first time organic "diy cook" soil

[im4satori]

hi guys
HYSTORY
so last run I started in FFOF and ran a mostly organic grow but the soil was light and it required frequent teas and Epsom salt and a smidge of guano

in the end I was very very pleased!

this go the plants are in my soil

7.5 gallons (1 cubic ft)
equal parts compost, perlite, peat
1/2 cup dolomite lime
1/2 cup oyster shell
4cups rockdust
1/2 cup azomite

2 cups amendment mix
2 parts kelp meal
1part neem
1part alfalfa
1part crab
1/2 part fishmeal

and I wet it 1x with a mixture of hydrolyzed fish and tea (which made it a bit hot)

3.5 week cook (kinda short)


plants started in 6" pots of FFOF
then transplanted into 5 gallon DIY soil
then recently transplanted again into #20 gallon pots DIY soil

there nice and healthy and the soils showing mild heat which I believe was from the hydrolyzed fish
everythings nice and green with an ever so slight leaf curl here or there that seems to get better after each watering (again I think the hydro fish is leaching out)

ISSUE
so im showing signs of micro nute def on a couple plants, I let it go for a week to see if the transplant would recover it but it seems to persist

im also seeing magnesium def, again I though tit might go away after transplant but its still creeping slow

neither issue is severe but its still obvious

I corrected the issue with a 2x spray of peters s.t.e.m. (micro nute mix) Epsom salt and fulvic acid
and I added 1/2 tsp Epsom salt and fulvic to the root zone on the last watering

they all seem very happy about it and it seems to have fixed the mild issue

if I took a picture it wouldnt really tell you much as they all look pretty good over all with just a few sightings of the issue here or there
but im happy to post a pic


QUESTION

what you recommend I do to avoid having to repeatedly supplement micros

just wait it out until theyre available
or
add another 1/4 cup azomite per cubic ft top dress and water in?

same question only about magnesium

at this point because the soils already showing mild signs of heat I don't want to dumping teas/biology into it yet and make it even hotter

NOTE: I checked soil and its ph 6.5 and the source water is ph 7.5

 

[Johnei]

Teas that contain no harsh salts should not cause any burning issues, anything harsh in there would have been 'softened' out by the microbial/enzymatic action into available non burning forms. So I suggest with this mix as you say it taking a little longer for what you did put in there to be available, I would pump the Worm Casting/Rock/Kelp/Molasses teas for the beginning days even one after another and should knock out all your problems and get things going good in the soil.

Your soil mix looks good, me, I'm looking into Kmag/SulPoMag/Langbeneite because I think this is missing from my mix to make it the ultimate with another form of Mg and K.. so maybe this in the mix and Mg issue would never come for you?

Your mix is basically has many things that I would of done, I just cant find certain things near me and too expensive to ship, like using 2 different rock dusts=amazing, and both dolomite and oyster shells=amazing.. all things I would also do if I could . so i think your mix is great. Seems we both forgot about the Kmag/Langbeinite/SulPoMag part though..LOL your soil shows Mg, mine going into flower sometimes shows K need. LOL.. think the Kmag type stuff is probably both yours and my answer for the ultimate soil no deficiencies mix.

Realizing now... your soil is more of a super soil, where mine is more a very lightly ammended mix just to create nice home for microbes, and I pump the teas like mad man relying on wicked guanos etc..
All good stuff.. My method i do the way i do, is because i want control, dont like those water only supersoil type mixes, if ya knwo what i mean.. like hydro control, but in a soil. anyway.,, your mix is awesome and you should do very well. Wish you the best grow man.

 

[Wetdog]

Your mix looks fine as is and really doesn't need anything 'new' added, just a slight tweaking of what you have in there now and some time. The only thing *I* see missing is bone meal, but that may be covered with some of the fish stuff you used. IDK, I don't use fish stuff because of the critters it draws.

Some observations from over the years:

I've always had the best results with a mix that has been through at least one grow cycle, or more. They just get better with use. I make the majority of fresh mix in the fall and plant garlic for the first thing grown in it. Garlic has a 8 month grow cycle and overwinters outside. When harvested in late June the mix is better than when it was freshly made.
Sorta like aging wine.

The Mg. LOL I do love my dolomite! Loved it even more after using straight calcitic lime (oyster shell), in one batch of mix. Had constant Mg problems till it got corrected. BUT! .... Even with dolo, I've found that the Mg component releases much slower than the Ca component and I now add some epsom salts to the fresh mix. Usually this is enough till the Mg in the dolo becomes available, but sometimes a second application is needed. Once it starts releasing, the issue goes away.

Micro nutes. First thing to bear in mind is that kelp meal can supply all the trace and minerals you need. That's your fallback and backup and quickly available (sorta). Be that as it may, I still use Azomite, but at a slightly higher rate than you, closer to 1 1/2 cups/cf. But all seem to take some time to become readily available and for the micro herd to make them available.

I think you would be better served with a light top dress of kelp meal over the Azomite, using the same amount. Kelp just brings more to the table than minerals and trace, but either one would be fine.

Same thing with the epsom salts. A light top dress isn't going to hurt anything. I usually just sprinkle some on the surface and let regular waterings do the rest, whatever method you prefer.

Then, just wait and watch them grow.

 

[im4satori]

ya I think if I water it 1 or two more times the hydro fish will run its course
im pretty sure that's why its a bit hot I think I over did it

so it sounds like the hydro fish is hot but the rest of the amendments are still not quite available

so I will add some basic tea and be watering in some peters micro/stem until things get going

as for the magnesium, I guess its easy enough to top dress! maybe id been better of using strictly dolomite to get the magnesium up
MJ loves her some Mg...here piggy piggy!

question;
does it make sense to add azomite to my tea brew or is that counter productive to biology?

 

[Johnei]

Not counter productive, but in tea tiny amounts go a long way, it's so packed with every mineral the microbes go nuts. I use 1tsp usualy in the whole tea, not per gal, so much compacted powdery stuff when brewing not necessary. so if I had both products, I would add 1/2tsp of each. and consider these are all food sources, so things like molasses as is usually suggested for brewing is not really neccessary, so again, I add maybe 1tsp per whole tea most of the time or just an unmeasured splash in there, that is, when I'm not looking to use what the molasses has in it as nutrient source for the plants. The more molasses you add, the shorter the brew time because the bacteria will go insane and take over the bucket and reduce DO levels quickly and tea goes aenarobic. less is more here. when you want to grow things like fungal hypha, regular ole peat moss, or the actual soil you mixed up, scoop of that, with more long chain carbo sources like oatmeal, will grow the fungi before any bacteria take over, so a fungal tea you can go 48hrs max without going into anearbobic condition as it takes longer for the long chain carb sources to be broken down.

Hope this helps brother.

edit-fixed some spelling and other mistakes read again, sry, if you already did so it makes sense.

 

[Johnei]

I went to make a coffee and a couple more things came to mind I think worth mentioning.

Kelp/Seaweed Meal - a little bit in the tea will also get the microbes going strong, and provides them something to grab onto in the bucket, those little Kelp/Seaweed granules, compared to rock dusts and the like, will in a sense keep what you put in there more 'fluffy' with more micro gaps for bacteria/fungi to do their thing. Seaweed is also well known, as you are well aware I know, as a plant tonic and micronutrient powerhouse to knock out deficiencies etc. so a little bit in the tea even just a 1/2 tsp for whole bucket, is very beneficial and almost impossible to burn, because you are using the end product after microbes has been digesting for a while. The microbe dead bodies full of the food they ate is nutritious to other fungi and bacteria in your soil and will make 'things happen'. Ok, cu.

(If you only have liquid seaweed, still a very very small amount will do wonders in the tea, but wont provide those benefits I meantioned of giving microbes a home to latch on to, and maybe is best added after a tea is done just before feeding plants.)

 

[im4satori]

let me tell you exactly how I brew my tea and you can advise me on the amount of azomite
4 gallons water/5gallon bucket

2 cups compost horse/cow
2 cups EWC
1 cup Alaskan humus
6 oz molasses

(I age the compost in oats when I have time)
brew 24 hours disgard after 48 hours

I cut it
4 cups tea per gallon total volume

 

[im4satori]

I have dry
kelp powder,
fulvic acid powder,
amino acid powder
myco/trichoderma powder

but I haven't used them in a tea yet, still getting the feel for the teas and don't need to fuck anything up

from
kelp4less.com

 

[Johnei]

I'm having trouble this minute calculating your last sentence there what the outcome will be in comparison to the amounts you used. This is how I'll write it and you can go from here and figure exactly...

Using a tea straight no dilution, I would use 2-4TBSPs /gal of the composted horse/cow manure, and 2-4TBSPs/gal of the EWC, so from 1/2cup to 1cup /4gal water in the brew. I most likely would never go over the 1/2cup of each to be completly honest. Alaskan Humus is not necessary in large amounts, literally a TBSP per gallon of water, so a 1/4 cup per 4gal tea will provide those super fungi and grow out and would be a waste of product to use any more than that.

Kelp powder will be much more available faster so any recommendation out there from us organic guys about Kelp Meal, cut that amount is my sussegtion about that.
Dried fulvic and/or humic is amazing man, I would add the tinyest amount in every brew always. Tiny amount.
Amino acid powder, I dunno, this may disrupt normal microbe digestion action of what you put in teas, because they will have a source right there in the aminos not having to go looking or working breaking done other stuiff in there and it may be detrimental.
The myco products, I would brew them on their own with just molasses for high bacteria count brew at 24hrs, for example in flower you want trichoderma because they are the kings of Phosphorus break down in the soil.
More fungal brew using the ecto/endo myco's, you want longer slower brew times with longer carb sources like i meantioned before and rolled outs, not powder, but rolled for the surface area will grow these out nice, and this inocculation you want at the begining of plants life for symbyosis of roots on and in ecto/endo, or when transfering to final big pot, get fungi in there.

Alright, I think that's about all I can think of right now. You're not the average Joe I know this, so you will figure this all out and master it, but to a lot of new growers that switch to organics, I don't think they realize how complex some of this can be.

Good Growing.

 

[im4satori]

gotcha

my mix makes a finished 16 gallons of straight tea after its cut

 

[Wetdog]

ya I think if I water it 1 or two more times the hydro fish will run its course
im pretty sure that's why its a bit hot I think I over did it

so it sounds like the hydro fish is hot but the rest of the amendments are still not quite available

so I will add some basic tea and be watering in some peters micro/stem until things get going

as for the magnesium, I guess its easy enough to top dress! maybe id been better of using strictly dolomite to get the magnesium up
MJ loves her some Mg...here piggy piggy!

question;
does it make sense to add azomite to my tea brew or is that counter productive to biology?

Slow down some, it looks like you're getting ready to fix something that's far from broken. Some stuff is simply not available yet and adding more is not going to make it more available, just more of it.

20gal container? It's simple. Top dress a couple Tbl of epsom salts. Top dress 1/4 cup of Azomite and 1/4 cup of kelp meal. Water them in, then stop and let the natural process take over.

Regular waterings and the plant itself will take care of the excess fish stuff. *I* see zero need for teas of any sorts in a healthy organic mix and quit using them in 2011 or so. From your description, I see no need for any tea of any sort for your mix, not with the plants doing well for the most part.

 

[im4satori]

Slow down some, it looks like you're getting ready to fix something that's far from broken. Some stuff is simply not available yet and adding more is not going to make it more available, just more of it.

20gal container? It's simple. Top dress a couple Tbl of epsom salts. Top dress 1/4 cup of Azomite and 1/4 cup of kelp meal. Water them in, then stop and let the natural process take over.

Regular waterings and the plant itself will take care of the excess fish stuff. *I* see zero need for teas of any sorts in a healthy organic mix and quit using them in 2011 or so. From your description, I see no need for any tea of any sort for your mix, not with the plants doing well for the most part.

so I top dressed 1/2 tsp Epsom (which is plenty for hydro) is that not enough for soil?

it 50% better today the magnesium def is backing off and the micros sprays have helped and theres new growth without the twisting leaf so the foliar applications have improved the issue

I went out today and purchased a ph probe

so it seems my ph is on the low side

I took a testing from some FFOF soil I had on hand (for comparison)and it reads PH6.8

I took several ph testings from my plants that are in my DIY soil and its giving readings between PH 5.8 and PH 6.2

so maybe the issue with magnesium is related to my ph??
I took a look at the ph graph for soil and looking at the graph it doesn't look like many things would be effected by the lower ph...except maybe magnesium and phosphorus seem less available below ph 6.5

now that ive said that I will also mention I was getting some purple stems, the main vien purple on the fan leaves and I had 1 lower fan leaf on one plant with purple splotch covering a portion of the leaf
I dismissed it as part of the micro nute issue since I figured P def in veg is almost unheard of ..
but now I m thinking its revolving around the ph
my instinct says
since my tap water is ph 7.3 ish and we know the cook was short (although its been about 4 weeks now) maybe I just let it ride and not go chasing the ph, will it rise on its own as the lime kicks in?
or
the other option is to bump the source water ph up to 8.5 the next time I water with potassium silicate and hope it brings it up above 6.5

wish id had more time to give it a nice long cook...live and learn

 

[Johnei]

Epsom is pure salt. Do you want salt in your soil. What other ingredients that ever are added to soil resemble salt. Think about bro, salt and microbes. Chemical brakdown of + - charged particles and cations of epsom at the end=salt.

The compost tea brew will bring pH to balance and plant able to work in wrong pH. Tea is not useless. craziest words I ever heard.

 

[im4satori]

 

[im4satori]

sorry the lights are on

so you can see from the pics.. the new growth on tops looking good

the lower growth looks heavy on N from the fish but im past that issue

but in some places you can see the twisting

and the other pic you can see the zinc def in the variegated leaf (green/yellow) banding
keep in mind this is the only leaf showing this issue, but its a small piece of a micro nute issue when you add in the twisting

these pics are the worst of it

 

[Johnei]

Compost tea allows what was brewed to be uptakes at wrong pH, pH does not matter. the tea is full of dead bodies and organic compounds like free amino acids that bypass this pH thing. roots exuding sugars attracting microbes that eat other miocrobes working with ecto and endo inside everything gets in pH does not matter.. feed the microbes not the plant and the plant will follow. All you have to do is pump the compost teas now without any very strong NPK sources and the plant will work out and fix itself quickly. Watgever you are waiting for to be broken down including your ph stabilization additions in the soil will have quicker success with trillion microbe world down there u must trust the teas. all the cow composty etc not necessary, just bunch of worm castings and food source for them to grow then inoculate, and again, and again. auto fix.

and foliar same brew, again and again, no chance of burn only worm casting tea make everything better fast.

 

[im4satori]

one last thing I will mentiom

I didn't use bone meal

I was advised that my mix had enough P in already and adding bone meal wasn't needed???
any thoughts?? theres nothing there with a ton of P but everything seems to have a little and it adds up ??yes??

on the other hand (from my hydro experience) im not a super fan of the "low P mix ratios" I prefer something in the middle between lucas and Hoagland... not as high P as lucas but not as low as Hoagland

I see on the build a soil site they suggest adding a hand full of bone meal per cubic ft top dressing at the start of flower ??

I don't have bone meal at the moment but I can get it easily

I also have high P guano if I need it later

thoughts?

 

[Johnei]

yes, if low P addition in the initial soil mix you may need extra P later as P is hard to pull from soil without microbe help and if low P there to begin with trouble may come later down the road but for now everything has a little P as you say so ok for veg, but when beginning of fl;ower comes and P requirement is higher can top dress with high P guano at the start and also make high p guano tea and water it in, and 50/50 foliar same tea mix to initiate strong flower response in the beginning and flower formationm will come on quick with high P boost and then again mid flower new top dress more P guano to sustain P levels as long they have P constant supply not super high and not too low like if there was none then you should be ok. guano tea always on hand for more p boost very effective quick acting if ever needed. bone meal not being inside soil and just top dressed after the fact I do not believe is as effective because guano is more than just its mineral content. This is my new robot voice by the way. I can really convey info like this i realize. I am so high. 8 strain mix kief omg death.

lol

-1TBSP guano top dress is plenty scratched in top of soil by the way no need for compost style top dress whole top of roots, and 1TBSP may be even too much it's such good powerful stuff. less is better to test need more then add more, better than add too much in first time.

-if you have P guano and no bone meal, you do not need the bone meal 100.00%
You have better.

 

[im4satori]

ya
after some thought I think you've both made some good points

like @Wetdog said
no reason to add more if its in theryre and not available, adding more isn't going to make it more available
I think his concern was valid about the tea inputs was that I started out saying "my soils hot"

I think that now that my assumption about the fish causing the heat was correct because its clearing quick

now that the new growth doesn't look over fertilized like the lower growth I think @Johnei makes a good point also

if the lime hasn't had time to activate then adding biology should help it along quicker...

I have some powder mycos .. I think I will water some of that in also

 

[Wetdog]

Epsom is pure salt. Do you want salt in your soil. What other ingredients that ever are added to soil resemble salt. Think about bro, salt and microbes. Chemical brakdown of + - charged particles and cations of epsom at the end=salt.

The compost tea brew will bring pH to balance and plant able to work in wrong pH. Tea is not useless. craziest words I ever heard.

Epsom Salts is A salt, a chemical term and not to be confused with sodiun chloride (table salt, sea salt), which is something else entirely.

C'mon Johnei, don't get all butthurt because I don't do teas anymore. Never really said they were useless, just unnecessary effort for no real benefit.

I still use the ingredients that go in teas, but as a top dress and let regular waterings do the tea part as they wash them into the soil. I can see it on a depleted field or yard or whatever lacking a micro herd, but in a active organic soil?

Not just yapping either, years back I did a real side by side, outdoors with same everything, plants, containers, mix, all in full sun. One got just the dry ingredients, the other the same made into a tea. Lasted about 2 months and at the end I could see no real difference. It was then I said fuck all this bubble mess and toting 5 gal buckets around, I'd rather sit, drink beer and watch the hummingbirds and bees in the garden.

But, that's just me.