due to the ingredients being mobile. So even if you're only able to spray the canopy the nutrients will move themselves throughout the plant because they're mobile.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GC9XWNG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's a great product if you're in the market for a pump sprayer, Chapin just doesn't make the quality products they used to and all their products I've purchased in the last year have broken down on me within a matter of days to weeks.

Uniform spraying really only applies for pesticides because those aren't mobile for the most part, so bugs will just migrate to the parts of the plant you missed. The only exceptions to this I've seen would be Spinosad products and habanero spray. Spinosad is just a microbe (I believe a strain of bacteria but I could be wrong) but the issue with spinosad is that it's pretty simple for bugs to become resistant to it if you use it too much. That's why Habanero spray is my go-to, if a 6ft 170lb human needs a breathing mask to spray this shit to avoid choking then just imagine what it's doing to all those little fuckers trying to turn our hard work into a free buffet! Bugs can get used to a lot of different things, but I've yet to see any handle the habanero peppers with grace.

I wouldn't trip too much on not having Mg because plants use 2-5 times as much Calcium as they do Magnesium. You can confirm this by looking at CalMag products, it's usually a 2:1 to 10:1 ratio of Calcium:Magnesium. I'm quite confident that your water has trace amounts of Mg in it already, and not just that but it likely also follows the 2:1 to 10:1 ratio. I'm in a very small town, but if your town is large enough then it's entirely possible someone has posted well water testing results already and they'll be similar enough to yours that you can use them as a guideline. Again, not everyone can afford the hundreds of dollars for the testing so there's absolutely no shame in generalizing/guesstimating. However, if you do guesstimate then make sure you're extra cautious with any extra inputs in your soil in the future.

Calcium (or any nutrient/element for that matter) will only build up if it is too much for the plant to absorb, this is why we tend to have issues with Calcium more often than Magnesium. Usually Mg problems are the result of Ca problems, or overwatering. Calcium and Magnesium are directly related with one another, excess Ca locks out Mg but insufficient Mg makes it impossible to absorb Ca. And, of course overwatering (and therefore extremely acidic pH) will cause a myriad of "deficiencies", including CalMag.

You're using BAS, so the only Calcium inputs should be Crab Meal if I'm not mistaken, the Craft Blend doesn't include the Mineral Blend correct? My Calcium toxicity occurred because I mindlessly added recommended amendments without paying any mind to what they're actually adding to my soil. I used gypsum as a mineral supplement due to it being so highly regarded, as well as Oyster Shell Flour as a buffer and another source of Calcium. This became problematic with my water, because my calcified water combined with Crab Meal, OSF, AND Gypsum pretty much ensured I was literally murdering my plants with Calcium. So while Coot's recipe is absolutely incredible, and the guy is also one of the most knowledgeable people I've ever seen post, he also has different variables than I do. He's either on a RO system, or has access to softer water than I do. As a result of his soft water (and therefore, not calcified) he needs all of those Calcium inputs where as you and I do not. So if you're only using the Crab/Kelp/Neem mix then you should be fine with just your water, and Epsom Salts/Langbeinite for a back up. If your water is anything like mine then I can guarantee you won't need anymore calcium inputs haha. Kelp Meal and well water like ours should cover pretty much every mineral needs a plant can have, Epsom Salt+Silica foliar feed gives a little boost of the nutrients necessary for flavor/terpene production.

Somewhat of a tangent, but on the note of Coot's variables this is also why people struggle with his recipe. As he puts it "You don't have my worm castings". Castings are so amazing because they have all the properties of compost, but it's also some of the lightest stuff ever. So, when Coots recommends a 1:1:1 ratio of peat, perlite, compost/EWC this is assuming your compost source is as good as his. If it's not, it'll be like mine, which means it's not as light which means that you'll need to add extra peat moss and/or perlite to compensate for the compost you're using. Sorry for the tangent, but it just goes to show the importance of knowing every single last detail about what you're adding into your soil I guess you could say. It's no different than our own bodies. You have humans that are deficient in nutrients and have an excess of body fat, but also humans that have a good BMI and healthy nutritional levels. They're both human bodies, but the inputs into said bodies are completely different.

Anyway, Calcium raises pH significantly, you'll notice that buffering agents (Dolomite Lime, Oyster Shell Flour, etc) are mostly Calcium based. This is why those of us on wells need to be sure we know exactly what's in both our water as well as our soil because it's quite easy to overdo things otherwise. I mindlessly followed recipes without realizing how the calcified water would affect things and my yields were shot as a result. I never had this issue before when I was on city water, kind of funny that my water source of all things was an issue for me but ultimately it was just a humbling experience to ensure the basics are always looked at first.

Proper Cal:Mag ratios should be 2:1-5:1, and this is why CalMag can hurt more than help some people. Some people use it to supplement Mg, but they're added so much extra Ca that it's locking out the Mg! If your water is anything like mine, every time you water will be like applying CalMag AND dolomite lime, so you'll want to take that into consideration. There will, however, be the odd instance of a plant that feeds on so much Mg that your water won't be enough. It is at that point you should look into supplementing Mg in the form of Epsom Salts, or Langbeinite for heavy feeders.

A well balanced soil is akin to that of a well balanced diet. You know how people recommend we eat certain foods to ensure that we maintain our daily values of vitamins and minerals? The same applies for plants; You have primary nutrients (NPK), secondary nutes (Ca,Mg, Su), and micro-nutes (Iron, Molybdenum, Boron, Copper, Manganese, Sodium, Zinc, Nickel, Chlorine, Silicon, Aluminium, etc.) The goal with making a soil is to ensure we have all of these nutrients, but like humans not all plants have the same nutritional needs. This is why it's best to start off with low amounts of everything, and supplement should you encounter any deficiencies. Crab, Kelp, and Neem Meals combined with mineral amendments take care of pretty much every macro and micro nutrient a plant could ever possibly need. Some plants won't need much extra nutrition, other plants will eat as much as you can give them and then some.

Again, glad to be of service if I can be. Nothing special, just someone who's learned the hard way with most things is all haha.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Again, awesome information. That's great to know, I didn't think about not having to spray all the surfaces since they're mobile. I have the Chapin sprayer that I haven't used yet, but just added the one you recommended to my Amazon cart.

I'm gonna have to check out Habanero because like you said if it can mess us up, it's gotta be messing the bugs up worse. I have heard a little about it, and it sounds like I would definitely have to wear my mask and maybe some goggles. It sounds like powerful shit.

We did have our water tested, but not for individual stuff. It came out.
TDS: 160
Hardness: 7gpg
Iron: Trace
Nitrate: Trace
H 2 S: Not Detected
PH: 7.2
But like you said I should check around for anyone with a water report around here. Im in a small town too, Conifer CO, but will post the question on our neighborhood forum.

I'm just a little worried that my water may have a little too much calcium, and Craft Blend does have some. Here's the ingredients.

Craft Blend weighs about 8.3 Ounces per cup

Ingredients all Equal by Weight:

1. Thorvin Premium Kelp Meal
2. Karanja Cake - Terviva
3. Alfalfa Meal
4. CalPhos
5. Camelina Meal
6. Crustacean Meal
7. Fish Meal
8. 3x Fish Bone Meal
9. Soybean Meal
10. Sul-Po-Mag (Also Known as K-Mag or Langbeinite)
11. Malted Barley Grains (3 Varieties)
12. Azomite
13. Basalt - Local Colorado
14. Gypsum
15. Oyster Flour

Adding up all of the Approximate NPK values published for these products from the manufacturer and then dividing by the amount of parts we end up with a very niceNPK guesstimate of 4-4-2. Once we get the blend tested we will publish actual results.

Thanks again, I'm learning a lot from you, and will be re reading your posts so I don't forget anything.

 

[kratos015]

You should likely be fine with your water then, sounds like yours is significantly lighter than mine and you shouldn't have my same issue.

The TDS on mine is 400+ and the pH fluctuates between an 8-8.5 depending on seasons, rainfall, etc.

I confirmed my hunch on my water using a pH test kit. Pretty much, if your water can't buffer the pH of peat moss then it likely doesn't contain enough calcium/minerals to cause the same problems it has for me. I grabbed a gallon of RO water from a water machine, and another gallon of my well water. I put the peat moss in a cup of RO water, and the peat moss in a cup of my well water. The pH of the RO water, as expected was ~3.5-4pH due to the natural acidity of peat moss. However my cup of well water and peat moss had a solid 6.5pH, my water was buffering the peat moss. So I did this experiment with my soil at the time right after, soil in a cup of RO water and soil in a cup of my water. Needless to say, the pH of my RO soil cup was perfect and the pH of my well water soil cup was an 8, the same as my water. Since my soil at the time had similar Calcium inputs to yours (Gypsum, OSF, Crab Meal) the pH of the soil was already being buffered, adding my well water to that wreaked havoc. Removing the calcium inputs in my next batch of soil has since resolved my issues.

However, seeing as my water has 2.5 times your TDS that means it has 2.5 times the amount of minerals (calcium) in it than yours does, so you likely won't experience the same pH issues that I did. Grab yourself a little pH color dropper test kit and you'll easily be able to check yourself, my apologies for not thinking of that sooner! Confirm the pH of your well water and the pH of your water soaking in your soil. If the pH of your soil cup is proper then you have nothing to worry about. But if the pH of your soil sample is over 7 then you know you've got too many calcium/buffering inputs and you'll need to omit some calcium inputs from your next batch.

In the mean time, is your scaling on water appliances bad? Happens quick over here, within a matter of weeks sometimes as opposed to months.

I'm suspecting that your well water will be fine with your soil/Craft blend ingredients just based on the information you've given me, but with that being said I would still highly recommend confirming this for yourself with a pH test kit.

Habanero spray is great though, it's just a bit intense in confined spaces without proper protection haha. Gloves, a shirt/bandana to cover your mouth and nose, and no shame in goggles either. Getting that shit in your eye is no joke. Not only is this essentially guaranteed to give results, it won't harm your plants in any way, is cheap and easily produced, but it can even be used 3-4 days before harvest because of how quickly it dissipates. The downside is that it needs to be applied often to produce results. You just boil the peppers in some water and turn it into a concentrate, straining the liquid pepper concentrate and diluting it at a 10:1 ratio per gallon in your pump sprayer and you're good to go.

The reason this works so well is that you're attacking what's universal to any and all pests, food. Their once unlimited source of food now becomes soaked in habanero pepper spray and now becomes somewhat of a cruel joke to them. Their buffet is right in front of them, but eating it is either too painful and even lethal in the cases of smaller pests. This is why you have to keep spraying though, because you're effectively starving the pests out by making their food supply too hot to eat. So after a while they'll die off, but you have to keep spraying to account for the various eggs that may not have hatched yet.

Pain in the ass, but well worth it and never fails.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

That's good to know about my water. I know it has some calcium, but I'm glad to hear it doesn't sound as bad as I thought.

I know my water has some buffering capabilities from having to adjust my my hot tub water, and a little scaling on faucets, but it does take a long time to get the scaling. My water likes to raise the ph a bit, but all my soil runoff water tests at the same 6.2 or so every time I have tested it. I got hooked up with a couple free ph test kits at a local hydro store so I check it occasionally, but not often. And don't apologies man, you are super helpful!

I just did a quick ph test on my water and it looks like around 7.2 like the report from awhile ago.


I'm really glad to hear my water doesn't sound like it has too much calcium in it. So far my plants look pretty happy and am gonna take some pics in a couple hours, they're at day 21 flowering now and are just waking up.

And thanks a lot for the directions on the habanero spray. I will definitely try that out if I see anything undesirable. I don't knows if I'll have to bust out my snowboarding goggles, but I have them in case I need em. I don't mind crying a little, but am more concerned with breathing it. I will wear a painters type mask so I don't have to breathe as much of it though.

Again you were super helpful. Thanks again.

 

[Redwood Ninja]

If you wanna grow organic look at TLO and get your soil right. Then you don't need nutes. This is hard to do so don't expect great results the first time. I will stick with my bottles of chemicals lol. They work and I have been told many time that my weed is the best so I am not concerned. Chemical nutes are easy peasy and I like that. No time for playing with worm bins and compost.

I'm offended. Lol I make my own super soil and compost and I have a worm farm ha ha it's fun for me and I feel like a mad scientist mixing all the amendments into the soil. I make compost teas too. But to each there own man. Your right, it is a lot of work but I enjoy it so it's all good. I got started reading True Living Organics. Great book

 

[Renfro]

I'm offended. Lol I make my own super soil and compost and I have a worm farm ha ha it's fun for me and I feel like a mad scientist mixing all the amendments into the soil. I make compost teas too. But to each there own man. Your right, it is a lot of work but I enjoy it so it's all good. I got started reading True Living Organics. Great book

Yeah that extra labor is all fine and dandy until you increase the scale of the operation, then it becomes too much, for me anyway.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Yeah that extra labor is all fine and dandy until you increase the scale of the operation, then it becomes too much, for me anyway.

It's a lot more work than I planned for sure. I was thinking soil was the easy way, but I'm trying no-till now and water only. But it is still a bitch having to water them everyday now that they are getting bigger, and they're in 15 gal pots already. I thought I would be able to water less with bigger pots, but it just seems to make the plants bigger. Are you in DWC like I'm guessing?

 

[Renfro]

It's a lot more work than I planned for sure. I was thinking soil was the easy way, but I'm trying no-till now and water only. But it is still a bitch having to water them everyday now that they are getting bigger, and they're in 15 gal pots already. I thought I would be able to water less with bigger pots, but it just seems to make the plants bigger. Are you in DWC like I'm guessing?

Berger BM6 and DNA Coco Cork, my tent is flood and drain

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Berger BM6 and DNA Coco Cork, my tent is flood and drain

I'm assuming it's automated? That would be nice.

 

[Renfro]

No.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

No.

Cool man. Your plants are huge, so I figured you had some fancy setup. I'm just getting a little tired of watering everyday, and I also have to use my shop vac since I don't have a drain. I could go 2 days without watering, but my plants and the soil life are happier with daily watering. I almost wish I didn't figure that out, and was still watering every other day, lol.

 

[Renfro]

I am always changing things up so it wouldn't pay for me to put a auto watering setup together. I may be doing RDWC next run for all I know. lol