MG deficiency, help with epsom salt

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
Thank you for posting your recipe, it is very insightful. If your SIP has been set up properly then you are in fact correct, watering should be 100% optimal and can be ruled out as the problem. Before I type anything else though, just know that you will definitely not lose your plant because of this. You are definitely going to get some good quality smoke, but your yields are likely to suffer unfortunately.

That being said, you have a lot more amendments in your soil than you need and it is pointing to excess K/Ca levels which appear to be locking out your Mg and P to a lesser extent. A handful of the ingredients in that soil mix are quite redundant unfortunately.

Your Crab Meal, OSF, and gypsum are all quite heavy in Calcium and that is likely causing your Mg lock out. On top of that, 1 1/3c Langbeinite is definitely overkill. Furthermore, the Dolomite Lime is pure Cal/Mg in a soil mix that already appears to be saturated with both. On top of that, you actually don't need Dolomite Lime if you use OSF because OSF has similar buffering power to Dolomite Lime. DL isn't bad by itself, but combine it with the Crab Meal, OSF, and gypsum and you'll lock out Mg for sure.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but at this point there really isn't much you can do but wait until you put new clones in. The term "cooking" soil is interesting to me, because it really is like cooking. When cooking, less is more. You can always add more salt to a meal, but you can not take salt out if you use too much. The same holds true for organic soil.

My advice for the short run if I were in your shoes, I'd simply stop feeding Cal/Mg+Lime and also make sure you don't add any more K to the mix either. I do, however recommend foliar feeding with Epsom Salts 100% at this point. I personally use between 1-2 tbsp per gallon of water if I find myself in this bind, and foliar feed is the most optimal way for the plants to absorb the epsom salts. Top dressing/watering it in is ineffective, as in this case the leaves actually absorb the epsom much more efficiently. Don't get too freaked out when you start seeing whitish spots/blotches on your leaves after a day or so, just what happens when the foliar dries up and is just residue from the salts.

As for my advice for the long term, look into Clackamas Coots soil mix. I've used it with great success, 1:1:1 ratio of peat/compost/aeration and only 1/2c Crab/Kelp/Neem meal per 1 cuft soil. Minerals would be 4c mineral mixture per 1 cuft soil, the 4c mineral mix should consist of 2.5c Basalt, .5c gypsum, and 1c OSF. Those handful of ingredients give your plant all they need. A note on P though, which will explain why you should remove Fish Meal from your mix. Too much P actually hinders the growth of microbes and will cause more harm than good. If for some reason you find yourself in need of more P, grab yourself a bottle of Fish Hydrolysate instead.

Simplicity works best here my friend. Always remember, less is more. You can always top dress more often, but you're SOL if you use too much and just have to let things ride. The issues you are having are quite minor in the grand scheme of things and are easily fixable. Research what I've just said on your own and draw your own conclusions, fact check me as I'm just some random guy on the internet :p

Hope this helped, and wish you all the best. Don't fret too much, your yields just aren't going to be what they should be but they'll still be more than decent and the smoke will be wonderful.
in just wanted to clarify the recipie I posted is made to 5-6 cu.ft. not for a single cu.ft. are u still still saying 1 1/3 cup is too much???
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I agree

I agree for the most part. pH issue, most likely due to watering habits. Over water.

Under watering can create problems as well. Peat is the worst for it. The soil dries and becomes hydrophobic. It won't absorb water. I've had it happen on an outdoor plant. Center of the root ball dried and would not take water.

A drop of dish soap will help break water tesnion if it does become hydrophobic.

A good draining soil can be watered frequently and not cause harm.
Peat is the absolute biggest culprit for this for sure. Watering from underneath the pot via wicking action is the only way I've been able to help with dry spots, once you let peat get hydrophobic top watering becomes an absolute nightmare. If I'm in geopots, I lightly water from the top and then saturate the bottoms of the pots.


I agree with CS,these are a couple of really great and informative posts.overwatering has been my biggest headache since moving indoors from outdoor(never had overwatering issues outdoors) the problem seems to sneak up on me from out of nowhere too.I'll be watering the same amount,things will be looking great, then overnight problems show up.the only way I've personally been able to correct this is by up-potting.shit goes downhill fast once overwatered.
It's a lot easier to over-water than one would think, especially when you're indoors. People often forget to take humidity into account, with proper humidity levels plants will drink less water. My RH% is one of the ways I gauge when it's time to water. If my pot is dry and my humidity drops below 30% it's usually time to water.

As stated before, it's very easy to love your plants to death. Fact is that plants have been growing for millennia without human intervention, and with much better success for the most part. I've had plants in 122 degree weather when my AC crapped out on me. I didn't notice for a good 5-6 hours. They were droopy as fuck, but they eventually recovered. Fortunately I was in veg, otherwise I'd have been fucked.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
The thing is that I 'm not sure if it really is an auto, I heard about other people having the same problem as me not flowering til 7/8 weeks, but they would flower by changing the light schedule for 12-12..towards the over watering you r wrong, if something I m letting them dry till the max i can, sometimes i even push too much...of course I check the weight of the pot before watering, n something I really careful about is to stop watering when it starts going out the I don't let water accumulate...nevertheless, it could be what you said but is not n another detail I checked the ph of the soil when i flushed it was 6.2...but towards the N deficiency you might be right because I started giving flowering nutes to stimulate the plant for flower, so it's being a while since t didn't receive nitrogen..so what would be your advice for that?
What kind of medium are you growing in? Looks like soil? What kind of soil? And are you following the AN schedule to an exact T? That could be your problem. Most pre-mixed soils have enough nutrients in them to last 1-2 months before they're depleted and if you're not cutting the recommended nutrient amounts down to 1/4 the amount then you are over-fertilizing. This is evidenced by the burnt tips and the curling/damaged leaves.

What I'm seeing looks like either over-watering, or nutrient toxicity. If you're using the full recommended dosage of nutrients in a soil medium that already has nutrients in it then you are likely burning them. Lay off the nutes for a week or two.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
Definitely. Cannabis does not need that much K and you have plenty of other amendments that provide a sufficient amount. Excess K causes lock out.
would u drop any of my amendments completely?

I have already stopped using oyster shell (bc of the DL) I also gave up bio live, and im using crab shells rather than the crab meal. it has 0 k.51Twhl+xUNL._SL500_AC_SS350_.jpg
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
here's the recipe again so u don't haveto go back...View attachment 4238583
For the organic amendments, I'd get rid of the Fish Bone for sure. Everything else is okay, it's all nice and light. Just be careful of the alfalfa, it can cause burn if you aren't careful because it decomposes at a shockingly quick rate.

For the mineral amendments, you don't need Azomite because everything else provides what Azomite does. Forego the Langbeinite too and the lime. DE is okay, just make sure you never top dress with it and mix it in thoroughly because it can and will clump up on you and that'll cause issues. Greensand is okay, but just know that it takes a good couple years before you start seeing results from it because it takes a while to break down. Remove some of the gypsum and replace it with Basalt, Basalt is amazing. Instead of 2c Basalt, 1 1/3c Gypsum, and 1c (I think? Can't tell what that is) OSF I would go with 3c Basalt, 1c OSF, and 1/3c Gypsum. You could even eliminate the gypsum entirely if you really wanted to and just use more OSF, they both provide calcium. The difference is OSF is a buffer, which is always helpful.

HTH
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
For the organic amendments, I'd get rid of the Fish Bone for sure. Everything else is okay, it's all nice and light. Just be careful of the alfalfa, it can cause burn if you aren't careful because it decomposes at a shockingly quick rate.

For the mineral amendments, you don't need Azomite because everything else provides what Azomite does. Forego the Langbeinite too and the lime. DE is okay, just make sure you never top dress with it and mix it in thoroughly because it can and will clump up on you and that'll cause issues. Greensand is okay, but just know that it takes a good couple years before you start seeing results from it because it takes a while to break down. Remove some of the gypsum and replace it with Basalt, Basalt is amazing. Instead of 2c Basalt, 1 1/3c Gypsum, and 1c (I think? Can't tell what that is) OSF I would go with 3c Basalt, 1c OSF, and 1/3c Gypsum. You could even eliminate the gypsum entirely if you really wanted to and just use more OSF, they both provide calcium. The difference is OSF is a buffer, which is always helpful.

HTH
well unfortunately I can't get rid of the dolomite lime, from what I've been able to learn, it's a must for my sip w/probiotics. so considering that would u still use the osf?
 

CikaBika

Well-Known Member
thank you to the sky @kratos015 , I'm not new grower but my stoner brain went backward in my growing skills and knowledge,plus I'm back to regular pots vs air pots that I used until now, and even fabric pots..You gave me much things to think about..I water my autos in 10l pots (4 in fullflower,one in veg,and one in begining of flower) and I water them from 12,l bucket,so we can say its about 11l water they get...I water them ever 3 or four days, some pots are lighter some arent,but first two three inch of soil are always dry. And I made f up of not giving them pure water in first four weeks of flowering, I just fed them everytime .. So I think I made few mistakes..
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
thank you to the sky @kratos015 , I'm not new grower but my stoner brain went backward in my growing skills and knowledge,plus I'm back to regular pots vs air pots that I used until now, and even fabric pots..You gave me much things to think about..I water my autos in 10l pots (4 in fullflower,one in veg,and one in begining of flower) and I water them from 12,l bucket,so we can say its about 11l water they get...I water them ever 3 or four days, some pots are lighter some arent,but first two three inch of soil are always dry. And I made f up of not giving them pure water in first four weeks of flowering, I just fed them everytime .. So I think I made few mistakes..
Of course, glad I could be of service. It sounds like you're watering as well as you can though from what I'm reading. For what it's worth, no one is capable of watering "perfectly" unless they're using BluMats or SIP. But by using the lift test and taking the "less is more" approach, we can get somewhat close to what SIP/BluMats provide.

All that being said, it does sound like the issues you're experiencing are also over-fertilizing. You typically want to use 1/4th of the recommended dose on any fertilizer, this way you can take note of the plant's reaction and act accordingly. No two plants will be the same.

The point of time in flower that your plants will need nutes the most will be weeks 5 and 6, then taper things back down at week 7, then simply water from week 8-9.

Mistakes happen though, and they are the only way that we can truly refine our craft. I have never grown the same strain twice, and that's been a bit of a fuck up on my part because that means I can never get things to 100%. The best weed comes from people that have grown the same strain over multiple cycles and know every single last thing about it.

The owner of a dispensary I used to work at has a story about the guy that taught him. Apparently he went through over 100 seeds to find the perfect Cat Piss plant, after a couple years he got an amazing ass pheno and made it into a mother. Over the next 4-5 years he experimented on dozens of clones from said pheno, documenting the results of various tests he would conduct on them. The result was that this guy knew the exact amount of nutes to use for every single week, right down to the exact ppm for every nutrient on each different week. The end result, from what I hear was absolute perfection.

Take every mistake as a learning experience. I like getting note books to write things down about various strains I grow, grow journals are also super helpful because you can go back and review things. Always room for improvement my man. I yielded just shy of 1lb from 2000w of light on my first indoor :P


well unfortunately I can't get rid of the dolomite lime, from what I've been able to learn, it's a must for my sip w/probiotics. so considering that would u still use the osf?
That's something new to me that, what role does the lime play in SIP? Do you mix it in with the perlite or something? I'm honestly not sure about that one so unfortunately I probably won't be able to give the most sound advice here. I thought you were using the lime as a pH buffer and that's why I recommended OSF in it's place. If I knew what the role of the lime in your set up is I might be able to offer some advice, but at this point I'm not qualified to answer your question sadly.
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
Yeah I’ve got some plants now that were overwatered and I should go ahead and up pot them now, even though I’m sure the roots haven’t grown much.
It’s easy to overwater when growing multiple strains with different requirements. I’ve got 3 strains going now and it’s been interesting...
Get a fan blowing over the top of the pots to help them dry quicker.
Peat is the absolute biggest culprit for this for sure. Watering from underneath the pot via wicking action is the only way I've been able to help with dry spots, once you let peat get hydrophobic top watering becomes an absolute nightmare. If I'm in geopots, I lightly water from the top and then saturate the bottoms of the pots.




It's a lot easier to over-water than one would think, especially when you're indoors. People often forget to take humidity into account, with proper humidity levels plants will drink less water. My RH% is one of the ways I gauge when it's time to water. If my pot is dry and my humidity drops below 30% it's usually time to water.

As stated before, it's very easy to love your plants to death. Fact is that plants have been growing for millennia without human intervention, and with much better success for the most part. I've had plants in 122 degree weather when my AC crapped out on me. I didn't notice for a good 5-6 hours. They were droopy as fuck, but they eventually recovered. Fortunately I was in veg, otherwise I'd have been fucked.
I usually water in stages. I water each pot 2-3 times about ten minutes apart to prevent it.

Wicking from the bottom works great. I don't with salt based nutes as it can cause salt buildup.




For anyone that has hot soil and you are still vegging just pop the plants out and remove a 1/3 to hf the soil and add unammended soil back to it to cut the strength.

Over watering will add problems to hot soil. Running on the dry side until they burn through some of it works as well.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
Of course, glad I could be of service. It sounds like you're watering as well as you can though from what I'm reading. For what it's worth, no one is capable of watering "perfectly" unless they're using BluMats or SIP. But by using the lift test and taking the "less is more" approach, we can get somewhat close to what SIP/BluMats provide.

All that being said, it does sound like the issues you're experiencing are also over-fertilizing. You typically want to use 1/4th of the recommended dose on any fertilizer, this way you can take note of the plant's reaction and act accordingly. No two plants will be the same.

The point of time in flower that your plants will need nutes the most will be weeks 5 and 6, then taper things back down at week 7, then simply water from week 8-9.

Mistakes happen though, and they are the only way that we can truly refine our craft. I have never grown the same strain twice, and that's been a bit of a fuck up on my part because that means I can never get things to 100%. The best weed comes from people that have grown the same strain over multiple cycles and know every single last thing about it.

The owner of a dispensary I used to work at has a story about the guy that taught him. Apparently he went through over 100 seeds to find the perfect Cat Piss plant, after a couple years he got an amazing ass pheno and made it into a mother. Over the next 4-5 years he experimented on dozens of clones from said pheno, documenting the results of various tests he would conduct on them. The result was that this guy knew the exact amount of nutes to use for every single week, right down to the exact ppm for every nutrient on each different week. The end result, from what I hear was absolute perfection.

Take every mistake as a learning experience. I like getting note books to write things down about various strains I grow, grow journals are also super helpful because you can go back and review things. Always room for improvement my man. I yielded just shy of 1lb from 2000w of light on my first indoor :P




That's something new to me that, what role does the lime play in SIP? Do you mix it in with the perlite or something? I'm honestly not sure about that one so unfortunately I probably won't be able to give the most sound advice here. I thought you were using the lime as a pH buffer and that's why I recommended OSF in it's place. If I knew what the role of the lime in your set up is I might be able to offer some advice, but at this point I'm not qualified to answer your question sadly.
as far as I know, that is what's it's used for is ph, bc once the sip is running and a plant is in, I never touch the soil again, but there isn't a lot of info on this, check out Allan adkisson, that's where I learned about it.

I've also made two threads that I've been experimenting with it and writing down my experience over the last year! ill post the links maybe u would like it and be able to help me perfect it! You are way more knowledgeable than I am, and your expertise would truly be helpful, besides u may like it, I know for a fact my girls grow twice as big and twice as fast! it still won't beat hydro in growth rate, but it blows away the normal living soil in smart pots! either way thank you for your help, advise and time, I appreciate that thank you:bigjoint:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/green-point-seeds-gu-jelly-pie.961604/

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greens-gorilla-glue-4.979073/
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
For anyone that has hot soil and you are still vegging just pop the plants out and remove a 1/3 to hf the soil and add unammended soil back to it to cut the strength.
.
may sounds stupid, but I really never thought of that, I've always cut it with some roots organic or something, never crossed my mind to just use the used soil I already have! thanks
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
may sounds stupid, but I really never thought of that, I've always cut it with some roots organic or something, never crossed my mind to just use the used soil I already have! thanks
No problem.

I have a suspicion it's just watering habits.

I've had similar problems before and documented it in one of my grow threads. One time it was a bad bale of peat base. I buy a brand similar to promix with no nutes. I get them in compacted 4 cubic ft bales. I bought four bales and one of them just wasn't right. The directions say to water to let it expand then let the pH settle. I did all that and added my normal organic amendments. Got a few weeks into veg and they got yellow and wierd looking like yours. Nothing I did worked. I eventually figured out it was the peat base and mixed some new soil up. I dug the plants up and removed the soil from the roots. Trimmed the growth back a bit. Then put in new soil.

I threw the old bale into my compost pile and mixed it in.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
No problem.

I have a suspicion it's just watering habits.

I've had similar problems before and documented it in one of my grow threads. One time it was a bad bale of peat base. I buy a brand similar to promix with no nutes. I get them in compacted 4 cubic ft bales. I bought four bales and one of them just wasn't right. The directions say to water to let it expand then let the pH settle. I did all that and added my normal organic amendments. Got a few weeks into veg and they got yellow and wierd looking like yours. Nothing I did worked. I eventually figured out it was the peat base and mixed some new soil up. I dug the plants up and removed the soil from the roots. Trimmed the growth back a bit. Then put in new soil.

I threw the old bale into my compost pile and mixed it in.
I really don't think my problem has to do with watering, only bc it's a sip pot, and almost impossible to screw that up! I also let the rez run almost dry before topping off!

I've always had problems with watering too much or not enough, that's part of the reason these sips were so appealing to me, once I saw the growth and we'll the experiments did I was sold, and made some improvements on it! one day I'll have nothing but sips!
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
I really don't think my problem has to do with watering, only bc it's a sip pot, and almost impossible to screw that up! I also let the rez run almost dry before topping off!

I've always had problems with watering too much or not enough, that's part of the reason these sips were so appealing to me, once I saw the growth and we'll the experiments did I was sold, and made some improvements on it! one day I'll have nothing but sips!
Sips can have problems. Not as often but it happens.

I said to keep them on the dry side but you may not want to let the res dry out. May be part of the issue.

Do a slurry test. Mix equal parts soil to deionized water and mix. Test the pH of the slurry to figure the pH of the soil.

May just be lockout from all the amendments. If need be remove the plants and some soil and cut it to lessen strength. It won't hurt the plants if you are gentle.

The other option is just to let them grow. Trim them back once or twice and let them burn through some of the amendments.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
Sips can have problems. Not as often but it happens.

I said to keep them on the dry side but you may not want to let the res dry out. May be part of the issue.

Do a slurry test. Mix equal parts soil to deionized water and mix. Test the pH of the slurry to figure the pH of the soil.

May just be lockout from all the amendments. If need be remove the plants and some soil and cut it to lessen strength. It won't hurt the plants if you are gentle.

The other option is just to let them grow. Trim them back once or twice and let them burn through some of the amendments.
what cheap way would u recommend for testing ph, I'm not spending the cash on meter.
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
what cheap way would u recommend for testing ph, I'm not spending the cash on meter.
The most accurate for organic soil is the kit with the color chart and capsules.
You take soil from 3 different spots and make a slurry with distilled water. Filter out the solids, add the capsule of magic powder, then match the color to get PH.
---
https://www.walmart.com/ip/TEST-PH-KIT-FOR-SOIL/23624591?wmlspartner=wmtlabs&adid=22222222222017198633&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10356955041&wl4=pla-1103079595143:aud-807612879&wl12=23624591_10000000871&wl14=soil ph test kit &veh=sem&msclkid=db7da7ef983919cd63fffc14f61756ed
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
The most accurate for organic soil is the kit with the color chart and capsules.
You take soil from 3 different spots and make a slurry with distilled water. Filter out the solids, add the capsule of magic powder, then match the color to get PH.
---
https://www.walmart.com/ip/TEST-PH-KIT-FOR-SOIL/23624591?wmlspartner=wmtlabs&adid=22222222222017198633&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10356955041&wl4=pla-1103079595143:aud-807612879&wl12=23624591_10000000871&wl14=soil ph test kit &veh=sem&msclkid=db7da7ef983919cd63fffc14f61756ed
thank you I'll get one just to see!
 
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