First timer keen for a little feed back

[cobbled]

Hi Guys,

First up massive thanks for everything I have picked up over the past few months of ready and learning. I love seeing all the different method and ways to get amazing results but sadly this can leave a noob like me swimming in eye ball deep in options. Keen to get some advice as to my progress far...



Ok first up my environment -

1.2x1.2m (4x4) tent in a room that sits at between 15c - 20 (60-70) so I have added a small heater that keeps things at 22-24c (74ish) but struggling to keep my RH below 75 (picking up a dehumidifier tomorrow). Working to get a controller so I can drop my night temp a little more than the day. As its now going into winter I have flipped my intakes to the roof to draw cold air over my LED heatsinks and then down to the filter which is on the other side of the tent at under canopy level in the hopes to hold more heat in the tent while still cooling my fixture

For the first 5 - 6 weeks from being given a few cuttings (they did not pass on any information about them at all... sucks) I had them under a 200w 4 cob (citizen CLU-1212 @ 1.4A) with 90degree glass optics but now testing out some Samsung LM561C boards. I have a PAR meter on the way and will update with proper readings as soon as it arrives as can only guess as to what my real usable light is...

They are in 2gallon smart pots with a later of hyrdroton top and bottom and 70/30 coco perlite mix between. Two pots are showing good root growth out the side, the other two not so much. Probibly should transplanted before flipping but hoping I can keep them in small pots and go for smaller and frequent watering rather than risking the move now....

I drip to runoff 1 hour after lights on and 2 hours before lights out each day with 1.2EC EasyGrow brand nuts (local grow shop house blend that worked really well in my vertical basil window farm so stuck with it.... ) and 1ml per L CalMag that I adjust to PH 5.7

The photos attached are late week 8 and about 3 days after flipping to 12/12

I got into the math of the building the DIY lights and found that the plants are now MUCH bigger than expected as I only wanted to half fill my tent (small personal medical supply only). Up till now things have always looked super lush but the past little while the new growth (close and far from the light) are going a light lime green.

I suspect lock out as have struggled to keep my runoff PH in range (they creep as high as late 6s even with 5.7 input and running to a good amount of waste). I have seen the plants eating a solid 200PPM (500 scale) each feed and was assuming the high ph was due to that so had not yet flushed.... the past few day or two I have seen the input to out put difference slow right down but have not yet swapped to the bloom formula as was planning on after today starting to mix a 50/50 mix of bloom and grow for a week or two and doing a gradual change. Dont know why, seems more fancy i guess.

From my searching my issues look to be Iron or Zinc but can anyone help me confirm this.

If this is my issue should I start with a solid flush using fresh nuts till my input is the same as my output PH and see if correcting the root zone ph first. Trying to avoid rushing into anything drastic.

Also could someone confirm my understanding of 20% to waste means that if I put 1000mL in the top and then get 200ml in my drain bucket and not 20% of the containers that the plant is in volume?

Many thanks in advance for reading my rant, fingers crossed im just a new mum and worried about my sweet little babies for nothing but keen to learn how to get back on track if I need to!

 

[JohnDee]

Hi Cobbled,
Quite a novel you wrote. I think your idea that it's lockout due to ph is premature and possibly incorrect. I think they just need more food.

And if you are just starting 12/12 you're going be facing "the stretch". My worry is that you will run out of vertical space. Never done scrog...but if memory serves...you fill up the screen holes during the stretch, not before it. But I could be wrong.

I'm going to stop there and hopefully a scrog pundit will swing by.
JD

 

[cobbled]

@JohnDee I did put all the info I could in as was guessing it would help track down my issue faster....

To be honest wished you had posted up sooner as all your advice was spot on. I lifted my calmag a little and started creeping up my feed EC and they bounced right back. I wished I had flipped sooner as now I am about week 9 in I have almost maxed out the tent. It got close but i did a heavy defoliation and rearrangement of the canopy to do the best I could with the over crowding. Deleafing and freeing up a little space down low stopped my stretch and frothing at watching things start stacking up and filling out!

Seems I was given two different strains that I still don't know what they are. One looks short, had little stretch and is maturing a little faster than the rest so guessing indica dominant. The other three shot up and are slower to fatten up but looking super sexy.

Learned heaps in this round and cant wait to get into my second as hope to have a much tidier scrog next time . I really want to also automate my watering system my current pump/timer is not very accurate.

 

[JohnDee]

Hey cobbled,
Plants look super hardy. Little trees. Glad they bounced right back. Just an opinion here...but it complicates things in many ways having multiple strains in a scrog. I know it didn't for me in Ebb and Flow. Had WW ia primary strain and some strain by bog.

Couldn't keep them all happy at the same time. Filling a screen like you're doin' also...more difficult.
JD

 

[cobbled]

Hey cobbled,
Plants look super hardy. Little trees. Glad they bounced right back. Just an opinion here...but it complicates things in many ways having multiple strains in a scrog. I know it didn't for me in Ebb and Flow. Had WW ia primary strain and some strain by bog.

Couldn't keep them all happy at the same time. Filling a screen like you're doin' also...more difficult.
JD

Agreed about keeping two different strains but I was given 4 unknown cutting that I assumed were from the same mother.... turns out I snagged a wild card! The bigger issues is I took cuttings before I worked this out so now my next batch is a unknown mixture too... I will make sure to start numbering them so I can work out whats what by round 3.

Could you expand on what you mean by my method of filling the screen being harder, always keen to learn and want the cuttings of my next batch to be better prepared for round 2

 

[JohnDee]

cobbled,
You would be better off finding a good scrog expert. I've only read and followed peoples threads. I'm always planning to do it but never quite make it! lol But am an experienced hydro guy and done ebb and flow lots. Demands similar.

But from general knowledge about plant growth...things can vary considerably. I'm talking first: nutrient needs. Pain in the neck to have to mix different strengths for radically different strains. Amount of stretch during flowering, length of time of the stretch and last but not least...possibly different harvest times.

That all argues against mixing strains. If you do...try to find strains with similar growth needs and patterns.

JD

 

[cobbled]

@JohnDee keeping two different types is a pain but as getting different genetics is not easy for my that's what I am stuck with. I still cant tell them apart until mid stretch at which point next round I will know what is what and plan to then split them in two halfs of a tent.

Thanks for the help and tips!

 

[JohnDee]

...sure thing cobbled.

I wasn't criticizing your grow. You mentioned the clone situation.

Just my opinion on what works best.

Many guys take cuttings in flowering at 21 days for their next grow. No clone Mothers, no buying clones. Too late for that?
JD

 

[cobbled]

...sure thing cobbled.

I wasn't criticizing your grow. You mentioned the clone situation.

Just my opinion on what works best.

Many guys take cuttings in flowering at 21 days for their next grow. No clone Mothers, no buying clones. Too late for that?
JD

Ah didnt take it in a bad way was more expanding on why I am taking harder road of running two different strains... The good news is I did take cuts from the first round of defoliation, most of which are now well rooted and about 300mm tall. I will number each and keep track of the cuttings off this second round so I will know what I am dealing with 3rd time round. Due to time restrictions I hope to filp this smaller cutting super soon as need to shut down by mid September so cutting it a bit late really

I also took some cutting a few weeks into flower that are revegged nicely and looking super bushy too. Love this new hobby and cant wait to enjoy the fruit of the past few months work.

I was about to start flushing the shorter lady but after lots of reading this morning I am leaning to a no flush and even considering a boiling water root flood and then 3-4 more days before the chop....

 

[JohnDee]

I was about to start flushing the shorter lady but after lots of reading this morning I am leaning to a no flush and even considering a boiling water root flood and then 3-4 more days before the chop...

That's a new one to me...hope you let us know how it works.
JD

 

[cobbled]

That's a new one to me...hope you let us know how it works.
JD

Sounds extream but user RM3 backs it up with a good amount of science so going to give it a go on one of my 3 girls that are the same. The others I will leave to grow the 3 extra days and then cut at the same time as the boiled so I can do a blind taste test and see if it ACTUALLY works.

Few older posts say it works wonders by triggering a flooding (starving the roost of o2) response that see the plants start a fermenting process while still alive and speeds the cure process.

I have taken a few smaller early nugs from the under side that were never going to fatten up and the smoke so far has been super nice in my vape so cant help but feel that flushing is a myth and smoke smoothness comes down to a proper cure. this is just my opinion and next round I will do a flushed and not flushed side by side. So far tho my reading has had me fall in the flushing a plant that has seen lower feed EC (no salt build up) is pointless because a plant when starved is just moving N from leaves to buds that you end up smoking.

 

[Kipn]

build a good scrog net im working of my scrog technique. im new to this but something that helped me and i will be doing this next run is to grow the plants big and bushy then then put up scrog net instead of putting a net up and growing plan though it. i suggest building a solid frame that i can attach netting to that and place that over the bushy plants and spread them out under it 2 weeks before flipping

 

[JohnDee]

cobbled,
My own concern with any radical new technique is: Can it fuck up and ruin things. I try to err on the side of plant safety and health. I know you're talking something done at the end of life.
anyway...

So you're doing a little side-by-side test...cool.

The flush thing seems to be a hotbutton issue. Pretty much to each his own.

I flush in hydro using flawless finish...Just the last week per instructions.

Gotta say your scrog technique is a bit radical too. You're just a radical dude...
Cheers,
JD

 

[cobbled]

build a good scrog net im working of my scrog technique. im new to this but something that helped me and i will be doing this next run is to grow the plants big and bushy then then put up scrog net instead of putting a net up and growing plan though it. i suggest building a solid frame that i can attach netting to that and place that over the bushy plants and spread them out under it 2 weeks before flipping

Chur to those tips as I can see how they will all help next time round. A lot of the low training was due to me being super eager and loving hanging out with my ladies on the regular.... I think as I am coming into the home stretch the honeymoon is over and I am keen to be a lot less hands off going forward.

cobbled,
My own concern with any radical new technique is: Can it fuck up and ruin things. I try to err on the side of plant safety and health. I know you're talking something done at the end of life.
anyway...

So you're doing a little side-by-side test...cool.

The flush thing seems to be a hotbutton issue. Pretty much to each his own.

I flush in hydro using flawless finish...Just the last week per instructions.

Gotta say your scrog technique is a bit radical too. You're just a radical dude...
Cheers,
JD

Side by side with blind testing is the only way forward if you ask me. Seen it in may other different hobbies and jobs I have worked in the past. The boiling things is old school and if you do some digging has A LOT of support as it speeds the roots locking out from o2 (3-5 days after the boil flush) vs drowning (sitting in a bucket of water for up to 8-12 days) to get the fermentation to kick over. Speeding the lockout with boiling water was key in getting the ferment over with before mold can set in and frees up space faster too.

Fermenting (i did a lot of homebrew in the past) while still on the plant just feels right as who needs to smoke sugar if you can pre-convert it to alcohol right.... I will admit to being a geek seeing the science stacks up enough for me to be happy to risk it with the first plant I take down and to make it fair will precut half the plant before boiling flush to get as best side by side test possible)

Cheers for the complements, nice to be called rad! massive thanks for the help so far, stay posted for results soon

 

[JohnDee]

cobbled,
I did small plant ebb&flow for years....with a tray above a reservoir. I had ro water and super stable nutes. Strain was easy to clone and grow (white widow). 24 plants on the 3x3 tray. It was so stable that I did one run with no ph or ppm measurements. I knew exactly what was happening in the res from using it so many times. It was super easy. One busy day per 8 weeks cutting clones and the rest very minor maintenance duties.

So like you, I appreciate an easy to tend garden. Oh, I especially liked that I didn't have to bend over. Most care was done at tray level

On your scrog technique, do you trim branches and such to keep good airflow down below. That seems to be done typically.
Later,
JD

 

[cobbled]

cobbled,
I did small plant ebb&flow for years....with a tray above a reservoir. I had ro water and super stable nutes. Strain was easy to clone and grow (white widow). 24 plants on the 3x3 tray. It was so stable that I did one run with no ph or ppm measurements. I knew exactly what was happening in the res from using it so many times. It was super easy. One busy day per 8 weeks cutting clones and the rest very minor maintenance duties.

So like you, I appreciate an easy to tend garden. Oh, I especially liked that I didn't have to bend over. Most care was done at tray level

On your scrog technique, do you trim branches and such to keep good airflow down below. That seems to be done typically.
Later,
JD

Nice tips, i have been thinking of running an Ebb and flow as it makes the pump timings far less forgiving than DTW. With a bell siphon and over sized overflow (for my own piece of mind) the timer i have that only goes to the full minute would be more than accurate enough. Do you run clay balls or coco in your setup? I can easily convert my current table but worried that as I can only fill to 1/3 of the height of my bags causing issues at the tops would never get good nut flow.

My solution to this was to top feed from the res to the top of each pot down into the tray with a bell siphon to fill the tray .....

some other options I have been thinking about :

DTW using a arduino based timer to get second accurate timing - not to hard to setup, uses most of my current gear and could also run my lighting, heating and cooling from the same controller. the down sides being the time taken to code it up as the online examples do not fit my needs/hardware.

DTW - rather than using a DC pump move the system to small parasteltic pumps to automate feeding each site. same pros and cons as above but with the bonus of getting far more accurate dosing per plant and the ability to then have each plant feeding from its own tank. I

Recirculating Top feed drip in coco - what I have now but recirculate to a lower res. I liked using coco and found it a little more forgiving than a pure clay ball system but feel that going closed loop with res could be a little less hands on than DTW

I have kept the lowers on the plants rather stripped and tried my best to end up with a single layer at canopy level but feel maybe I could have been more aggressive trimming out some of the smaller lower underbud sites. Even tho they are not in full light they are still getting beyond what I would call popcorn level so not too upset about it.

 

[JohnDee]

Hi cobbled,
I used straight hydroton in square 5x5 pots. Rooted clones in 1' or 1 1/2" rockwool and once fully rooted...directly onto tray and 12/12 lighting. Did well with 400 watts but if I do that again I'll go 600 watt or maybe even a 4x4 tray with two 315 cmh. The only downside is the plant count.

I hear ya on the plant height. With larger pots you either need a deeper tray or top drip. I have done really well with every waterfarm grow I've done. Also hydroton though with air powered top drip. Excellent aeration and plants love it. I know I'll have a few of them in my garden. Want to try Nugbuckets main-lining in a waterfarm.

Never used any sophisticated timers or controllers. I'm a back to basics DIYer.

On trimming and lower buds and all that. One old school caveat was that a budding plant will only produce a certain amount of bud...beyond that efforts are futile. So goal is to maximize bud growth on main colos like scrog does. Yes, you have to keep a clean under canopy area or rick disease/mold.

I don't mind doing recirculating system in hydroton...but I prefer run to waste with coco. Either hempy or top drip. I have shied away from DWC because of seeing so many people having root rot. Never had any issues with small pot Ebb abd Flow. Large pot E&F same issue as DWC regarding root rot...only for a different reason. It's hard to get the large pots to fill and drain fast enough and often pots never get emptied enough. Hence the root rot.
Anyway...I'm rambling now,
JD