Stephen Hawking says mankind has 100 years left on Earth. Thanks, Steve.

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
Better get it right the first time if we send a party to Mars. Where do you think this kind of knowledge comes from? A base, not a colony on the moon would be necessary, it would seem to me.

Once we learn how to live in space, why deal with the cost of hauling stuff in and out of a gravity well? All the energy, oxygen, metals, water are available in one form or another outside of big planetary gravity wells.

Are we still in the Politics forum?
I think your information is somewhat out of date.

What part of the space travel conundrum do you think is still unknown?
 

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
Which part is out of date? His logic is solid.
Most of the issues listed have been overcome; we've even used a frikkin Sky-Crane to deploy things to the Martian surface from orbit. (So cool)

The only issue I can see is the potential psychological issues of being 6 months from Earth.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I think your information is somewhat out of date.

What part of the space travel conundrum do you think is still unknown?
I'll answer with a question. Could be this has all been solved. I wish we'd use this knowledge on Earth if we have.

Industrially produced food are making us sick. Life in space means no fresh produce, just packaged food for the rest of your life or at least very few fresh food sources. We only recently realized that trans fats led to heart disease. You laugh about celiacs but the widespread development of gluten sensitivity is a signal that something is not right with our food supply right now and we don't understand it or even recognize it in some quarters of our society. Our understanding of nutrition is primitive and the symbiotic organisms living with us are not well understood either. Do you think there will be no problems keeping people healthy living in a sterile, artificial environment with little chance for a diverse diet?
 

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
I'll answer with a question. Could be this has all been solved. I wish we'd use this knowledge on Earth if we have.

Industrially produced food are making us sick. Life in space means no fresh produce, just packaged food for the rest of your life or at least very few fresh food sources. We only recently realized that trans fats led to heart disease. You laugh about celiacs but the widespread development of gluten sensitivity is a signal that something is not right with our food supply right now and we don't understand it or even recognize it in some quarters of our society. Our understanding of nutrition is primitive and the symbiotic organisms living with us are not well understood either. Do you think there will be no problems keeping people healthy living in a sterile, artificial environment with little chance for a diverse diet?
That's because those foods are full of filler crap to make them cheap cheap cheap.

Gluten sensitivity is on the rise because most wheat used for flour is bred for ultra high gluten content now (for dough elasticity) like how we breed our plants for THC content.

We have astronauts living on ISS which is less protected and less suitable for life than a Martian outpost would be.

My only personal concern would be a shitty internet connection (960,000ms ping).
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I'll answer with a question. Could be this has all been solved. I wish we'd use this knowledge on Earth if we have.

Industrially produced food are making us sick. Life in space means no fresh produce, just packaged food for the rest of your life or at least very few fresh food sources. We only recently realized that trans fats led to heart disease. You laugh about celiacs but the widespread development of gluten sensitivity is a signal that something is not right with our food supply right now and we don't understand it or even recognize it in some quarters of our society. Our understanding of nutrition is primitive and the symbiotic organisms living with us are not well understood either. Do you think there will be no problems keeping people healthy living in a sterile, artificial environment with little chance for a diverse diet?
Sterile packaged food? That's only good for a field trip. If people are going to live in space they'll have to literally grow their own.

Aquaponics is a step in the right direction, because it can process human waste into food, thereby closing the loop. Closed loops are pretty mandatory in space because there's not a lot of room for storing either raw materials or waste. If one can be converted into the other, it solves a lot of problems.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Most of the issues listed have been overcome; we've even used a frikkin Sky-Crane to deploy things to the Martian surface from orbit. (So cool)

The only issue I can see is the potential psychological issues of being 6 months from Earth.
You make my point for me. The tech is probably ready to take us and house us. I'm not sure we know enough about the care and maintenance of the biological units to be housed in this colony. In fact there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Have we solved the problem with bone loss in micro-gravity?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Sterile packaged food? That's only good for a field trip. If people are going to live in space they'll have to literally grow their own.

Aquaponics is a step in the right direction, because it can process human waste into food, thereby closing the loop. Closed loops are pretty mandatory in space because there's not a lot of room for storing either raw materials or waste. If one can be converted into the other, it solves a lot of problems.
Right, so now the ship has to carry enough mass to house a mini farm. I'm not saying it can't be done but I think it needs to be tried out and tested before shipping off a colony to Mars. Early adopters are more accepting of failure but the fact is, the first product run uses the customer as test subjects. . I've worked in technical product development and I know how confident the engineers are before product launch. Then the real learning begins.

Base on Moon first. Ninja is nuts.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
You make my point for me. The tech is probably ready to take us and house us. I'm not sure we know enough about the care and maintenance of the biological units to be housed in this colony. In fact there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Have we solved the problem with bone loss in micro-gravity?
Centrifugal force; spin the ship and live on the inside wall.

Aquaponics allows the critters to find their own balance.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Right, so now the ship has to carry enough mass to house a mini farm. I'm not saying it can't be done but I think it needs to be tried out and tested before shipping off a colony to Mars. Early adopters are more accepting of failure but the fact is, the first product run uses the customer as test subjects. . I've worked in technical product development and I know how confident the engineers are before product launch. Then the real learning begins.

Base on Moon first. Ninja is nuts.
Absolutely. We have much to learn before we fly this. Base on the moon will definitely help work the bugs out. Even before that we need to build them on Earth.

Remember Biosphere 2? It was as much publicity stunt as it was serious attempt at a sealed living space, but it points the way.
 

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry guys but you're falling into the whole "space is scary!" mentality.

Space travel is a number of predefined variables which we've clearly identified and solved, the only real unknown is how the human mind would react to it.

Especially with the now proven automated pre-deployment of the necessary infrastructure, we could have an outpost/colony running before humans ever arrived.

It's not a lack of technology, it's lack of will and resources.

We flew to the Moon with glorified scuba tanks stuck to a tinfoil craft, run by the equivalent of a modern day microcontroller, with attitude adjustment that was essentially fire extinguishers pointed in the 4 cardinal directions (plus up/down and additional ones in pivot spots for roll), and powered by car batteries in the 60's...
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry guys but you're falling into the whole "space is scary!" mentality.

Space travel is a number of predefined variables which we've clearly identified and solved, the only real unknown is how the human mind would react to it.

Especially with the now proven automated pre-deployment of the necessary infrastructure, we could have an outpost/colony running before humans ever arrived.

It's not a lack of technology, it's lack of will and resources.

We flew to the Moon with glorified scuba tanks stuck to a tinfoil craft, run by the equivalent of a modern day microcontroller, with attitude adjustment that was essentially fire extinguishers pointed in the 4 cardinal directions (plus up/down and additional ones in pivot spots for roll), and powered by car batteries in the 60's...
Apollo was a camping trip. Long term habitation is a big step up.
 

thenotsoesoteric

Well-Known Member
I think you're too full of assumptions about the limits of human endeavor.
How so?

I'm a historian and I'd say my "assumptions" are based in my understanding of our past, or at least the minuscule amount of our history that I could research in my years in academia. Our ingenuity is amazing and our accomplishments as a species are truly wonderful but we do have our limits.

Hopefully I don't come off as a negative Nancy but I've had this conversation many times and it's all assumptions. Honestly I feel that neither you nor I will live long enough to know just what limits of endurance humans will need to live outside our planet's bosom so it's all speculation. But it's cool for you to assume that I'm somehow less equipped than yourself to imagine what might be once will fuck this planet off. Cheers
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
How so?

I'm a historian and I'd say my "assumptions" are based in my understanding of our past, or at least the minuscule amount of our history that I could research in my years in academia. Our ingenuity is amazing and our accomplishments as a species are truly wonderful but we do have our limits.

Hopefully I don't come off as a negative Nancy but I've had this conversation many times and it's all assumptions. Honestly I feel that neither you nor I will live long enough to know just what limits of endurance humans will need to live outside our planet's bosom so it's all speculation. But it's cool for you to assume that I'm somehow less equipped than yourself to imagine what might be once will fuck this planet off. Cheers
I meant no offense. Your first assumption was that humans must immediately learn to live in a ship. I disagree, because the moon is an excellent laboratory, with lots of room and other advantages.

I don't see us sending humans to other stars in my lifetime either and I've said so. I HAVE said there's plenty of room in the solar system and that will be enough for humans to survive any planetary disaster.

As a historian, surely you know something about the meteoric technological development of aircraft. Again, it's a historical truism that warfare accelerated that development dramatically. I hope we don't need warfare to accelerate the development of technology needed to live off planet.
 

thenotsoesoteric

Well-Known Member
Right, so now the ship has to carry enough mass to house a mini farm. I'm not saying it can't be done but I think it needs to be tried out and tested before shipping off a colony to Mars. Early adopters are more accepting of failure but the fact is, the first product run uses the customer as test subjects. . I've worked in technical product development and I know how confident the engineers are before product launch. Then the real learning begins.

Base on Moon first. Ninja is nuts.
I feel your philosophy.

Optimistically thinking, humans could achieve colonization of both space ships and foreign planets but given our history, I wouldn't hold my breath. I mean if we completely ravished this planet in a mere 200 years of industrialization then what are the odds we would pull off a colony on Mars, * edit* without a change of ideologies?

Granted, my scientific knowledge base is limited to rudimentary general education courses and tons of Ted's talks and documentaries of the sort but I'm confident in my historical knowledge base that without a huge shift in human behavior we have abysmal odds at space colonization that is capable of sustaining the human race.
 

thenotsoesoteric

Well-Known Member
I meant no offense. Your first assumption was that humans must immediately learn to live in a ship. I disagree, because the moon is an excellent laboratory, with lots of room and other advantages.

I don't see us sending humans to other stars in my lifetime either and I've said so. I HAVE said there's plenty of room in the solar system and that will be enough for humans to survive any planetary disaster.

As a historian, surely you know something about the meteoric technological development of aircraft. Again, it's a historical truism that warfare accelerated that development dramatically. I hope we don't need warfare to accelerate the development of technology needed to live off planet.
Ok I got you.

I did assume that the logical start would be a vessel.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I feel your philosophy.

Optimistically thinking, humans could achieve colonization of both space ships and foreign planets but given our history, I wouldn't hold my breath. I mean if we completely ravished this planet in a mere 200 years of industrialization then what are the odds we would pull off a colony on Mars, * edit* without a change of ideologies?

Granted, my scientific knowledge base is limited to rudimentary general education courses and tons of Ted's talks and documentaries of the sort but I'm confident in my historical knowledge base that without a huge shift in human behavior we have abysmal odds at space colonization that is capable of sustaining the human race.
Nah. We didn't need a revolution in human thought to colonise inhospitable parts of Earth. All we needed was a profit motive. Space will be no different.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I feel your philosophy.

Optimistically thinking, humans could achieve colonization of both space ships and foreign planets but given our history, I wouldn't hold my breath. I mean if we completely ravished this planet in a mere 200 years of industrialization then what are the odds we would pull off a colony on Mars?

Granted, my scientific knowledge base is limited to rudimentary general education courses and tons of Ted's talks and documentaries of the sort but I'm confident in my historical knowledge base that without a huge shift in human behavior we have abysmal odds at space colonization that is capable of sustaining the human race.
TED talks are pretty good. It there one on this subject that you can recommend? Fundamentally, I think our tech is mostly ready to take us into the solar system but our understanding of human physiology isn't at the same level. We've made some progress lately and I don't think the knowledge gap is insurmountable but we have some ways to go.

It's human nature to explore. Which is why there is no question in my mind that eventually we'll make it out there. I'm not so pessimistic of our chances to survive as a species until we make it. Not in my lifetime, I think. But I'd like to be wrong about this.
 
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