Converting from synthetic line - need recommendations

PadawanWarrior · Aug 30, 2019

kratos015 said:
Regardless, they're both good products that have higher P levels than N so they'll both be fine for flower whichever you decide to use.

Most hydro store people are shills unfortunately. There are some good guys/stores out there, sure, but most are crap. They don't make money on growers succeeding, they make money on selling superfluous garbage to people that don't do their due diligence. Most hydro store "discounts" aren't actually discounts either. They mark up their prices super high and when they give you their "discount" it's similar in price to Amazon at best. I had the same "discount" at the hydro store I used to frequent way back in the day. They stopped being friendly to me when I was buying the same products over and over again and not falling for their upselling.

BAS is legit though. The guy not only knows what he's talking about (studied from Coots if I recall), but he provides a good quality product to boot. The only reason I don't use BAS is because the shipping costs are too high for me, likely because I'm too far from his headquarters or something. If you're getting good prices from BAS AND good shipping, definitely give the guy your business. A wise man once told me that each dollar bill in our wallets should be considered as a vote. With our dollar bills, we vote toward who we want to keep in business. Jeremy at BAS is much more worthy of our business than any hydro store or even Amazon.

A key takeaway for the living soil thing isn't just sustainability, but affordability. Use whatever is local and cheap to you. Crab Meal may be legit, but if you get a better price on guano and it's more local then by all means use it instead! The idea is to do it on the cheap and sustainably.

Thanks for the great advice. There is one real dumbass at the hydro store that keeps trying to sell me chemicals even though I'm growing organically. I actually had some words with him once when he made a smart ass comment, but he's been extra nice since. I can actually get a lot of the stuff cheaper from them than Amazon or online somewhere else, but things like flex hose and fans are more expensive from them. And the fact that I just found out they can order stuff for me from BAS and save me a little makes me pretty happy with them at the moment.

I actually have 3 types of guano that I haven't used on my cannabis plants yet. I did try experimenting with the 9-3-1 with some house plants and they kinda had some burn, so I was hesitant to add it on my plants. I have Indonesian 9-3-1, Mexican 8-1-1, and Madagascan 0-13-0. I'm just worried that it's a little too hot, but there is guano in the Earth Juice I've been using. I just don't want to kill my mycorrhizae fungi, and don't know how that would affect them. What are your thoughts. Thanks again.

kratos015 · Aug 31, 2019

PadawanWarrior said:
Thanks for the great advice. There is one real dumbass at the hydro store that keeps trying to sell me chemicals even though I'm growing organically. I actually had some words with him once when he made a smart ass comment, but he's been extra nice since. I can actually get a lot of the stuff cheaper from them than Amazon or online somewhere else, but things like flex hose and fans are more expensive from them. And the fact that I just found out they can order stuff for me from BAS and save me a little makes me pretty happy with them at the moment.

I actually have 3 types of guano that I haven't used on my cannabis plants yet. I did try experimenting with the 9-3-1 with some house plants and they kinda had some burn, so I was hesitant to add it on my plants. I have Indonesian 9-3-1, Mexican 8-1-1, and Madagascan 0-13-0. I'm just worried that it's a little too hot, but there is guano in the Earth Juice I've been using. I just don't want to kill my mycorrhizae fungi, and don't know how that would affect them. What are your thoughts. Thanks again.

And even once you've told them you grow organic they'll still try and sell you shit. Near a decade ago I had a decent hydro store, they had competitive prices, didn't try and upsell you garbage, knew about all of their products and were all around pleasant people. Stores like that don't come often anymore as far as I can tell.

Glad to help though. The guano should be fine, though I'd avoid the 0-13-0 myself as it's quite powerful. Guano is good stuff if you can get a good price on it, it's just "hot" is all.

All something means when people say "hot" is that it decomposes so quickly that it literally creates heat. Conversely, something like kelp, crab, and neem meal take time to decompose and so you won't have the issue with heat in your root zone. The composting process can generate temps of up to 150F, that'll make short work of your roots for sure. Just use the stuff in small doses and you'll be just fine.

Deketx · Sep 1, 2019

kratos015 said:
Absolutely no reason to be paranoid friend! This plant is pretty hard to kill believe it or not. Most plant death is from being loved to death. Out of all of the problems I've ever seen and dealt with personally it has very rarely ever been a true deficiency. I'd say only a handful of times in my experience has the problem ever been "They need more nutrients", you really would be surprised!

A deficiency is one of the easiest problems to fix, however you want to actually confirm it's a deficiency before acting.

Take bad pH for example. Bad pH levels will manifest itself in the form of nutrient deficiencies. But in this case, it isn't because you don't have enough nutrients in your soil. It's because the pH is out of whack and it's locking out access to the nutrients you already have.

Overwatering is another good example. Overwatering will cause the soil to become acidic, which will then cause pH lockout, which then causes "deficiencies".

I suppose the point I'm trying to make here is that "deficiencies" are a symptom of a deeper problem 9/10 times, maybe even 9.5/10 times. If you're seeing a deficiency of some sort, analyze everything else before using nutrients. Make sure you aren't overwatering, or that nothing is screwing with your pH, or you don't have pests/root rot, etc. Only once you've ruled everything else out, then you can add nutrients.

Lack of nutrients will not kill a plant, overreacting to a deficiency will.

Just be cautious my man, you'll be totally fine. Start a grow journal so that way you can get people to help out and chime in. The more input the better imo.

Those worm castings are ones that I have used before in the past. They work, but they're quite mediocre. If you're getting a good deal on it somewhere, then by all means use it. But there are better options, such as Malibu Compost or Coast of Maine's Lobster Compost. These composts cost the same price online as a bag of worm castings, but their quality is vastly superior and it's even a larger quantity to boot. The bags of compost come in 1cuft bags, 1cuft = 7.5g bucket/pot.

Again, please don't take it the wrong way. Those castings are decent and will work, there's just better products out there for the money is all. Most of the worm castings on the market are fed with mostly paper, it does make castings but the quality isn't as high as if the worms were fed quality compost and organic amendments instead. The aforementioned brands of compost on the other hand, are in fact made with quality in mind. You'll notice immediate results using them for sure. Once it comes time to top dress with compost again, consider grabbing come Malibu or Coast of Maine compost instead of more worm castings.

Castings and the compost brands I mentioned are quite light, so you can get away with top dressing every 1-2 weeks once the plants are 1ft tall plus. I just put enough compost on the top to cover the soil so I only see compost. I top dress again once I don't see compost anymore, anywhere between 1-2 weeks for me on average.

I use Recharge often, it's a quality product and comes quite in handy. You'll never overdo it with this stuff because the microbes will sort themselves out. I use Recharge every 1-2 weeks for my plants and for starting new batches of compost/soil. Recharge is essentially a "compost tea" in the sense that it's providing microbes (life) to your soil. The difference is that now you don't need to go through the process of making teas because Recharge simply goes in a 1g jug, shake it, apply. Simple. No need for buckets, teabags, airstones, etc. Simple is key here.

And on the subject of teas, I have always spoken against them personally. They aren't always "bad" but they're superfluous for sure and cause more problems than they solve. When people mention "teas", they mean either compost teas or "nutrient" teas.

Compost teas are usually simple teas made with molasses and compost and/or worm castings in a bucket of aerated water. These are quite redundant and at the expense of extra time and equipment. Why not simply top dress with that compost instead of making a tea out of it? Same thing for a new batch of soil, why not mix the compost into your new batch of soil instead of dunking a tea of it in there? It's never made sense to me, personally. I'm not faulting anyone for doing it by any means, it's just that it is redundant and unnecessary in my experience is all.

All of those nutrients teas you see on the other hand are the real problems. Do not use these under any circumstances. There are numerous reasons to not make a "tea" out of any organic amendments and/or Dr Earth type blends. Let me explain why these teas are dangerous and downright deadly, I've had the pleasure of finding this out the hard way.

Let's use Bat Guano as an example here. You can do one of two things with the guano, top dress with it or make it into a tea. You need to consider that both methods consist of very different reactions and events taking place here, top dressing puts the microbes in charge where as brewing teas turn this into an organic hydro style hybrid grow. Remember earlier when I mentioned that as you top dress with something, the plant's roots will signal to the microbes to start decomposing the top dress right? Guano in this case. When you top dress, the guano will slowly be watered into your soil and decomposed by the microbes according to the plant root's specific needs and requests. The top dress's nutrients will be available gradually, at the plant's discretion.

What happens when you turn the guano into a tea though? These same nutrients become available, immediately and all at once. Instead of the microbes in your soil processing the guano, the microbes in your bucket of aerated water is processing the guano. There's just one problem though, the nutrients in the form of microbe shit are binding to the water and not the soil. This means that all of the nutrients are available immediately instead of over time, and worse off the entire amount is available immediately. So what happens is these "nutrient teas" throw everything out of balance AND cause toxicities if too much guano, alfalfa meal, etc are used. Imagine the guano not taking weeks-months to decompose, but instead is available instantly. Even top dressing with guano can burn plants, making a tea out of it is catastrophic.

I you already have the emulsion, then use it once the plants are over 1ft tall. Emulsion is 5-1-1, so it's best for veg and the 1st week of flower. Hydrolysate is what you want for flower with it's 2-4-1 NPK.

These are just things to keep in mind as you need to top dress and the like in the future. What you already have right now is fine and will work. Just wait until your next top dress is up and grab the higher quality materials as you need them. Sorry about the book, but I hope it's useful.

Thank you for the great info!! This post alone taught me a lot. I'm on my first grow in many years( I started a journal to hopefully get input from pros like you). Well before all these options in soils, nutes, seed avail. Etc. I'm using Detroit Nutrient Company's water only soil, so I'm assuming what you said about top dressing would apply to my plants as well. Using a soil like this is new to me. Back in the day we'd grab bags from the nursery and some miracle grow and get after it, lol.
Again thanks for such great detailed information.

kratos015 · Sep 1, 2019

Deketx said:
Thank you for the great info!! This post alone taught me a lot. I'm on my first grow in many years( I started a journal to hopefully get input from pros like you). Well before all these options in soils, nutes, seed avail. Etc. I'm using Detroit Nutrient Company's water only soil, so I'm assuming what you said about top dressing would apply to my plants as well. Using a soil like this is new to me. Back in the day we'd grab bags from the nursery and some miracle grow and get after it, lol.
Again thanks for such great detailed information.

Happy to be of service, just an enthusiast nothing special here.

Top dressing applies to any and all soil though, you could even top dress Miracle Gro if you really wanted to. Top dressing is akin to using bottled nutrients in the sense that you're using them only when the soil itself is depleted of nutrients. The difference between top dressing is that it takes a few days to become available to your plants. That's why I do it every 2-4 weeks, depending on the strain and size of the plant. I top dress with ingredients that aren't "hot" such as kelp, neem and crab meals and then Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend (4-6-5) for flower because it's also light.

I looked up the soil though and it seems pretty legit in terms of nutrients and being a living soil, however there are a few things about it I'm noticing that you may want to know about. It has blood, bone, and feather meals in them. Those are good amendments, but they're pretty hot because of how quickly they break down. My concern with bagged soils like these is that they don't let it sit for as long as it needs to (trying to push product as quick as they can), which can be problematic for two reasons. For one, the compost may not be fully composted yet, so if you put small plants in that soil you're likely to burn the shit out of them and their roots. This is the same issue with the Blood, Bone, and Feather meals, you want those to "cook" (aka decompose) for a good 3-4 weeks otherwise it'll make your soil too hot as well.

In short, the soil looks good but it's likely going to be hot when used straight out of the bag. Some companies ensure they decompose their products enough, but many do not do this. Unless I can be certain of a company's reputation, I always assume I need to let the soil "cook" for a bit. Unless your plants are over a foot tall with a good root mass, you don't want to plant anything directly into that soil without a little prep work. Fortunately you do have options!

Option 1 would be to dump the soil in a pile, water and turn the soil daily. This is going to accomplish two things, the watering/turning of the soil will help decompose the compost and amendments enough to the point where the soil won't burn your plants. This option is going to require 3-4 weeks worth of time and labor though.

Option 2 is what I'd do personally. Get yourself some light soil to mix with the Detroit Soil so that you don't burn your plants. You can either buy it pre-made (Fox Farm's Happy Frog or Light Warrior are my recommendations) or you can make some yourself by simply mixing peat, perlite, and compost together. This is what is called a "base" soil, because it's completely basic for the sole purpose of starting off plants nice and slow. What you're going to do is "layer" your pots with your Detroit and Base soils. For the sake of simplicity, let's use an empty 10 gallon pot as an example here. The bottom 4g of soil will be your Detroit soil, above it will be 3g of Detroit and Base soil blended together, and the top 3g of soil will just be the base soil. The idea behind layering like this is so that you can start seedlings/clones in it immediately without having to wait like in option 1. This is because your clones will start in the base soil where there is zero risk of burning the roots/plant. Over time, the roots will grow down into the Detroit soil. By the time the roots have grown down into the Detroit soil it'll have broken down enough (and the root mass/plant will be big enough) to where you will have zero issues.

Keep in mind, that soil mix looks pretty potent to me like Subcool's supersoil. They're good mixes and they work quite well, there's just a risk of burning your plants is all. That's why I switched over to Coot's recipe, zero burn and little to no prep work. But, Coot's soil is significantly lighter than the aforementioned soils and so as a result I will be top dressing more than someone using a "hot" soil. With the ingredients in that Detroit mix you shouldn't have to top dress for a good 2 months or so, give or take. And not only that, you can even save some of the Detroit mix to the side for when you do need to top dress. That soil is powerful enough to be used on a top dress on it's own because of the ingredients that are in it. 8-10 weeks after planting you can start looking for signs of deficiencies and top dress accordingly.

HTH

swedsteven · Sep 1, 2019

My next grow in six week im going to use gaiagreen 4-4-4 and 2-8-4 with some oyester shell that i need to add for my old soil that being reuse for so much time.50%perlite and some compost let make the place stink again .long time no see

Im using dry nute right now but i did top dress 1 off my 18 5 gallon pot .
With 1 cup off bio alive and 2 cup off growilla bud then mix and some shrimp compost .at 4 week off 12/12 still 5 week to go i will give only water to this one plant .

Deketx · Sep 2, 2019

kratos015 said:
Happy to be of service, just an enthusiast nothing special here.

Top dressing applies to any and all soil though, you could even top dress Miracle Gro if you really wanted to. Top dressing is akin to using bottled nutrients in the sense that you're using them only when the soil itself is depleted of nutrients. The difference between top dressing is that it takes a few days to become available to your plants. That's why I do it every 2-4 weeks, depending on the strain and size of the plant. I top dress with ingredients that aren't "hot" such as kelp, neem and crab meals and then Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend (4-6-5) for flower because it's also light.

I looked up the soil though and it seems pretty legit in terms of nutrients and being a living soil, however there are a few things about it I'm noticing that you may want to know about. It has blood, bone, and feather meals in them. Those are good amendments, but they're pretty hot because of how quickly they break down. My concern with bagged soils like these is that they don't let it sit for as long as it needs to (trying to push product as quick as they can), which can be problematic for two reasons. For one, the compost may not be fully composted yet, so if you put small plants in that soil you're likely to burn the shit out of them and their roots. This is the same issue with the Blood, Bone, and Feather meals, you want those to "cook" (aka decompose) for a good 3-4 weeks otherwise it'll make your soil too hot as well.

In short, the soil looks good but it's likely going to be hot when used straight out of the bag. Some companies ensure they decompose their products enough, but many do not do this. Unless I can be certain of a company's reputation, I always assume I need to let the soil "cook" for a bit. Unless your plants are over a foot tall with a good root mass, you don't want to plant anything directly into that soil without a little prep work. Fortunately you do have options!

Option 1 would be to dump the soil in a pile, water and turn the soil daily. This is going to accomplish two things, the watering/turning of the soil will help decompose the compost and amendments enough to the point where the soil won't burn your plants. This option is going to require 3-4 weeks worth of time and labor though.

Option 2 is what I'd do personally. Get yourself some light soil to mix with the Detroit Soil so that you don't burn your plants. You can either buy it pre-made (Fox Farm's Happy Frog or Light Warrior are my recommendations) or you can make some yourself by simply mixing peat, perlite, and compost together. This is what is called a "base" soil, because it's completely basic for the sole purpose of starting off plants nice and slow. What you're going to do is "layer" your pots with your Detroit and Base soils. For the sake of simplicity, let's use an empty 10 gallon pot as an example here. The bottom 4g of soil will be your Detroit soil, above it will be 3g of Detroit and Base soil blended together, and the top 3g of soil will just be the base soil. The idea behind layering like this is so that you can start seedlings/clones in it immediately without having to wait like in option 1. This is because your clones will start in the base soil where there is zero risk of burning the roots/plant. Over time, the roots will grow down into the Detroit soil. By the time the roots have grown down into the Detroit soil it'll have broken down enough (and the root mass/plant will be big enough) to where you will have zero issues.

Keep in mind, that soil mix looks pretty potent to me like Subcool's supersoil. They're good mixes and they work quite well, there's just a risk of burning your plants is all. That's why I switched over to Coot's recipe, zero burn and little to no prep work. But, Coot's soil is significantly lighter than the aforementioned soils and so as a result I will be top dressing more than someone using a "hot" soil. With the ingredients in that Detroit mix you shouldn't have to top dress for a good 2 months or so, give or take. And not only that, you can even save some of the Detroit mix to the side for when you do need to top dress. That soil is powerful enough to be used on a top dress on it's own because of the ingredients that are in it. 8-10 weeks after planting you can start looking for signs of deficiencies and top dress accordingly.

HTH

Once again thank you for taking the time to explain things, and explain them thoroughly and clearly for those of us just getting back/starting new in this endeavour.
I'm glad to hear you think the Detroit Nutrient Co's soil looks legit. I always like to buy as local as possible, he's not around the block but closer than say one of the coasts, lol. I did a little investigating before deciding. It seems they have a good reputation in that area and in the industry around there.
Thomas, the owner, answered many emails I sent all very quickly, some within the hour.( before I ever ordered anyyhing. That's damn good cust. service IMO). I actually did ask about going directly into the soil with my seedlings. After seeing it mentioned so much, and you also bringing it up, shows that it is a big issue and one of the reasons to seek advice from those that have been there and done that. He assured me it would be just fine.
Also I'm not sure if this means anything but the soil was very light, airy, springy and dry to the touch but not devoid of moisture if this makes sense? I was amazed at how light the bags were when they arrived in the mail.
I actually got a few pics of the seedlings without the COB lights on when I was hooking up the new fan last night. You can see them much better, of course, and their color looks good to me, healthy. I'll add a couple to see what you think. I'll include my MacGyver attempt to hold up one of my tallest seedlings that just fell right over when I barely bumped the pot. She's almost 2" taller(5-5.5") than the others. I didn't have a fan on them yet, don't know if that would have made a diff in one weeks time or not, but I have a fan now, lol. Live and learn. Thanks again for all the great information!

kratos015 · Sep 2, 2019

Deketx said:
Once again thank you for taking the time to explain things, and explain them thoroughly and clearly for those of us just getting back/starting new in this endeavour.
I'm glad to hear you think the Detroit Nutrient Co's soil looks legit. I always like to buy as local as possible, he's not around the block but closer than say one of the coasts, lol. I did a little investigating before deciding. It seems they have a good reputation in that area and in the industry around there.
Thomas, the owner, answered many emails I sent all very quickly, some within the hour.( before I ever ordered anyyhing. That's damn good cust. service IMO). I actually did ask about going directly into the soil with my seedlings. After seeing it mentioned so much, and you also bringing it up, shows that it is a big issue and one of the reasons to seek advice from those that have been there and done that. He assured me it would be just fine.
Also I'm not sure if this means anything but the soil was very light, airy, springy and dry to the touch but not devoid of moisture if this makes sense? I was amazed at how light the bags were when they arrived in the mail.
I actually got a few pics of the seedlings without the COB lights on when I was hooking up the new fan last night. You can see them much better, of course, and their color looks good to me, healthy. I'll add a couple to see what you think. I'll include my MacGyver attempt to hold up one of my tallest seedlings that just fell right over when I barely bumped the pot. She's almost 2" taller(5-5.5") than the others. I didn't have a fan on them yet, don't know if that would have made a diff in one weeks time or not, but I have a fan now, lol. Live and learn. Thanks again for all the great information!

You're well on your way for sure my man. You said you have experience and the words you're saying as well as the photos confirm it. I understand trying something new can be a bit intimidating, but you have both experience and you're doing your due diligence. I think you're going to be surprised with your results for sure!

From what you're saying though, it does in fact sound like this guy is not only legit but is worthy of your continued business. Customer service is an excellent way to judge a product in my experience. If this guy cares enough about his product to not only answer questions happily, but in a timely fashion too that always says a lot!

If he's telling you to plant straight in the soil, then ignore what I said and do it. He knows full well the liability on his part by giving shit advice, and he won't have repeat customers if he does. If he says it's cool, I'm inclined to believe him due to what you've told me.

If the soil is light and dry, but still moist, that means the guy's compost is legit and that's why it has the texture that it does. All of the materials in his soil are very light (not light as in hot, but as in texture) but still retaining moisture than that tells me that his compost is totally legit. The compost is why the soil mix has that texture. When you water it and sniff on it, the soil should have a sweet earthy/dirt scent to it that is unmistakable. In fact, if you keep up with this, you'll get more of a high off smelling compost/soil than you will the actual buds haha. I never tire of that smell, it's incredible.

Love the bottle to hold them up though, some people might call if "Mickey Mouse" but I think that shit's genius and plan on incorporating that myself! Looks a hell of a lot better and easier than paper clips or baling wire.

Glad to be of service though my man. I got this information freely, and others should too. Furthermore, if everyone knew how to grow like this there'd be no more shit produce in the markets and we'd all actually remember what food tastes like again.

speakheavy · Sep 2, 2019

Richard Drysift said:
Yes. But they must be composted first. You can add in small amounts when you amend/recycle the soil but it still needs to be broken down first in order to become available to your plants. Also add in any cannabis material from harvest like fan leaves or sifted trims.I add all my spend coffee grounds to my worm bin. It is a good form of N once decomposed. Huge benefit of having a worm bin is literally feeding your plants decomposing kitchen scraps.

PadawanWarrior said:
I have the Fish 2-4-1 on my list for the hydro store. I'm guessing that would be better in flower since it has a little more P. I've learned not to ask most of the hydro shop people anything. Some are pretty clueless, but I have one a few minutes away, and I get a discount off everything. I just realized they can even get my stuff cheaper from Build A Soil if they order it for me. I got like 20 lbs of BAS rice hulls for $16, so now I'm pretty happy with them.

So my tap water is naturally 8.4ph which is very high, which explains why my cuttings have been taking extremely long to root, which got me thinking is ph down and up going to be a problem to use? the fish emultion is like 2.4ph mixed with the water even diluted down, I know youre not exactly supposed to worry about ph with organic soil but these plants I have now are just small and in solo cups, the transplant with recharge and all that into organic soil hasnt happened yet, I just dont want to hurt seedlings with 2.4ph plant food, that's like pouring a can of coke on the plants hahaha. This was all brought to my attention when diagnosing my ezcloner and finding my ph meter in the same day, the ezclone res is now 6.05ph which is great for the cuttings but I'm just worried about affecting the small plants like I said.

So far they've gotten: tap water (didn't know the ph was so high until now), a splash of the fish emultion, and foliar fed with diluted liquid kelp.

I'm just unsure if I should not worry about ph at all using all organic stuff even not yet transplanted in my organic soil mix
Thanks for the input.

more details:

2 clones-
Miracle Alien Cookies (MAC)
Amnesia Haze

1 seedling actually from seed (fem) -
Gorilla Glue

clone runoff is at 4.9-5 for every plant right now, I believe they're sitting in just regular promix (my seed is, Idk what the guy I got the cuttings from used in his cups)

PS all 3 of these plants look amazing and Ive had no issues so far, I'm making this post out of sheer caution haha, see the pic for progress

Also have Super Skunk in the ezcloner

speakheavy · Sep 2, 2019

speakheavy said:
So my tap water is naturally 8.4ph which is very high, which explains why my cuttings have been taking extremely long to root, which got me thinking is ph down and up going to be a problem to use? the fish emultion is like 2.4ph mixed with the water even diluted down, I know youre not exactly supposed to worry about ph with organic soil but these plants I have now are just small and in solo cups, the transplant with recharge and all that into organic soil hasnt happened yet, I just dont want to hurt seedlings with 2.4ph plant food, that's like pouring a can of coke on the plants hahaha. This was all brought to my attention when diagnosing my ezcloner and finding my ph meter in the same day, the ezclone res is now 6.05ph which is great for the cuttings but I'm just worried about affecting the small plants like I said.

So far they've gotten: tap water (didn't know the ph was so high until now), a splash of the fish emultion, and foliar fed with diluted liquid kelp.

I'm just unsure if I should not worry about ph at all using all organic stuff even not yet transplanted in my organic soil mix
Thanks for the input.

more details:

2 clones-
Miracle Alien Cookies (MAC)
Amnesia Haze

1 seedling actually from seed (fem) -
Gorilla Glue

clone runoff is at 4.9-5 for every plant right now, I believe they're sitting in just regular promix (my seed is, Idk what the guy I got the cuttings from used in his cups)

PS all 3 of these plants look amazing and Ive had no issues so far, I'm making this post out of sheer caution haha, see the pic for progressView attachment 4388878

Also have Super Skunk in the ezcloner

kratos015 said:
You're well on your way for sure my man. You said you have experience and the words you're saying as well as the photos confirm it. I understand trying something new can be a bit intimidating, but you have both experience and you're doing your due diligence. I think you're going to be surprised with your results for sure!

From what you're saying though, it does in fact sound like this guy is not only legit but is worthy of your continued business. Customer service is an excellent way to judge a product in my experience. If this guy cares enough about his product to not only answer questions happily, but in a timely fashion too that always says a lot!

If he's telling you to plant straight in the soil, then ignore what I said and do it. He knows full well the liability on his part by giving shit advice, and he won't have repeat customers if he does. If he says it's cool, I'm inclined to believe him due to what you've told me.

If the soil is light and dry, but still moist, that means the guy's compost is legit and that's why it has the texture that it does. All of the materials in his soil are very light (not light as in hot, but as in texture) but still retaining moisture than that tells me that his compost is totally legit. The compost is why the soil mix has that texture. When you water it and sniff on it, the soil should have a sweet earthy/dirt scent to it that is unmistakable. In fact, if you keep up with this, you'll get more of a high off smelling compost/soil than you will the actual buds haha. I never tire of that smell, it's incredible.

Love the bottle to hold them up though, some people might call if "Mickey Mouse" but I think that shit's genius and plan on incorporating that myself! Looks a hell of a lot better and easier than paper clips or baling wire.

Glad to be of service though my man. I got this information freely, and others should too. Furthermore, if everyone knew how to grow like this there'd be no more shit produce in the markets and we'd all actually remember what food tastes like again.

meant to tag kratos in this

Deketx · Sep 3, 2019

The whole ph thing worries me. We never worried about that back in the day. Water was water. I'm in organic soil as well, I'm using distilled , I know my tap water is hard water. I guess it's some point I'm going to have to get a pH meter, and start dealing with that.

Renfro · Sep 3, 2019

No need to worry about pH until the cuttings have roots.

Richard Drysift · Sep 3, 2019

speakheavy said:
So my tap water is naturally 8.4ph which is very high, which explains why my cuttings have been taking extremely long to root, which got me thinking is ph down and up going to be a problem to use? the fish emultion is like 2.4ph mixed with the water even diluted down, I know youre not exactly supposed to worry about ph with organic soil but these plants I have now are just small and in solo cups, the transplant with recharge and all that into organic soil hasnt happened yet, I just dont want to hurt seedlings with 2.4ph plant food, that's like pouring a can of coke on the plants hahaha. This was all brought to my attention when diagnosing my ezcloner and finding my ph meter in the same day, the ezclone res is now 6.05ph which is great for the cuttings but I'm just worried about affecting the small plants like I said.

So far they've gotten: tap water (didn't know the ph was so high until now), a splash of the fish emultion, and foliar fed with diluted liquid kelp.

I'm just unsure if I should not worry about ph at all using all organic stuff even not yet transplanted in my organic soil mix
Thanks for the input.

more details:

2 clones-
Miracle Alien Cookies (MAC)
Amnesia Haze

1 seedling actually from seed (fem) -
Gorilla Glue

clone runoff is at 4.9-5 for every plant right now, I believe they're sitting in just regular promix (my seed is, Idk what the guy I got the cuttings from used in his cups)

PS all 3 of these plants look amazing and Ive had no issues so far, I'm making this post out of sheer caution haha, see the pic for progressView attachment 4388878

Also have Super Skunk in the ezcloner

Don't worry about ph. Runoff tells you nothing. Ph also has no bearing on how fast clones root and it wouldn't matter what the ph of the water in your cloner is until there are roots growing anyway. If you have to keep rooted clones in a cloner for an extended length of time then you would need to add nutrients and adjust the ph until you can transplant to soil.
The soil itself buffers the ph. If you are using a ph balanced soil mix the roots will absorb the full range of available npk and macros. You need a decent quality soil probe to check ph with accuracy. Whatever you adjust the water or nutrient mix to has minimal affect on the actual ph of the soil in the root zone.

speakheavy · Sep 4, 2019

Richard Drysift said:
Don't worry about ph. Runoff tells you nothing. Ph also has no bearing on how fast clones root and it wouldn't matter what the ph of the water in your cloner is until there are roots growing anyway. If you have to keep rooted clones in a cloner for an extended length of time then you would need to add nutrients and adjust the ph until you can transplant to soil.
The soil itself buffers the ph. If you are using a ph balanced soil mix the roots will absorb the full range of available npk and macros. You need a decent quality soil probe to check ph with accuracy. Whatever you adjust the water or nutrient mix to has minimal affect on the actual ph of the soil in the root zone.

Thanks for the knowledge. No idea why my cuttings are refusing to root :/
Off topic question, I got the Charlie's compost bag like you mentioned earlier in the thread and the bag is very dry, it looks like dirt. Forgive me for I know nothing about compost but is compost supposed to be moist/wet? I'm not sure how microbes behave in super dry conditions or anything like that

Deketx · Sep 5, 2019

speakheavy said:
Thanks for the knowledge. No idea why my cuttings are refusing to root :/
Off topic question, I got the Charlie's compost bag like you mentioned earlier in the thread and the bag is very dry, it looks like dirt. Forgive me for I know nothing about compost but is compost supposed to be moist/wet? I'm not sure how microbes behave in super dry conditions or anything like that

If it is like the soil I used it confused me as well. But being dry is how it was supposed to be. And if it's like what I have it'll be somewhat hydrophobic at first which is really weird to see water not want to go into dirt

kratos015 · Sep 5, 2019

speakheavy said:
meant to tag kratos in this

Forgive me but I don't have much experience with an EZ Cloner, so I can't be of much use there.

Fortunately, the issues with clones not rooting are typically always the same. The most common reasons are; 1) Equipment wasn't sterilized, 2) Air got into the hole in the stem due to the clones not being placed in water/plugs immediately. 3) Not enough humidity, or water becomes stagnant, or 4) The plant just does not like being cloned.

Always work with clean/sterile equipment otherwise you run the risk of infection, similar to us when we get cut by something.

As for cloning, the clones need to be put into water or cloning gel the split second you cut them. Otherwise, air gets into the stems and starts to seal things up and this will make cloning difficult if not downright impossible.

An EZ Cloner is just pretty much a res with a dome above it correct? Are you constantly spraying the dome with water to ensure the humidity is constantly above 80%? Clones rely on humidity to receive water since they do not have roots yet. You likely won't have an issue with stagnent water since you probably have an air stone of some sort pumping air into the water in the res? For those that use clone domes though, the water needs to be replaced every 24 hours or it will become stagnant.

And lastly, some strains just do not take to cloning well at all. Clones will tell you when they do or don't like being cloned. If you've done everything right and still aren't seeing any signs of roots after ~7-10 days then the strain just simply doesn't like being cloned. In my personal experience, some indica strains just hate being cloned. Some indicas will take damn near 14 days to root, and even if they do root it'll constantly be an uphill battle with these clones that will make you wish you just bought more seeds instead. Most sativas respond quite well to cloning, usually producing roots in ~7 days give or take.

I have no experience with Cookies strains, so someone else can chime in to confirm if I'm correct or not, but I've always heard that GSC strains are an absolute nightmare to clone. The Amnesia Haze will likely produce roots first.

If you have access to an Aloe Vera plant, make use of it. Aloe is amazing for cloning, you can make cloning gel out of it and you can make a foliar feed to spray your unrooted clones with to boot. You know how Aloe works on burns right? Soothes the burn and helps it heal way faster than it normally would. Apply that to a clone, it's the exact same principle here. It soothes the cut on the clone and provides rooting hormones to the clone. I only use rooting gel when I'm out of Aloe. Aloe is invasive, you can grab a cutting or two from any big box hardware store and they'll quickly spread throughout your yard/garden.

Deketx said:
The whole ph thing worries me. We never worried about that back in the day. Water was water. I'm in organic soil as well, I'm using distilled , I know my tap water is hard water. I guess it's some point I'm going to have to get a pH meter, and start dealing with that.

pH is somewhat deceptive. In ideal circumstances you really don't have to worry about it, especially in organics because the microbes are responsible for controlling the pH for you. So there is definitely a good deal of truth when people say "You don't have to worry about pH in organics/living soil". However, that doesn't mean you can't have issues with pH. If you use peat, but don't put a buffer in it, you'll have pH issues for sure and no amount of microbes will fix that. If your water is hard like mine (8-8.5pH due to all the Calcium in it) then you can also run the risk of pH issues. Water isn't always hard because of the same reasons. "Hard water" just means that it has tons of minerals/elements in it, but they won't always be the same thing. For instance, my water is hard because it has a shit ton of calcium in it. Other people's water may be hard simply because of Chlorine or Chloramine, another person's water may be hard because of excess Iron, and so on.

If you're in doubt about what makes your water hard and how it will react to your soil/pH, then like anything else it is best to err on the side of caution. If in doubt, go with RO water and CalMag in case you need it. pH issues typically arise from a lack of a buffer in the soil, because of poor quality water, or overwatering. Everything can be absolutely perfect, but if you overwater then you are going to create acidic soil conditions as well as anaerobic conditions. Overwatering is one of the worst things that you can do because it will cause a shit load of issues including acidic pH, anaerobic bacteria, fungus gnats/pests, root rot, and a severe lack of oxygen in the soil/root zone. Other than that, you shouldn't have any pH issues as your soil will regulate it more often than not. If you're curious, soak some of the organic amendments you have in water and check the pH of them and you'll see just how different the pH of all of these various ingredients are. Or rain water for instance, rain water is more on the acidic side but it's not going to ruin your soil.

HTH, and sorry for the delayed response. School, work, family, and the greenhouse take up the bulk of my time and on top of that one of my plants was ready to harvest and it took a lot more work than I expected it would. Always happy to help when and if I can.

kratos015 · Sep 5, 2019

speakheavy said:
Thanks for the knowledge. No idea why my cuttings are refusing to root :/
Off topic question, I got the Charlie's compost bag like you mentioned earlier in the thread and the bag is very dry, it looks like dirt. Forgive me for I know nothing about compost but is compost supposed to be moist/wet? I'm not sure how microbes behave in super dry conditions or anything like that

Charlie's compost is the chicken manure right? I've heard nothing but good things about it, though I've also heard it should be used in smallish doses because it can be pretty hot.

You have it half right though; compost itself isn't supposed to be moist/wet but rather it retains moisture/water.

Deketx said:
If it is like the soil I used it confused me as well. But being dry is how it was supposed to be. And if it's like what I have it'll be somewhat hydrophobic at first which is really weird to see water not want to go into dirt

Your soil has peat moss in it, and the peat moss is what is hydrophobic in the mix. Coco isn't hydrophobic, but it also has half the CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) that Peat Moss does. Peat Moss can be a bit tricky, because if you don't keep things moist then you run the risk of dry pockets appearing in your soil. This is where the perlite and compost comes in. The compost retains the moisture and slowly adds it to the rest of your soil mix over time, the perlite allows you to water without fear of too much stagnant water remaining in your soil because of the drainage power the perlite has.

As you can see, the perlite, peat moss, and compost all have their pros and their cons. However, the cons of each of them are balanced out by the other. Peat Moss is hydrophobic, so the compost retains moisture to ensure the peat moss has something to wick moisture from to stay moist. The perlite ensures that your soil stays oxygenated and that you don't have any water staying stagnant in your soil. And the Peat Moss ensure the compost doesn't stay too moist while creating the CEC to allow for nutrients to move throughout the soil.

Deketx · Sep 5, 2019

Again, thank you for your replys. Super informative. I hear you about being busy. I'm about to go back to school in Oct.. 2nd career time. Except this time no parties, sorority babes, and day drinking! LOL
Id like to post a couple pictures later. And get your and others opinions. I was going to wait until Sat. The 2 week mark, but I'm concerned. They just don't look like they are on track size wise. I dropped the light today about 4". The Manuf. Calls for it to be 2" lower around 2nd week so im easing in. But I don't know if that is my issue.

Deketx · Sep 5, 2019

kratos015 said:
Charlie's compost is the chicken manure right? I've heard nothing but good things about it, though I've also heard it should be used in smallish doses because it can be pretty hot.

You have it half right though; compost itself isn't supposed to be moist/wet but rather it retains moisture/water.

Your soil has peat moss in it, and the peat moss is what is hydrophobic in the mix. Coco isn't hydrophobic, but it also has half the CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) that Peat Moss does. Peat Moss can be a bit tricky, because if you don't keep things moist then you run the risk of dry pockets appearing in your soil. This is where the perlite and compost comes in. The compost retains the moisture and slowly adds it to the rest of your soil mix over time, the perlite allows you to water without fear of too much stagnant water remaining in your soil because of the drainage power the perlite has.

As you can see, the perlite, peat moss, and compost all have their pros and their cons. However, the cons of each of them are balanced out by the other. Peat Moss is hydrophobic, so the compost retains moisture to ensure the peat moss has something to wick moisture from to stay moist. The perlite ensures that your soil stays oxygenated and that you don't have any water staying stagnant in your soil. And the Peat Moss ensure the compost doesn't stay too moist while creating the CEC to allow for nutrients to move throughout the soil.

So this day 12. They look too small to me? They are autos. 5 gal pots.They haven't shown like they need water, or anything else. Just not growing very fast. And the first 2-3 weeks of an autos life is important, from what I've been told. What do y'all

think? Water bottle cap for size reference.

kratos015 · Sep 7, 2019

I don't know much about autos unfortunately, so I can't be too much of service.

Those do look fairly normal for plants that are only 12 days old though.

The thing to consider is that for seedlings/clones, the plant will focus more on growing the roots than it will the plant itself. Typically, the growth you see above the soil is a reflection of the growth going on with the roots. For example, the size of your root mass is probably the size of the plant itself right now. You won't see too much growth above the soil until the roots have filled out more of the pot. Give it another week or two and you'll start getting noticeable growth. With seedlings, for the first 3-4 weeks the name of the game is just getting them to survive. Once the roots are established they'll start growing along.

They look healthy and don't look unhappy in the least, so they'll be on their way in due time.

At least, they should be. I still don't know much about autoflowers, so unfortunately I can't exactly speak from experience aside form how I've seen normal seedlings grow.

PadawanWarrior · Sep 11, 2019

kratos015 said:
Forgive me but I don't have much experience with an EZ Cloner, so I can't be of much use there.

Fortunately, the issues with clones not rooting are typically always the same. The most common reasons are; 1) Equipment wasn't sterilized, 2) Air got into the hole in the stem due to the clones not being placed in water/plugs immediately. 3) Not enough humidity, or water becomes stagnant, or 4) The plant just does not like being cloned.

Always work with clean/sterile equipment otherwise you run the risk of infection, similar to us when we get cut by something.

As for cloning, the clones need to be put into water or cloning gel the split second you cut them. Otherwise, air gets into the stems and starts to seal things up and this will make cloning difficult if not downright impossible.

An EZ Cloner is just pretty much a res with a dome above it correct? Are you constantly spraying the dome with water to ensure the humidity is constantly above 80%? Clones rely on humidity to receive water since they do not have roots yet. You likely won't have an issue with stagnent water since you probably have an air stone of some sort pumping air into the water in the res? For those that use clone domes though, the water needs to be replaced every 24 hours or it will become stagnant.

And lastly, some strains just do not take to cloning well at all. Clones will tell you when they do or don't like being cloned. If you've done everything right and still aren't seeing any signs of roots after ~7-10 days then the strain just simply doesn't like being cloned. In my personal experience, some indica strains just hate being cloned. Some indicas will take damn near 14 days to root, and even if they do root it'll constantly be an uphill battle with these clones that will make you wish you just bought more seeds instead. Most sativas respond quite well to cloning, usually producing roots in ~7 days give or take.

I have no experience with Cookies strains, so someone else can chime in to confirm if I'm correct or not, but I've always heard that GSC strains are an absolute nightmare to clone. The Amnesia Haze will likely produce roots first.

If you have access to an Aloe Vera plant, make use of it. Aloe is amazing for cloning, you can make cloning gel out of it and you can make a foliar feed to spray your unrooted clones with to boot. You know how Aloe works on burns right? Soothes the burn and helps it heal way faster than it normally would. Apply that to a clone, it's the exact same principle here. It soothes the cut on the clone and provides rooting hormones to the clone. I only use rooting gel when I'm out of Aloe. Aloe is invasive, you can grab a cutting or two from any big box hardware store and they'll quickly spread throughout your yard/garden.

pH is somewhat deceptive. In ideal circumstances you really don't have to worry about it, especially in organics because the microbes are responsible for controlling the pH for you. So there is definitely a good deal of truth when people say "You don't have to worry about pH in organics/living soil". However, that doesn't mean you can't have issues with pH. If you use peat, but don't put a buffer in it, you'll have pH issues for sure and no amount of microbes will fix that. If your water is hard like mine (8-8.5pH due to all the Calcium in it) then you can also run the risk of pH issues. Water isn't always hard because of the same reasons. "Hard water" just means that it has tons of minerals/elements in it, but they won't always be the same thing. For instance, my water is hard because it has a shit ton of calcium in it. Other people's water may be hard simply because of Chlorine or Chloramine, another person's water may be hard because of excess Iron, and so on.

If you're in doubt about what makes your water hard and how it will react to your soil/pH, then like anything else it is best to err on the side of caution. If in doubt, go with RO water and CalMag in case you need it. pH issues typically arise from a lack of a buffer in the soil, because of poor quality water, or overwatering. Everything can be absolutely perfect, but if you overwater then you are going to create acidic soil conditions as well as anaerobic conditions. Overwatering is one of the worst things that you can do because it will cause a shit load of issues including acidic pH, anaerobic bacteria, fungus gnats/pests, root rot, and a severe lack of oxygen in the soil/root zone. Other than that, you shouldn't have any pH issues as your soil will regulate it more often than not. If you're curious, soak some of the organic amendments you have in water and check the pH of them and you'll see just how different the pH of all of these various ingredients are. Or rain water for instance, rain water is more on the acidic side but it's not going to ruin your soil.

HTH, and sorry for the delayed response. School, work, family, and the greenhouse take up the bulk of my time and on top of that one of my plants was ready to harvest and it took a lot more work than I expected it would. Always happy to help when and if I can.

Hey Kratos, I have another question for ya. I see it sounds like you have water similar to mine with lots of calcium already. I was looking for a magnesium only additive and was thinking of top dressing with some horticultural epsom salt from BAS. What do you think, and what would be a safe amount to add to a 15 gal pot of living soil?
Thanks again for all your help.

Converting from synthetic line - need recommendations

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