Mark Blyth, the economist who's making sense

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ttystikk

ttystikk

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Capitalism has crushed all else and in the process, killed its host. I agree with the causes and symptoms outlined in the article, but I'm sceptical that society will quietly wither while the last of its lifeblood is sucked out;
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/11/capitalism-not-bang-prolonged-whimper.html

Occupy Wall Street learned a valuable lesson in 2011; protest is no longer an effective means of encouraging the America political system to change and represent the needs of the People. Only organizing and electing representatives is effective;
https://occupywallst.org/article/protests-wont-stop-trump/
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

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ttystikk said:
Capitalism has crushed all else and in the process, killed its host. I agree with the causes and symptoms outlined in the article, but I'm sceptical that society will quietly wither while the last of its lifeblood is sucked out;
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/11/capitalism-not-bang-prolonged-whimper.html

Occupy Wall Street learned a valuable lesson in 2011; protest is no longer an effective means of encouraging the America political system to change and represent the needs of the People. Only organizing and electing representatives is effective;
https://occupywallst.org/article/protests-wont-stop-trump/
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Pretty shallow read there tty. Micah White, one of the people in the link you didn't understand has been saying that bit about organizing at the grass roots level and he now lives in Nehalem, a town that I pass through on my way to one of my regular dive sites. He says protesting "doesn't work", that people should stop protesting and run for office. He wrote a book on the subject.

The thing is, Michah is as spectacular of a failure as a grass roots politician as he was as a protest organizer. The problem lies with him and his inability to connect with his neighbors. His last run at office alarmed the people of a small backwoods town when he called for a homeless camp in the middle of the Nehalem. His ideas were humane and he had good reasons but he didn't build consensus or agreement, he just ran on some policies and lost by a mile in the election.

Protests are effective at getting a message out and getting people to talk about them. Grass roots organizing is good at building consensus and giving force to political movements. Both necessary. Micah completely misses the reasons why Occupy Wall Street failed and those same reasons are why he's failing to build a grass roots movement in Nehalem.
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Pretty shallow read there tty. Micah White, one of the people in the link you didn't understand has been saying that bit about organizing at the grass roots level and he now lives in Nehalem, a town that I pass through on my way to one of my regular dive sites. He says protesting "doesn't work", that people should stop protesting and run for office. He wrote a book on the subject.

The thing is, Michah is as spectacular of a failure as a grass roots politician as he was as a protest organizer. The problem lies with him and his inability to connect with his neighbors. His last run at office alarmed the people of a small backwoods town when he called for a homeless camp in the middle of the Nehalem. His ideas were humane and he had good reasons but he didn't build consensus or agreement, he just ran on some policies and lost by a mile in the election.

Protests are effective at getting a message out and getting people to talk about them. Grass roots organizing is good at building consensus and giving force to political movements. Both necessary. Micah completely misses the reasons why Occupy Wall Street failed and those same reasons are why he's failing to build a grass roots movement in Nehalem.
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Ok, I'm interested in why you think the Occupy Wall Street movement failed?
 
S

schuylaar

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SneekyNinja said:
Guy keeps spamming the shit he believes for 147 pages, gets nothing but abuse for it and keeps coming back for more.

He obviously enjoys getting beaten up and melting down...

His sado-masocism should've been obvious long ago.
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what are you? the town crier..nothing gets past youuuuuuuu:finger:
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Ok, I'm interested in why you think the Occupy Wall Street movement failed?
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I think Occupy Wall Street movement failed due to its expectations in terms of mismatch between scope and schedule for achieving its goals. As a protest it was successful. As a movement, its leaders and the people at the protests had a very short time frame for very large change. Also the movement wasn't large enough to push through its goals. Also there was a failure in communication. Personally, I did not hear any actionable objectives, just grandiose vision statements.

successful protest
poor communication
unrealistic schedule given its goals
poor long term planning
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I think Occupy Wall Street movement failed due to its expectations in terms of mismatch between scope and schedule for achieving its goals. As a protest it was successful. As a movement, its leaders and the people at the protests had a very short time frame for very large change. Also the movement wasn't large enough to push through its goals. Also there was a failure in communication. Personally, I did not hear any actionable objectives, just grandiose vision statements.

successful protest
poor communication
unrealistic schedule given its goals
poor long term planning
Click to expand...
This is reasonable and squares with my own observations of how their protest and occupation progressed.

There were many instances where they were treated poorly by the mass media and the police- which doesn't invalidate the points you made.

I do think it raised awareness and helped focus people's thinking. It wasn't a worthless exercise and did lay some good foundations for future activism.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
This is reasonable and squares with my own observations of how their protest and occupation progressed.

There were many instances where they were treated poorly by the mass media and the police- which doesn't invalidate the points you made.

I do think it raised awareness and helped focus people's thinking. It wasn't a worthless exercise and did lay some good foundations for future activism.
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Some of the successes that Sanders had last year were from seeds that bore fruit from Occupy Wall Street.

It was pretty much an urban liberal movement that was probably the first time for some of the people at the protests participated in protest rallies. I think Micah has it wrong that protests are ineffective.

Unfortunately for Micah, he's failing at the grass roots for many of the reasons I gave for Occupy Wall Street failed Micah is an outsider in a small town and he isn't trying to be a part of the town and he's only been there for a few years. He's trying to use the town's elections to push an agenda. He doesn't have many friends there. He isn't communicating, he's telling and he's trying to get too much done in too little time. Then he writes this book about "end of protest" as if he and he alone has the answers. Clearly he does not.

He has some good ideas and I'll listen to them. He is right that change will only come after progressives take larger roles in local government. Too bad for him that he's a terrible politician.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Some of the successes that Sanders had last year were from seeds that bore fruit from Occupy Wall Street.

It was pretty much an urban liberal movement that was probably the first time for some of the people at the protests participated in protest rallies. I think Micah has it wrong that protests are ineffective.

Unfortunately for Micah, he's failing at the grass roots for many of the reasons I gave for Occupy Wall Street failed Micah is an outsider in a small town and he isn't trying to be a part of the town and he's only been there for a few years. He's trying to use the town's elections to push an agenda. He doesn't have many friends there. He isn't communicating, he's telling and he's trying to get too much done in too little time. Then he writes this book about "end of protest" as if he and he alone has the answers. Clearly he does not.

He has some good ideas and I'll listen to them. He is right that change will only come after progressives take larger roles in local government. Too bad for him that he's a terrible politician.
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Agreed.

Good points, all.

I think the effectiveness of protest is closely related to what's being protested and the money and connections on the other side.

The DAPL protest is a good example.
 
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