Biden won't beat Trump

Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
There are only 12 Populist Progressive left serving in Congress right now. Your mass of Progressives thirsting for Bernie exists only in your imagination.
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What about the institutional disadvantage someone like Sanders is subject to by challenging the political establishment?

Progressives are stifled at every turn they try to enter into congress and gain any kind of political power to change the status quo. You act as if that doesn't matter or doesn't change the atmosphere in which candidates are elected.

The reality is, your team cheats to win, that's why much more of them win elections. It's much more difficult for honest candidates to win who aren't beholden to corporate donors, that's why there are fewer of them. Again, SHOCKING!

Sit here and gloat about all the seats your team is able to steal, now. Because it won't last forever..
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
What about the institutional disadvantage someone like Sanders is subject to by challenging the political establishment?

Progressives are stifled at every turn they try to enter into congress and gain any kind of political power to change the status quo. You act as if that doesn't matter or doesn't change the atmosphere in which candidates are elected.

The reality is, your team cheats to win, that's why much more of them win elections. It's much more difficult for honest candidates to win who aren't beholden to corporate donors, that's why there are fewer of them. Again, SHOCKING!

Sit here and gloat about all the seats your team is able to steal, now. Because it won't last forever..
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Who is gloating? I'm just saying there is no evidence of this wellspring of liberal voters who would rather have Trump than an "establishment Democrat". None. I like the Progressive left wing of the Democratic party too. It's just that there aren't many of them and every one of them came from safe liberal districts, not contested ones that are likely to be battground districts in the upcoming election. I really like AOC's Green New Deal. I think Ilhan Omar is a warrior and support her.

But really, dude. If there were a lot of like-minded Progressive Left people in the heartland, do you really think that 27 out of 50 states would have Republican governors? Where is the proof of your assertion? I'd listen to something factual but all you talk about is "DNC cheating". Do you actually think the DNC conspired to get those 27 Republican governors seated? Or do you think those Progressive left would rather have hardcore conservatives in charge? Come on man, get a grip. The best explanation of why this country is in the grip of conservatives is that most people are conservative. The Democratic Party has a lot to offer those conservatives but it's not free stuff for everybody.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Who is gloating? I'm just saying there is no evidence of this wellspring of liberal voters who would rather have Trump than an "establishment Democrat". None. I like the Progressive left wing of the Democratic party too. It's just that there aren't many of them and every one of them came from safe liberal districts, not contested ones that are likely to be battground districts in the upcoming election. I really like AOC's Green New Deal. I think Ilhan Omar is a warrior and support her.

But really, dude. If there were a lot of like-minded Progressive Left people in the heartland, do you really think that 27 out of 50 states would have Republican governors? Where is the proof of your assertion? I'd listen to something factual but all you talk about is "DNC cheating". Do you actually think the DNC conspired to get those 27 Republican governors seated? Or do you think those Progressive left would rather have hardcore conservatives in charge? Come on man, get a grip. The best explanation of why this country is in the grip of conservatives is that most people are conservative. The Democratic Party has a lot to offer those conservatives but it's not free stuff for everybody.
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Then why do you deny supporting the most conservative Democratic candidate?

You think most Americans are conservative. It stands to reason you believe the most conservative Dem candidate will defeat Trump. So why do you continue to deny you support the most conservative/centrist Dem candidate?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Then why do you deny supporting the most conservative Democratic candidate?

You think most Americans are conservative. It stands to reason you believe the most conservative Dem candidate will defeat Trump. So why do you continue to deny you support the most conservative/centrist Dem candidate?
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Stick to facts.

Most people vote for conservative representatives.

Most likely explanation: Most people are conservative. Most people say they are conservative when asked too.

Your explanation: You flip flop. Sometimes you say DNC cheated. Sometimes you say Progressive left would rather have a firebrand conservative than a moderate Democrat.

Your leap of faith about me lying about not supporting Biden is mind boggling-stupid. When I look at how people have voted, it's easy to see that more people are more conservative than I am. I don't like Biden. I'd vote for him over Trump, though. That doesn't mean squat about my political leanings or who I'm going to vote for in the Oregon primary. I quite honestly can't say but I lean against Biden, Bernie and Gabbard.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Stick to facts.

Most people vote for conservative representatives.

Most likely explanation: Most people are conservative. Most people say they are conservative when asked too.

Your explanation: You flip flop. Sometimes you say DNC cheated. Sometimes you say Progressive left would rather have a firebrand conservative than a moderate Democrat.

Your leap of faith about me lying about not supporting Biden is mind boggling-stupid. When I look at how people have voted, it's easy to see that more people are more conservative than I am. I don't like Biden. I'd vote for him over Trump, though. That doesn't mean squat about my political leanings or who I'm going to vote for in the Oregon primary. I quite honestly can't say but I lean against Biden, Bernie and Gabbard.
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If you don't believe a more progressive viewpoint can't defeat Trump, then you must believe someone going more conservative can, right?

Take a side or be quiet. Where are you at this time around?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
If you don't believe a more progressive viewpoint can't defeat Trump, then you must believe someone going more conservative can, right?

Take a side or be quiet. Where are you at this time around?
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You keep making up stuff that I said. It makes sense because that's the only way you can feel like you "won".

I think any Democrat can beat Trump except Bernie who is probably the worst campaigner in this or any election of the modern era.

Most people vote conservative, which probably means people with extreme positions will have a hard time winning the nomination. That doesn't mean they can't win but they have to be good at projecting leadership skills and can make their case to a skeptical audience. Cycle back to my comment about Bernie.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I think any Democrat can beat Trump except Bernie who is probably the worst campaigner in this or any election of the modern era.
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I think you're full of shit and living in your own dream world. You've been working overtime ignoring all the evidence we've brought to the table and now you're going to try and sell the idea that Biden or one of the other corporate drones can beat Trump?

Your weed must be good; your delusions have lasted a long time.
 
Herb & Suds

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Like who?

Populist progressive left is the only way to defeat Trump

Milquetoast centrist candidates like Biden won't energize the progressive base. People don't care enough to go out and vote for a candidate that doesn't offer them anything in return, and "Trump BAD!" didn't work in 2016, it most assuredly won't work in 2020

Like I said before, vote for a candidate like Biden in the Dem primary and you're ensuring Trump's 2nd term
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Or in my own words...You are going to get Trump elected if you push the far left agenda
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
I think you're full of shit and living in your own dream world. You've been working overtime ignoring all the evidence we've brought to the table and now you're going to try and sell the idea that Biden or one of the other corporate drones can beat Trump?

Your weed must be good; your delusions have lasted a long time.
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Not a single fact in any of your and Pad's posts. Just conjecture and hyperbole. No wonder both of you are losers.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Not a single fact in any of your and Pad's posts. Just conjecture and hyperbole. No wonder both of you are losers.
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Ya know, this is their high point. From here on in their influence on the process will wane. I am not so much talking about their "issues" but of their tactics. First off, they don't own "progressive" issues no matter how much they arrogate themselves into thinking that they do. Secondly, this bullshit about basing their positions on fake news will not be missed and must be purged for the sake of the country. They are dancing to a tune straight out of Leningrad and designed to benefit Trump. Thirdly, this egotistical denuncification of all those who oppose them has to stop. Their reliance on litmus tests shows that they have simple minded views about politics.

I am against them because they are a bunch of misguided ideologues who represent authoritarian viewpoints and have no respect for anybody who does not think the way they do. If the country has gotten more liberal, it will make that known and I will welcome it. I don't think for a minute that they will be invited into the process. They will be dis-satisfied no matter what happens because their thought-guides will tell them to be.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
Ya know, this is their high point. From here on in their influence on the process will wane. I am not so much talking about their "issues" but of their tactics. First off, they don't own "progressive" issues no matter how much they arrogate themselves into thinking that they do. Secondly, this bullshit about basing their positions on fake news will not be missed and must be purged for the sake of the country. They are dancing to a tune straight out of Leningrad and designed to benefit Trump. Thirdly, this egotistical denuncification of all those who oppose them has to stop. Their reliance on litmus tests shows that they have simple minded views about politics.

I am against them because they are a bunch of misguided ideologues who represent authoritarian viewpoints and have no respect for anybody who does not think the way they do. If the country has gotten more liberal, it will make that known and I will welcome it. I don't think for a minute that they will be invited into the process. They will be dis-satisfied no matter what happens because their thought-guides will tell them to be.
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yeah,

Their thought guides have ruined them forever. Pad was actually arguing that people want the government to force them into government-provided health care. A poll isn't needed to know that a lead balloon won't fly.

I think you are right. The discussion last night was all about denial and desperation. Outright lies too. The high point wasn't all that high anyway. It depended on disregarding the voice of black people and women as well as a deceptive narrative about Bernie's Medicare for all bill. I won't put them on ignore because I look forward to watching them become more and more unhinged as they watch their influence shrivel to almost zero.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
If you don't believe a more progressive viewpoint can't defeat Trump, then you must believe someone going more conservative can, right?

Take a side or be quiet. Where are you at this time around?
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if that's fogdog, he's going to 'wait and see' who the winner is before committing..brain so scrambled, he may not be sure even then.:lol:
 
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Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Herb & Suds said:
Or in my own words...You are going to get Trump elected if you push the far left agenda
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There's nothing 'far left' about Sanders agenda. By international standards, it's pretty moderate. Candidates like Biden and Clinton are third way Democrats who support a neoliberal, corporate friendly agenda that mirrors the Republican agenda in economics. Laissez-faire capitalism, deregulation, etc.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
There's nothing 'far left' about Sanders agenda. By international standards, it's pretty moderate. Candidates like Biden and Clinton are third way Democrats who support a neoliberal, corporate friendly agenda that mirrors the Republican agenda in economics. Laissez-faire capitalism, deregulation, etc.
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Biden and Clinton are not neoliberal. You are confused again. Just like when you said Medicare is just like private insurance.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Herb & Suds said:
Or in my own words...You are going to get Trump elected if you push the far left agenda
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Pad will say anything. Earlier he said that private insurance is just like Medicare. Now he's saying that forcing people into a government run system is moderate.
 
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