The far red thread

[nachooo]

I've been using 660nm and 730nm initiators for a couple of years. Have run from 12.5/11.5, 12/12, and 11.5/12.5 (current). Regardless of strain, the initiators didn't seem to do much if anything at all at reducing finish times until I got to 12/12, then much faster finishing at 11.5/12.5 which is likely where I'll stick as there's been no notable difference in yield.

Biggest difference with same strain/clone (known control clones were used on every run) was as long as 63 days at 12.5/11.5 and down to 50 days at 11.5/12.5. The most significant difference/reduction in finish times was after changing to 11.5/12.5.

imo initiators are questionable (to reduce finish times) unless you're running 12/12 or less (11.5/12.5, 11/13) from what I've seen. I also believe the shorter lights-on times have more of a role in reducing finish times than initiators alone. Will be validating that next by running some known clones at 11.5/12.5 with no initiators.

Yes, it seems that they need 12 dark hours or more to be effective reducing time..and yes also that reducing light hours is more effective way...I am gonna try a 10/14 with far reds with a sativa and a pure indica I hope to post results. I will put more PPFD to mantain production in some way

 

[randydj]

Have you ever tried 14 on 10 off with 730s at bedtime right at the flip?

Yes I have run Moby Dick CBD like that. It was a very successful grow but I don't have any way of knowing if it changed time for flower or harvest. I am starting some autos right now that I intend to run 20/4 with 730 nm at lights out for 15 min. Once again these are new strains to me so no valuable time line.

 

[RandomHero8913]

I have a question for you guys: What biological activity/process is taking place during the transition to darkness?

I've been trying to find out some information after reading about plant circadian rhythm. All of the pictures associated with it show the light and dark cycles happening in a pattern like a Sine wave or an 'Analog Signal' with the lights on portion more abrupt than lights out. I've heard many times that once our lights turn off it takes about two hours for the plant to fall asleep. So what is happening in those two hours? And will the process still take place if the plant is put straight to 'sleep' using FR? Basically, what are we losing if anything when we change the plants cycle from 'analog' to 'digital'?

If there is a beneficial process taking place during those two hours instead of applying the FR as soon as the lights go out would it make a difference if we were to wait 30+ minutes before the FR turns on?

 

[randydj]

I have a question for you guys: What biological activity/process is taking place during the transition to darkness?

I've been trying to find out some information after reading about plant circadian rhythm. All of the pictures associated with it show the light and dark cycles happening in a pattern like a Sine wave or an 'Analog Signal' with the lights on portion more abrupt than lights out. I've heard many times that once our lights turn off it takes about two hours for the plant to fall asleep. So what is happening in those two hours? And will the process still take place if the plant is put straight to 'sleep' using FR? Basically, what are we losing if anything when we change the plants cycle from 'analog' to 'digital'?

If there is a beneficial process taking place during those two hours instead of applying the FR as soon as the lights go out would it make a difference if we were to wait 30+ minutes before the FR turns on?

What you are looking for is the phytochrome function google it. there is a lot of information out there some simple some very complex.

 

[RandomHero8913]

What you are looking for is the phytochrome function google it. there is a lot of information out there some simple some very complex.

Thanks! Thats a big ole' rabbits hole that got me started with all of this.

 

[randydj]

Thanks! Thats a big ole' rabbits hole that got me started with all of this.

Yep me too .

 

[nachooo]

I am getting the high PPFD by using led hyper efficiently. 10w-45w adjustable means I can turn it up to provide more PPFD or cover a larger footprint. To get even coverage across the footprint they are running about 23w each for 280w, and with another 20w to air circulation, totaling 300w power cost per 1m2. Cranking them up to 45w each will put out 2800-3500 PPFD across the canopy which is just a waste of power.

You can increase PPFD by adding electricity or adding light sources.The more cobs you have drawing from the same power pool the more light you get. 2 cobs produce at least 120% light output using the same power as 1 cob yet 1/4 the heat. DLI goes up as more PPFD is produced so your electrical usage is the same.

I think that flower schedule may stress the plants. Can't answer the question. You could give it a try. I do know that using UV to stress for seeds works well.

Hello Photon flinger I replied your post just to say thank to you...As I could not send you a private message I have used this post to contact with you
I used the reducing hours maintaining DLI tech that you told me...
I can say it works incredibly well...
Here is a photo of a mostly indica strain which is very fast..in normal 12/12 it is ready at 45 flowering days which is very nice..but...
Using your tech is done in 31 days exactly 2 weeks less. I used 10/14 with far reds so like 10/16
Look at the pic... 33 days in flower....incredible..not reduction in quantity (potency seems the same) You will noticed a little banana in the lower right zone, this strain does that usually at 12/12 and I like it cause a few bananas give me a few feminized seeds that I use from time to time..so I am not worried about that.
I wonder if I could force things a little more...using 8 or 9/12....
Thanks again

 

[nachooo]

Just some more pics in order to compare results that I have to say I am very happy with:
First pic: actual grow 40 days flowering time pure sativa 10/14 (plus Far red at the end so like 10/16)
Second pic: same clon same 40 flowering days different spectrum and 12/12 clasical photoperiod appear in this thread https://www.rollitup.org/t/old-school-sativa-under-vero-18.940938/
The two ones suffered some overfertilization but the second one in much more grade
The health of the first is far better than the second one, also trichs are more in the first. This is less appreciated in the pic than in real.
The first one is about 12-14 days more mature
Smell is better can believe is exactly the same clon
Also the first one was grow with some bending tek to manipulate auxins so its secondary branches are much bigger and tall if I would have used the normal growing style like in the second pic , probably this main cola would be bigger
At this point I think they will be ready in a total of 50-55 days...
At 12/12 I used to cut them at 65-70 days and considering it is a very fast sativa indeed, is nice...but now...55 days...
I can also let it mature until 70 days..and maybe have much better results, I never let mature it in 12/12 until 85 days which would be the equivalent...
Comments welcome I love this forum

 

[randydj]

Yes, it seems that they need 12 dark hours or more to be effective reducing time..and yes also that reducing light hours is more effective way...I am gonna try a 10/14 with far reds with a sativa and a pure indica I hope to post results. I will put more PPFD to mantain production in some way

I am near to finishing a run of autos on a 20/4 schedule running 730 nm 15 minutes at lights out. They appear to be 7 - 10 days ahead of breeders stated time. I will post the results at harvest.

 

[nachooo]

I am near to finishing a run of autos on a 20/4 schedule running 730 nm 15 minutes at lights out. They appear to be 7 - 10 days ahead of breeders stated time. I will post the results at harvest.

Interesting...is a mistery to me that a plant which flower automatically, reacts to phytocrome Fr related changes...my first thought was it should be not affected...Wish to know more about this issue..Maybe autos are not absolute autos at the end or maybe Fr acts independenly reducing maturation time in autos...

 

[randydj]

Interesting...is a mistery to me that a plant which flower automatically, reacts to phytocrome Fr related changes...my first thought was it should be not affected...Wish to know more about this issue..Maybe autos are not absolute autos at the end or maybe Fr acts independenly reducing maturation time in autos...

The plant has the genetic disposition to flower as soon as it can in order to produce seeds in a climate zone with a short growing period. So the flowering start is not controlled by day length but it still has a phytochrome function that is manipulated by the far red light that lets it think that the night is longer than it really is. The longer the night the faster it needs to bloom. I have been thinking about going to 18/6 just to see if it speeds things up even more?

 

[nachooo]

The plant has the genetic disposition to flower as soon as it can in order to produce seeds in a climate zone with a short growing period. So the flowering start is not controlled by day length but it still has a phytochrome function that is manipulated by the far red light that lets it think that the night is longer than it really is. The longer the night the faster it needs to bloom. I have been thinking about going to 18/6 just to see if it speeds things up even more?

I would do it

 

[RandomHero8913]

Can I just get some clarification from you guys? I hear a lot of people talking about using FR in their lighting schedule and a lot of them think you're actually gaining or adding two hours to the day.

If it takes a plant around 2 hours to fall asleep a 18/6 day would be more like 18/4
But if you add FR at the end of the day wouldn't that make it a true 18/6?

Same Same with flowering, a 12/12 would be more like 12/10
Bit with FR you'll actually be getting the full 12/12?

 

[nachooo]

Can I just get some clarification from you guys? I hear a lot of people talking about using FR in their lighting schedule and a lot of them think you're actually gaining or adding two hours to the day.

If it takes a plant around 2 hours to fall asleep a 18/6 day would be more like 18/4
But if you add FR at the end of the day wouldn't that make it a true 18/6?

Same Same with flowering, a 12/12 would be more like 12/10
Bit with FR you'll actually be getting the full 12/12?

Yes you are right in veg and flower time
At indoor conditions normal 12/12 without Fr would be similar to a 12/10 outdoors..this photoperiod does not exists in nature cause days are 24 hours and Fr occurs all days maybe with cloudy day exceptions.
At indoor conditions 12/12 with Fr would be similar to a real 12/12 outdoors and similar to 12/14 indoors without Fr (hard to calculate this time regime indoors), also at 10/12 indoor with Fr will be similar at least regarding maturation time, but you will have less production unless you mantain the same DLI of a normal 12/12 and increase the PPFD
Using Fr will allow us reproduce more accurately outdoor situation, and of course a new tool to play with

 

[Rocket Soul]

Has anyone tried using a normal incandesant light bulb for far red lights out switching? Every place ive seen a spectrum for incandesant it says the same: more far red/infrared light than 660nm which means spectrum should be ok for lights out switching

 

[InTheValley]

so what happens if you use 730nm in veg? Does it just knock out the plant, and start nighttime process instantly? Im going to use 17 on/ 7 off. But if FR cuts 2 hours, its really 17on/9 off.

just wondering what benefit in Veg.

going thru this thread to find if anyone has mentioned already,

Thanks

 

[nachooo]

Has anyone tried using a normal incandesant light bulb for far red lights out switching? Every place ive seen a spectrum for incandesant it says the same: more far red/infrared light than 660nm which means spectrum should be ok for lights out switching

Think it will not work...you are gonna need much bigger 720/660 ratio
When Fr appears in nature just before night..has a big 720/660 ratio than an incandescent bulb what you can use instead of 720 nm leds is a black light incandescent light...the ones that are used in terrariums...and were used as little source of UVA before Uva fluoros appeared lot of years ago

 

[nachooo]

so what happens if you use 730nm in veg? Does it just knock out the plant, and start nighttime process instantly? Im going to use 17 on/ 7 off. But if FR cuts 2 hours, its really 17on/9 off.

just wondering what benefit in Veg.

going thru this thread to find if anyone has mentioned already,

Thanks

Some people said that is not needed...I have asked myself this also..And nobody gave me a clear answer also...my thoughts are..in nature exist..We should do it, IMHO at least night should starts earlier...plants grow more hours at night, it rest better, it grows more

 

[InTheValley]

Some people said that is not needed...I have asked myself this also..And nobody gave me a clear answer also...my thoughts are..in nature exist..We should do it, IMHO at least night should starts earlier...plants grow more hours at night, it rest better, it grows more

hey nachooooo, thanks for input. Im going to do it anyways to see what happens. Im not in veg long anyways with my next round of sprouts. (10)

I agree with your sentiment.

 

[randydj]

This is an excellent source of information on Far Red Response . You all need to check your math a day is 24 hours period. The Pr response to 730 nm light simply converts the hormones Pfr to Pr in 15 minutes instead of 2 hours. The plant changes states faster. This allows you to run lights longer and still give the plant enough time in the Pr state. I have flowered photoperiod plants successfully on 13.5/10.5 They were sativa dominant plants and did not like the 14/10. I believe I shaved 10 days off the normal ripening time. The problem with a claim like that is that there are a large number of other variables that also affect ripening time and my conclusions are generally based on observation alone. Not scientific!