CobKits
Well-Known Member
part of that is your are running the video card to its limit its whole life. cobs have it pretty easy the way we use them
heat is the enemy!
The LED "Arms race".....
- Thread starter Chip Green
- Start date
heat is the enemy!
Enigma
Well-Known Member
If the 1825 matches the Vero but costs more I'll have to wait until the price drops to consider them.
However, I do need to place seven COBs very close to cover one square meter, possibly 18-12 distance from the emitter. I'm not sure which will be best, I'm still leaning towards the Tasty light engine except I'll be using lower currents to drive them and I probably won't need the beefy heat sink Tasty offers. I might get away with an aluminum extrusion similar to the RapidLED Vero29D fixture, I'd get the RapidLED fixture if it could hold seven, even with two of those I could spread the light evenly.
This is where I will spend extra to have someone CNC holes in the aluminum and tap so I don't ruin it with hand tools.
I'm the end, I hope to increase possible yield by almost 300%, if my calculations are accurate.
I'm so excited, I waited a decade for LEDs to evolve!!!
CobKits
Well-Known Member
thats the gen 5 and wont be dropping in price, i might blow mine out at some point to clear inventory. citi is weird they dont drop prices for old models. the gen6 citi1825 are above both the veros and gen5 citis in output
its not hard with a drill press and one of these. i wont tap without it
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-New-Type-Self-Aligning-Align-Tap-Reamer-Holder-4-Jaw-V-Guide-NEW-/351264122527?hash=item51c8f9269f
CobKits
Well-Known Member
thats the gen 5 and wont be dropping in price, i might blow mine out at some point to clear inventory. citi is weird they dont drop prices for old models. the gen6 citi1825 are above both the veros and gen5 citis in output at a given wattage
its not hard with a drill press and one of these. i wont tap without it
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-New-Type-Self-Aligning-Align-Tap-Reamer-Holder-4-Jaw-V-Guide-NEW-/351264122527?hash=item51c8f9269f
wietefras
Well-Known Member
Current lights will be "far" behind in a couple of years too though. It's going to be cheaper to replace that old light by new lights because you will save that extra investment back through savings on your electricity bill. Just like the way it made sense to ditch that HPS and buy a led fixture.
Personally I doubt a current leds will be economically viable for more than 3 to 4 years. At the very least it's cheaper now to invest as little as possible and go a bit lower with the efficiency and in two years time replace the whole fixture or keep the old parts and double the COBs to increase there efficiency somewhat and replace the missing wattage with new COBs
In fact my two year old COBs are not even worth that anymore. Efficiency has risen by about 18% while the COBs prices have been cut in half. It's cheaper/easier to replace the COBs with new COBs than to muck about "tripling" them up to salvage the old parts trying to get near the efficiency of current COBs. I can keep the drivers and frame obviously, but going nuts on the led arms race for the leds just doesn't make much sense for DIY.
The bunch of COBs on my first COB fixture which cost me $400 two years ago, could now be replaced by $80 worth of COBs and in return I would save either $64 per year on electricity or keep the wattage the same and harvest more grams because I would have 15% extra light and thus yield.
So technically I could stubbornly keep using it for 10 years, but economically it would be more wise to upgrade/replace the thing. No different with that video card that lasts only a few years effectively.
Personally I doubt a current leds will be economically viable for more than 3 to 4 years. At the very least it's cheaper now to invest as little as possible and go a bit lower with the efficiency and in two years time replace the whole fixture or keep the old parts and double the COBs to increase there efficiency somewhat and replace the missing wattage with new COBs
In fact my two year old COBs are not even worth that anymore. Efficiency has risen by about 18% while the COBs prices have been cut in half. It's cheaper/easier to replace the COBs with new COBs than to muck about "tripling" them up to salvage the old parts trying to get near the efficiency of current COBs. I can keep the drivers and frame obviously, but going nuts on the led arms race for the leds just doesn't make much sense for DIY.
The bunch of COBs on my first COB fixture which cost me $400 two years ago, could now be replaced by $80 worth of COBs and in return I would save either $64 per year on electricity or keep the wattage the same and harvest more grams because I would have 15% extra light and thus yield.
So technically I could stubbornly keep using it for 10 years, but economically it would be more wise to upgrade/replace the thing. No different with that video card that lasts only a few years effectively.
CobKits
Well-Known Member
hard to say.... i feel that they may be reaching the limits of the tech, as evidenced by how similar competing mfrs products are
i think the best use of old cobs is to drop the current and stack em up to match the efficiency of the newer ones
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
I'll be testing with them for a long time. Even if chips get to be 20% more efficient I'll still be getting good use from them.
CobKits
Well-Known Member
on the flip side of the argument above (sorry didnt read your post all the way thru) this is why i like the industry standard sized cobs. anybody who bought $8 citi 1212s are in line for an easy upgrade to the next gen of cobs coming in 2018 (cxm22 gen4/1818 gen 7/whatever b-lux and cree have coming out)
Enigma
Well-Known Member
I'm very familiar with drilling and tapping from years of working in the automotive industry, I couldn't keep my hands clean it seems.
Now, I feel old. The time and money it would cost me to acquire new tools after liquidating my storage unit would be better spent with my pups.
I'll pay for this service, they can use a machine to drill and tap at a far higher accuracy than I ever could.
wietefras
Well-Known Member
@CobKits, Yes, I'd put more trust in replacing them than in doubling them up. I'd really have to "triple them up" already to compete with current COBs/led strips.
With pre drilled heat sinks you'd only have to replace the COB holder if the COB has a different size. Perhaps slightly less convenient than simply replacing the COB, but not that much of an issue either.
It might not move as fast again as the last 2 years, but I'm pretty sure from now to 3 to 4 years in the future the same step forward will have been made. These things will start hitting mainstream more and more and prices will tumble further. In a sense that's also the equivalent of increasing the efficiency.
Technology will shift too. Right now I guess I'd rather go for low to medium intensity led strips than COBs (or boards). Much easier to turn into a fixture with little cost in cooling and better light distribution. Strips also seem to be coming down in price even faster than COBs.
Not sure if that will ever become a viable option, but as much as people seem to detest purple lights here, a purple coating on a Citizen COB does offer some extra efficiency too. They are just way too expensive to make them worth it. That could change too.
With pre drilled heat sinks you'd only have to replace the COB holder if the COB has a different size. Perhaps slightly less convenient than simply replacing the COB, but not that much of an issue either.
It might not move as fast again as the last 2 years, but I'm pretty sure from now to 3 to 4 years in the future the same step forward will have been made. These things will start hitting mainstream more and more and prices will tumble further. In a sense that's also the equivalent of increasing the efficiency.
Technology will shift too. Right now I guess I'd rather go for low to medium intensity led strips than COBs (or boards). Much easier to turn into a fixture with little cost in cooling and better light distribution. Strips also seem to be coming down in price even faster than COBs.
Not sure if that will ever become a viable option, but as much as people seem to detest purple lights here, a purple coating on a Citizen COB does offer some extra efficiency too. They are just way too expensive to make them worth it. That could change too.
CobKits
Well-Known Member
for sure
think of every mall, every stadium every streetlight every office. led market will be 10x what it is now
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
My city is already deep into a program of replacing all HPS streetlights with LED.
Every time I turn around I see more LED lighting, so this process is well underway.
My only concern is that due to the longevity of LED lighting, the manufacturers will have a hard time building long term demand lol
Photon Flinger
Well-Known Member
A lot depends on if you view this as a hobby or as a business.
Hobbyists get away with trying new things in the pursuit of whatever they deem as desirable. Fun.
Entrepreneurs can't get away with trying new things without taking a risk. Not so fun.
Hobbyists get away with trying new things in the pursuit of whatever they deem as desirable. Fun.
Entrepreneurs can't get away with trying new things without taking a risk. Not so fun.
Enigma
Well-Known Member
Every single entrepreneur in the history of man-kind took a risk going into business, men like Tesla were taken advantage of and lied about.
Talk about conspiracy.
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
The whole point of entrepreneurialism is to take a risk on something new.
If it isn't fun, get a job. It isn't for everyone.
Chip Green
Well-Known Member
I'm just barely getting my feet wet in this whole realm. I simplified as much as I could with my starter builds. They work as well as they need to for my current skill level. As that grows, maybe in time my lighting could dial in tighter, but that's a ways down the path I do believe....
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
They noticed a big issue with the led traffic signals in the northern states right away........ they don't generate enough heat to melt ice/ snow off themselves; oops......kinda important: )
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Abiqua
Well-Known Member
Its everywhere....I mean do I really need 6 chainsaws and enough logging and soil testing gear to outfit a platoon...probably not, but the arms race is everywhere and literally everyone is involved in some way throughout this crazy.....name something that doesn't have a subset of crazy dedicated attached to it 
good post, OP
@Chip Green
good post, OP
@Chip Green
nfhiggs
Well-Known Member
Nice numbers corey!Exactly. My last harvest numbers are just about in. looking like 34-37oz from 660 cob watts in a 4x4 space. I think my set up has paid for itself several times over. (That's an all time personal best from me in that space)