Good ole' trial & error... On the error side again; What went wrong with this soil batch?

[Ecompost]

I thought he grew indoors, where the environment CAN be controlled.

I thought his test was for outdoor plots....?
yes "can" but how many people are really doing this? You need lots of equipment to control the environment totally. And its a little ironic to be calling ones self organic and or worrying about a Mn salt and then using shit loads of fossil fuel based energy to "control" the environment no?

 

[dubekoms]

I thought his test was for outdoor plots....?
yes "can" but how many people are really doing this? You need lots of equipment to control the environment totally. And its a little ironic to be calling ones self organic and or worrying about a Mn salt and then using shit loads of fossil fuel based energy to "control" the environment no?

Not sure tbh but I swear I saw a pic or two of some indoor plants from him.

Imo environmental conditions are just as important as the soil, water, nutrients you apply to the plants when growing indoors. You can't expect to grow plants perfectly happy indoors without having some sort of handle on your temps and rh. I run a window ac in summer and dehumidifier in winter and get the environmental aspects of the grow pretty damn close to what I want without to much trouble.

I actually feel organics uses a ton of fossil fuels if your buying all your shit online like I see a lot of new organic growers doing. Buying pounds and pounds of amendments, compost, rock dust ect. All that has to be shipped ya know and that shit adds up to a lot of weight. I can buy a couple pounds of dry synthetic nutes some coco or promix and run that and grow perfectly happy plants for a very long time.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I can buy a couple pounds of dry synthetic nutes some coco or promix and run that and grow perfectly happy plants for a very long time.

I don't understand why you are in the organic section at all!?! I will never take your advice and you can keep the subpar FFOF. Really, if that stuff was the miracle that you claim that it is, everyone would be using it and not spending time in the organic section of RIU. The funny part is I don't see any fully finished flowers from your FFOF grows, because that is when it takes a shit on you! Everything looks great until week 4 of flower. I can do that on my own!

 

[MustangStudFarm]

pH swings are tied to extremes of weather as well as they are over handed growers.

The harvest that we are talking about was actually from Febuary, but I agree that weather extremes had an affect. It was very cold last winter, but I also didn't understand what I was doing at the time either. I spent the time to build a well insulated 6'x24' section in my garage but I didn't run a heater last year. It would have been a easy fix.

Anyways, I think that low Mn and Zn are a reoccurring problem for me and it don't matter if I made the compost myself, bought compost, bought bag soil, or make a low P mix w/o compost. I always come back low in trace minerals.
I have a few more of these tests that I didn't take pics of. These are Mehlich 3 tests and they will not account for nutrient lock-out, such as high phosphorus locking out micros. That is why I don't like the Mehlich 3, its hard to understand what is going on.


Then, I witched testing services to a company that did test for nutrient lock-out and my problem was plain as day.
2yr old rabbit manure/oak leaf compost... This was my main source of compost for a long time and I still have rabbits, but I think that basalt and GRD are going in next time. Also, I have been feeding the rabbits a wider variety of food. They like things that I didn't think that they would like bananas, apples, and bread... The P is 15x too high!




60% peat and 40% perlite. I didn't have compost at the time.
Oyster shell flour
dolomite lime
I was running low on basalt and glacial rock dust

I used a LOT of kelp
easy on the fish meal
generous amount of alfalfa
neem/karanja meal
barley ^ ^ ^ ^

This is the recipe that I am currently following but I substituted crustacean meal for fish meal and I used Mn and Zn sulfate. I have been waiting on the latest test results and they should be here any day. I'm not going to plant until I feel like I have this under control. I've used Fertilome's "Fe and Micro" for a soil drench(foliar 1x) and then I mixed Mn and Zn sulfate for a couple more foliar sprays. I'm sorry, but nobody is going to convince me that I am on the right path right now.


This was compost from a landscaping store. I bought a whole trailer load and it wasn't any better than my own.

 

[Kushash]

I don't understand why you are in the organic section at all!?! I will never take your advice and you can keep the subpar FFOF. Really, if that stuff was the miracle that you claim that it is, everyone would be using it and not spending time in the organic section of RIU. The funny part is I don't see any fully finished flowers from your FFOF grows, because that is when it takes a shit on you! Everything looks great until week 4 of flower. I can do that on my own!

LOL!
I'm the one that brought up FFOF.
I told you I have a thousand pics if you wanted or needed more. LMAO!
I could show you other members FFOF grown bud that are as good as anything on RIU.
I could continue drumming up more of my pictures also. Those weren't my best pics. I didn't think I needed them to prove a point.
You sure do attack most of the people trying to help you. Do you realize that?
I wonder what tone is needed to get through to you.
Maybe it's not possible and I like others will give up and move on.
I would have liked to help you finally grow some decent bud after 2 years of struggling.
I know what your problem is.
It's the same problem you had two years ago.
Aeration was only part of your problem two years ago.
Another problem you had two years ago is obviously still not resolved.
I know it and so do the old time farmers who know more than I do.
To bad. I think your pride and stubbornness is going to cost you what could have been a good harvest by the new year.
Go ahead and say what you want. Build a perfect soil. When you run into problems again in mid flower, I'll have healed from the butt hurt I expect to receive then maybe we will chat about the real problem some day.

Good Luck!
​

 

[dubekoms]

I don't understand why you are in the organic section at all!?! I will never take your advice and you can keep the subpar FFOF. Really, if that stuff was the miracle that you claim that it is, everyone would be using it and not spending time in the organic section of RIU. The funny part is I don't see any fully finished flowers from your FFOF grows, because that is when it takes a shit on you! Everything looks great until week 4 of flower. I can do that on my own!

I wasn't giving you advice, I only mentioned that I thought you were growing indoors.

 

[Kushash]

No way does his attitude change anytime soon so I played my part trying.
I know we are done here. At least I am for now.
Maybe one of the vets on RIU who grow perfect plants can help.

Thought I'd get him to ask what his real problem is.
He only gets along with anyone that wants to talk about making soil.
I have plants right now that are in soil that I have re amended 6 times with dry organic inputs and have healthy plants.

It's more than likely poor watering skills causing soil PH problems.
This is followed by poor fertilizer choices to correct the problem while the poor soil ph problem remains.


I could probably find pics that look like his plants because I have done it myself and recorded both good and bad pics of my grows.
If I show bad pics I won't here about the similarities. I'll be told I'm a horrible grower who should never be listened too.
I'll join some good people on that list lol.
Here's one more pic. I probably need to find one a bit further along for it to be worthy lol, I'd smoke it.
I'm going to direct my energy elsewhere.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Nice offer but I think its not required anyway, his problem is a sincere lack of soil Mn, this has nothing to do with being dialed in, and everything to do with an element not being there in sufficient quantity in his system, probably as a consequence of environmental stress he cant control.
No one is gonna tell him more than he already knows I think. He is already doing whats needed to address the situation.
The facts as I read it where that he tried to address the shortfall using various recommended material inputs. Because he is a well practiced grower, he gave these solutions time to prove themselves or not.
Having tried lots of options, he has settled on whats needed, this he has explained.

For people familiar with blistering temps, long hard drought, extremely dry RH%, and the variance of soil tests, his posts will be recognizable to many i have no doubt

Don't get me wrong, I live in Oklahoma and it is pretty much a desert climate! I always pay attention when people mention outdoor grows because I will get there after the laws change around here. I appreciate the comments!

 

[Crab Pot]

Wow dude really... Take a look at that fried leaf tip on that ugly ass immature bud. Also that fried leaf in the lower right corner... ouch!! A little strange that you posted that pic!?! Let’s see a pic with a little more plant showing. Just took this pic of my Platinum Buffalo cut as an example, you can actually get an idea of the plants health. I’m hoping to learn how to best test my soil. This Fox Farms talk is just a distraction.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I’m hoping to learn how to best test my soil.

I listened to the interviews on KIS Organic's podcasts and they were helpful. I think that podcast#17 is the one where they are talking about the Soil Savvy test and how it is different from a saturated pasted test. The guy from the Soil Savvy test sounds like the scientist from The Simpsons and it's kind of hard to follow, but there is great info. I think that that main idea of the podcast is that the Mehlich 3 test is a chemical extraction and it will give you the total amount of nutrients. The saturated paste is paste extraction and it will show what is soluble. The Soil Savvy test is a gel extraction and it is supposed to be more accurate than the saturated paste extraction at showing what is available and it accounts for nutrient lock-out.

Your looking pretty good to be honest!

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Logan Labs is popular and they are a little more user friendly than Spectrum Analytic. Make sure that you tell them that you want a weighted scoop for a soiless medium. They will weight the scoop ONLY if you ask them to, it tripped me up for a while. It's $25 for a Mehlich 3 and another $25 for Saturated paste.
http://www.loganlabs.com/soilless-media.html

Soil Savvy is $30 but it comes with pre-paid postage and lab fees. They send a kit and you fill their container that has their gel and it sits in the gel for 5 days before they test it. They say that it is much more accurate than a Saturated Paste test, but you should get the Mehlich 3 and Soil Savvy for a complete picture. I've been winging it with only the soil savvy lately, but I am about to start getting the Mehlich 3(Logan Labs) & Soil Savvy.
https://unibestinc.com/products/#soilsavvy

Soil Savvy Gel. They have a patent on this stuff.

 

[Kushash]

If an OP ever wants me to leave a thread I always respect that.
Sorry I misdirected the conversation @NewGrower2011.

I'm out!

Edit:
Need to add.
@Crab Pot
I was putting myself out there to help someone who is difficult to deal with and needs help.
You stumble in with a bullshit comment because you want to redirect the conversation to help yourself.
Fuck Off!

Now I'm out!
You can have the last word looser!

Boy I sure am insecure with this tough crowd about my pictures now.
They are extremely nice Indica plants you have there.
Would love to see some of your 11 week strains.
I love growing indica, so easy isn't it.
I guess I need to go back to growing them. At least for pictures to impress the crowd.
Especially if I'm going to sell seeds lol.


Anyway, I enjoyed what I did above for Mustang and appreciate him not going after me for what I said.
I'm done with that.
Maybe something will click later.
Took me years to dial in my watering, very common for growers to have to hit the reset. Even long time growers.

I'm not sure what to show.
Maybe something dark, something crispy and of course something with more than 5 blade leaves.
I would never embarrass myself by trying to impress this crowd with 5 blade 7 week strains lol.
Three pics for the road.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Anyway, I enjoyed what I did above for Mustang and appreciate him not going after me for what I said.
I'm done with that.

I still don't understand what it was that you were trying to sell me, FFOF??? I've been there and done that man, my compost was better but neither one was perfect! If you ever hit that 1G/Watt, you will not settle for mediocre harvests anymore. Not only does the bud weight more but it will have more fragrance and punch. Maybe you never experienced it before? I got lucky and did it with compost, but my dumb ass put rock phosphate in it and ruined everything!

I bet that I have tried a wider variety of bag soil than you have. None of it is going to get you 1G/watt

 

[Kushash]

I still don't understand what it was that you were trying to sell me, FFOF??? I've been there and done that man, my compost was better but neither one was perfect! If you ever hit that 1G/Watt, you will not settle for mediocre harvests anymore. Not only does the bud weight more but it will have more fragrance and punch. Maybe you never experienced it before? I got lucky and did it with compost, but my dumb ass put rock phosphate in it and ruined everything!

I bet that I have tried a wider variety of bag soil than you have. None of it is going to get you 1G/watt

Thanks for the responce.
I'd like it if you guys got back to talking about soil and I'll just read along and learn.
Crab Pot just got me annoyed for a minute.

I love using a variety of aeration inputs. They are like hotels for microbes to me.
Just added Bio Char and Pumice to my latest mix that was re amended 6 times or more, I lost track.
Vermiculite. Perlite, Hell I even love some wood chips.

I really need to build a fresh mix from scratch and do a side by side.
I have many of the dry amendments and a variety of balanced fertilizers.

Haven't used any bottles in a while except for seaweed extract and fish emulsion. GO cal/mag+ is on hand but hasn't been needed.

We all do things different.

I like experimenting with no-till 3 gallon and I have a no-till 18 oz solo cups growing right now. Its been flowering for about 8 weeks and is close to finished.

I also started with 5 seeds and harvested 5 plants in the recent solo cup comp and chose one to grow a seed in.
Just cut out the top and added castings, DTE Bio Live, kelp meal, a pinch of gypsum and a pinch of lime on top.
I have pics of all that but I'm done with pics, to depressing lol.
Had to go look at my pics wondering if my 16 week haze strains are good looking or fugly. I'm to embarrassed to show them.

Wanna try something hard. Try flowering a clone in 4 OZ of stagnant water lol.

I watered a seedling in a 5 gallon pot 6 times by mid flower and had some nice solid buds on a 4 1/2 foot sativa leaning plant and documented it by weighing the plant every day during the grow to see how far I could push it.
Pushing the limits on the dry side teaches a lot about the plant.
If you haven't tried it give it a try sometimes with a couple of plants.
Good Luck!

​

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Crab Pot just got me annoyed for a minute.

I already know CrabPot from the Bodhi thread, it's a friendly thread and Bodhi heads tend to stick up for each other.

I follow Clackamas Cootz's recipe, but it is hard to get everything exactly right. I have mostly been focusing on keeping everything out of toxic levels, mostly Phosphorus and N. Either one in excess will keep your roots from producing root exudes. High Na causes problems too. On the other hand, there are elements that don't seem to affect much if they are in excess like K and S.

Here is the Clackamas Cootz recipe w/o compost. He uses 3yr old leaf compost and I think that is where most of the micros come from, so that is what I was missing on this batch. Sulfur drives the Ph down and Na is just bad in the soil. Same one that I have been showing.



This time, I flushed the soil after I mixed it and let it sit for 6-7 weeks before I tested it. My base saturation ratios are off on this one. Mg-Ca-K ratio. Right now, I have high Mg and Ca but after I add more K the other two will be less available. This just proves to me that dolomite lime is useless if you also need micros!
I am going to be rocking the basalt and glacial rock dust along with kelp from now on. Keep in mind, this is a solubility test and it ONLY shows how elements react with each other. Like the low micros might just be from high Ph. The high Ca and Mg might only be a lack of K and N. I did get the Sulfur and Sodium out of the soil this time though... I was used to dealing with high P, so adding Zn was common. I probably didn't need to use it this time.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Fe: 1.0 (target .5-2) - finally within recommendations on something
Mn: 0.6 (target 2-4) - was hoping azomite covered micros better
Zn: 0.03 (target 0.1-0.2)
Cu: 0.1 (target 0.05-0.1) - right on the high end of reccommendations
B: 0.01 (target 0.1-0.2)

You probably were not using enough Azomite. From what I have read, basalt has more of the harder elements to find like Mn and Fe. I have been warned against the Al in Azomite, but I don't know if it really is a problem.

I was listening to a podcast last night and it was specifically about micro nutrients. Around the 40min mark, they talk about Mn inputs and that there really is not a good source except for Mn sulfate and soil builders cannot add it to their soil unless they have a soil test showing that it is low. So, they can't stack Mn in bag soil. They go on to say that Mn is very important to cannabis.
https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/6-cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast

There are other episode that are def worth listening to like Clackamas Cootz and Jeff Lowenfels. Funny story, almost each episode they talk about soil testing. That is why I don't listen to people hating on soil tests! It was actually episode #17 where I found out about the Soil Savvy test...
https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-17

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Since I had rock phosphate and bone meal on hand to use for phos sources I used those. And since the N was high

Your P was perfect on the low side! High P/N will inhibit myco growth because your plant will not produce root exudes. Myco will supply the roots with plenty of P as long as it is not in toxic levels.

I thought the Soil Savvy might have been aiming to fit that need, but it sounds from this debate like it's just another variant of a test that doesn't give the mere mortals our simple answers.

I don't think that there are ever simple answers. Come to find out, I probably need to start getting a Mehlich 3 test to go with the Soil Savvy test. Mehlich 3 will show you exactly what is in the soil and Soil Savvy(replaces paste extraction) will show what is soluble. You will look at the Mehlich 3 to see what is in your soil and the Soil Savvy to see how everything reacts together.

Jeff Lowenfels has a book "Teaming with Nutrients" and he has a chapter covering nutrient lock-out and he said that it was the hardest chapter of any book that he wrote. He claims that the book can be boring to read, but it is very important. It has a lot of chemistry terms in it.

For your high Ca and Mg, I would just add more peat because it will get used up. High K is not a problem and on that podcast, they say that K should be about 2x normal levels for cannabis. Ca, Mg, and K are considered your base saturation and they need to be in the right ratio to keep from locking each other out.

This is from Specturm Analytic and they are the company that the professionals use, Logan Labs is known to be newb friendly. They have some very helpful articles and if you look up elements, it will tell you how they react with each other. Very helpful!
https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/article_list

 

[Ecompost]

Not sure tbh but I swear I saw a pic or two of some indoor plants from him.

Imo environmental conditions are just as important as the soil, water, nutrients you apply to the plants when growing indoors. You can't expect to grow plants perfectly happy indoors without having some sort of handle on your temps and rh. I run a window ac in summer and dehumidifier in winter and get the environmental aspects of the grow pretty damn close to what I want without to much trouble.

I actually feel organics uses a ton of fossil fuels if your buying all your shit online like I see a lot of new organic growers doing. Buying pounds and pounds of amendments, compost, rock dust ect. All that has to be shipped ya know and that shit adds up to a lot of weight. I can buy a couple pounds of dry synthetic nutes some coco or promix and run that and grow perfectly happy plants for a very long time.

I wouldn't play transport waste over the sheer amount of energy required to make synthetics mate. You will lose that argument in a heart beat. Its not like they dont ship synthetics.

I am not one for worrying about N and or if its Organic or not, But may be the future is renewable energy and using some ag land to produce on site N salts as required and so cutting down the energy waste and transport requirements of N.

For me its not about that, it is about regenerative farming. If you aint building soil, you are a loser in my world and you should be re programmed not to take the piss out of the unborn future so you live fat today.

 

[Ecompost]

LOL!
I'm the one that brought up FFOF.
I told you I have a thousand pics if you wanted or needed more. LMAO!
I could show you other members FFOF grown bud that are as good as anything on RIU.
I could continue drumming up more of my pictures also. Those weren't my best pics. I didn't think I needed them to prove a point.
You sure do attack most of the people trying to help you. Do you realize that?
I wonder what tone is needed to get through to you.
Maybe it's not possible and I like others will give up and move on.
I would have liked to help you finally grow some decent bud after 2 years of struggling.
I know what your problem is.
It's the same problem you had two years ago.
Aeration was only part of your problem two years ago.
Another problem you had two years ago is obviously still not resolved.
I know it and so do the old time farmers who know more than I do.
To bad. I think your pride and stubbornness is going to cost you what could have been a good harvest by the new year.
Go ahead and say what you want. Build a perfect soil. When you run into problems again in mid flower, I'll have healed from the butt hurt I expect to receive then maybe we will chat about the real problem some day.

Good Luck!
​

perhaps you need to admit that some people take longer than you to get a handle on things? not every one can be as perfect as you

 

[Ecompost]

Wow dude really... Take a look at that fried leaf tip on that ugly ass immature bud. Also that fried leaf in the lower right corner... ouch!! A little strange that you posted that pic!?! Let’s see a pic with a little more plant showing. Just took this pic of my Platinum Buffalo cut as an example, you can actually get an idea of the plants health. I’m hoping to learn how to best test my soil. This Fox Farms talk is just a distraction.


View attachment 4185328

LOL, I just got here and can see its already like the democrats versus the republicans.

Nice plant that too

BTW, if anyone wonders where my "L" is at times, it fell of my keyboard and I have to near punch it now to get it to work