Conflating legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism is dangerous

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
He's an Intolerant Liberal with an awful disease; Toxic Schlock.

He’s just a narc now. And posting on a weed site against growers. He even stupidly threatened to call the feds on my wife for our legal medical grow.

He is really dumb. I think the sponsor is going to fire him. What kind of weed growing site uses a fake news intolerant liberal website as their money?

Isnt the owner a grower at least?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
He initiated me into this childish game. Now he has crossed all lines of decency. I tried to stop it multiple times for over a year now.


He has gone out of his way to ruin this forum for me. Blame the cause.

Of course I don’t care. This is a forum that promotes fake news for a silly political website with all propoganda as headlines.

But he cares. He gets paid for it.

You know he is banned from every other weed site? He should be.
Its not your fault baby
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
He initiated me into this childish game. Now he has crossed all lines of decency. I tried to stop it multiple times for over a year now.


He has gone out of his way to ruin this forum for me. Blame the cause.

Of course I don’t care. This is a forum that promotes fake news for a silly political website with all propoganda as headlines.

But he cares. He gets paid for it.

You know he is banned from every other weed site? He should be.
You are absolutely right.

Not your fault (snicker)
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Your Jew hate threads turn into a haven for Jew haters
You're a sick human being.

Toxic Schlock.

The article shows that civilised people reject your semitic hatreds.

Who you have become is indefensible, which is why you always change the subject to attacking others.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
You're a sick human being.

Toxic Schlock.

The article shows that civilised people reject your semitic hatreds.

Who you have become is indefensible, which is why you always change the subject to attacking others.
Oooooh, civilized eh?

Haven’t heard the white power crowd using that dog whistle
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Oooooh, civilized eh?

Haven’t heard the white power crowd using that dog whistle
When we're talking about the official stance of Britain's Labour Party, I rather doubt that 'white power dog whistle' applies.

But once again you're trying desperately to change the subject.

Toxic Schlock
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
So what's your excuse? You've been making personal attacks all afternoon
Nope. Never once have I attacked you.

I did say it isn't too late for you to turn yourself around and make yourself available to your daughter. If you think that's an attack then it's on you not me.

It really isn't too late, tty.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Nope. Never once have I attacked you.

I did say it isn't too late for you to turn yourself around and make yourself available to your daughter. If you think that's an attack then it's on you not me.

It really isn't too late, tty.
What does this have to do with the thread topic, other than you can't make a considered argument?
 

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/12/labour-antisemitism-code-gold-standard-political-parties

Labour’s antisemitism code is the gold standard for political parties
Jon Lansman
The new code makes clear that discrimination against Jewish people is unacceptable while allowing for legitimate criticism of Israel

Last week, the Labour party introduced a code of conduct on antisemitism, stronger than anything of its kind adopted by any political party in this country. This follows our adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s (IHRA) full definition of antisemitism in 2016 and Labour’s annual conference voting overwhelmingly last year to strengthen its rules against antisemitism and racism.

But as well as some welcoming this positive and progressive move, Labourhas come under criticism from some MPs and Jewish communal organisations for not simply reproducing the IHRA’s working examples word for word. But, far from lowering the bar for what constitutes antisemitism, this code lifts it. It requires a higher standard of behaviour than the IHRA examples do. Labour’s code should be seen as the new gold standard.

I have been vocal in talking about my experiences of antisemitism and in calling out the blindness to antisemitism and unconscious bias towards Jewish people that pervades our society and politics, including when it appears on the left. I have argued for a long time that Labour must lead the way in tackling this evil within our own party, and pressure other political parties to follow suit. That’s why I was so pleased to support this code when it was unanimously approved last week by Labour’s national executive committee, of which I’m a member.

The code fully adopts the IHRA definition, and covers the same ground as the IHRA examples, but it also provides additional examples of antisemitism while giving context and detailed explanations to ensure it can be practically applied to disciplinary cases within the party. Three of the four examples that the party has been falsely accused of omitting are explicitly discussed in the code. It states that Jewish people should not be accused of being more loyal to Israel than other countries, that Israel should not be held to higher standards than other countries, and that members should not use Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons.

The only part of the IHRA working examples that is not explicitly referenced relates to claims about the state of Israel being a racist endeavour (this is a subset of an example, not a standalone one). Of all the elements in the IHRA examples, this is the one that runs the greatest risk of prohibiting legitimate criticism of Israel. It cannot possibly be antisemitic to point out that some of the key policies of the Israeli state, observed since its founding days, have an effect that discriminates on the basis of race and ethnicity.

Labour’s code explicitly says that denying Jewish people the same right to self-determination as any other people is discriminatory and therefore antisemitic, and it makes clear that all countries should be held to the same, internationally recognised standards. This explanation and contextualisation is essential to ensuring that people are able to make legitimate criticisms of Israel, while prohibiting comments that discriminate against Jewish people, deny their right to self-determination or treat Israel differently to the universal standards that apply to all countries.

If legitimate criticism of Israel were to be curbed, that would infringe on the rights of other oppressed groups, who have suffered at the hands of discriminatory Israeli state policies. The Palestinians have experienced decades of occupation, gross human rights violations, and war crimes. The Bedouins have had their homes destroyed, the latest example being the demolition of Khan Al-Ahmar. And ethnic minorities within Israel have been treated appallingly, such as the Sudanese and Eritrean refugees who have been detained and deported, and questions over the treatment of Ethiopian women, including allegations they were given birth control without their consent.

I’ve just been in Israel, where I met with people from all different backgrounds, organisations and political persuasions. Those I met, Jewish as well as Palestinian citizens of Israel, spoke about racist state policies, not just in relation to the occupation and settlements, but also within Israel itself – the segregation of housing, education, employment, and systematic economic disadvantage. The Palestinian minority within Israel is as entitled as Jews in Britain to define the discrimination they have experienced as racism. Such criticisms cannot, and must not, be silenced.

It cannot be right that one vaguely worded subset of one IHRA example can deny other oppressed groups their right to speak about their own oppression. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t contexts in which claims about Israel being a racist endeavour are antisemitic or made with antisemitic intent. But the IHRA’s wording is not sufficiently clear. Labour’s code of conduct provides the necessary explanation to ensure that legitimate criticism of Israeli policies is not silenced, while not tolerating comments which deny Jewish people the right to self-determination or hold Israel to unfair standards not expected of other states.

I regret that for some Jewish communal organisations, the IHRA wording is so sacrosanct that it cannot be expanded and built upon, contextualised, and turned into a practical, usable document for a political party to enforce. It does beg the question whether these organisations, which claim to speak for the diverse Jewish community, do speak for the 75% of British Jews who say “the expansion of settlements on the West Bank is a major obstacle to peace”, or for the 61% who, in the same survey, backed pursuing peace with the Palestinians as one of their top three priorities for Israeli government policy, the top priority of British Jews.

I don’t think these organisations, many of which failed to come out against the Blackshirts marching through Cable Street, or those that welcomed the presidency of Donald Trump have the credibility to criticise a political party’s robust, thorough and far-reaching code of conduct. The only real difference between the IHRA examples and Labour’s code of conduct is that the latter provides clarity, context and detail, whereas the former is vague and open to interpretation.

Conflating legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism is dangerous and undermines the fight against antisemitism. Clear and detailed guidelines are essential to ensure that antisemitism isn’t tolerated, while protecting free speech on Israel’s conduct within a respectful and civil environment. This is what Labour’s code of conduct provides. We should be celebrating and replicating it.

• Jon Lansman is a member of the Labour party’s national executive committee, and a founder of Momentum
Interesting topic, I wasn't familiar with the IRHA position. I favor civil discussion,but completely free discussion. Easier for people to show their true colors with completely free speech.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Interesting topic, I wasn't familiar with the IRHA position. I favor civil discussion,but completely free discussion. Easier for people to show their true colors with completely free speech.
The guy who celebrated trumps illegitimate election alongside white supremacists likes civil discussion, guys
 
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