LED vs. MH/HPS // which strain to start? -- can't decide.. can't decide- BRAIN ANEURSYM!

[Nic Barlor]

Hello all!
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TL;DR Zero-experience noob, need advice to decide between 300W LED and 250W-400W MH/HPS setup. Grow area will be 32"x32" (80x80cm), height undecided (63"-71", 160-180cm). Tropical climate (right on top of Tropic of Capricorn), mild/dry winters, wet/hot summers. Currently springtime, gonna start the grow in January, summertime.
Have several strains (see the list a few lines down), want to grow either 1 BIG girl or 2-3 medium girls at once to yield at least 200g every 3.5 months (average life cycle for my strains). Wish to LST autos and LST + top feminized strains.
In the future, I'd like to be able to take as many clones as possible from each feminized plant (not the auto), without having to maintain a permanent veg tent/nursery.
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I am a total noob on these forums and in practical growing terms.
Over the past few years (especially the past 4 months), I've been amassing knowledge about indoor growing, looking for good strains and putting budgets on spreadsheets.

Soon I will finally be able to invest in a very complete grow setup.
So here is my grower profile:
- Enough spare time to be very devout to my garden
- No previous cannabis grow experience (or any high-maintenance gardening) (not counting the time I built a DIY chest-like growbox with panda-film and 2 CFLs and germinated some bagseed)
- Tropical climate (southern hemisphere: mild & dry winters, hot & wet summers)
- Spare room in the back of my apartment next to laundry room/service area
- Looking to grow between 1 - 3 girls at once to supply myself and close family with quality bud (a delicacy 'round these parts)

(plan on LSTing autos, and LST + topping feminized seeds)​

- I have the following strains (x3 each): Critical (RQS), Honey Cream Fast-Flowering (RQS), Royal Moby [Dick] (RQS), Purple Bud (White Label Seeds), and Pineapple Express Auto (Barney's Farm -- couldn't pass this one up)

I am between a 32"x32"x63" & 71" grow tent.
I also don't know which strain to grow as my absolute first, nor how many plants to grow at once with 32"x32" grow area (with a desired yield of at least 200g/harvest (every 3.5 months)). I don't really want to grow different strains at once because of their different flowering times/growth rates.

But mostly, I am between a 300W Veg/Bloom LED and a 250-400W MH/HPS setup.
The LED may as well be this one, because I found no difference between it and the one available at a grow shop in my city.


One grow shop owner told me 400W (HPS) for the 71" tent would be great, and 250W for the 63" is the most I should consider for it.
Then I visited a different store, and the clerk and another customer there swore by that 300W LED (at least for the 63" tent), praising it as a very simple (but expensive) solution to our city's intense summer months.

I know that HPS are supposed to produce much denser nugs, but some [very experienced] growers on youtube post videos with lab results comparing their LED vs. HPS yields (with LED yielding up to 0.9g/W and HPS ~0.6g/W), LED producing more THC, more terpines etc...
So there's no contesting those lab results, but on the other hand, he is a very experienced grower with probably some amazing brand-name LEDs (600W is what he used, vs 1000W HPS).

Whereas the LEDs I'm looking at are nothing special, but they do have Veg/bloom switch...

No matter which light setup I choose, I'm going to ventilate my tent as best as possible and always keep an eye on RH, pH, EC etc...

If I choose the LED panel (specifically this one), though, even with the bloom switch, would it be necessary to supplement the lights at flowering stage with a big CFL or several smaller CFLs, or a 150-250W HPS?
I'm worried about the coverage of the LED panel, since I hear they grow what's directly underneath them very well, but obviously as the radius grows, so do the lumens drop off (probably exponentially).

 

[bseeds]

I would not buy a led light unless it was a cob light I would start with hps do not lst your autos in that space with autos probley 3 plants

 

[SPLFreak808]

Air cooled sealed Hps or custom cob panel thats not driven too hard.

With 1 month veg, 3 healthy ladies at a time would be your best bet.

 

[Nic Barlor]

I would not buy a led light unless it was a cob light I would start with hps do not lst your autos in that space with autos probley 3 plants

Thank you for your input, bseeds.
I didn't know what COBs were, but now I do. It seems there is a store in town that sells 3 different models.
Could a 384W full-spectrum (no veg/bloom switch) COB LED (with an actual draw of 168W) compete with 400W HPS? I'm guessing not?

Also, I was under the impression that you should always LST your autos to make the most out of a plant you shouldn't top (I read that somewhere...). I would just be looking to increase the number bud sites. Would it be counterproductive with so much available vertical grow space?

Air cooled sealed Hps or custom cob panel thats not driven too hard.

With 1 month veg, 3 healthy ladies at a time would be your best bet.

Thanks for your reply, SPL.
Yeah, I had already planned on using a cooltube reflector if I ended up going with the HPS. Given the heat of a 400W HPS, would it be advisable to get one with 5" opening for ducts instead of 4"?

When you say 1 month veg though, do you mean 1 month from the moment it sprouts of from the time it's like 6" - 8" high (or has a certain number of fingers on her leaves)?
Can I still top and/or LST my feminized seeds in this growing space? I really feel like I'm gonna have a lot of wasted horizontal space (i.e., wasted light to the sides if it has to come from too high up) if I don't at least top them.

Also, 3 healthy ladies in what size pots for that space (in gallons or liters)?

Picture: COB LED available in town. The 384W one I referred to is basically 2 of these fused together.

 

[bseeds]

auto keep on growing no need to go to flower mode they need all the light they can get they generlay flower in 60 days or so that's why I say do not list and that's from seed 2 of those lights would not equal a 400 watt 3 probley would be closer if you have a reg seed and not a auto then yes list to get more bud sites then you have to switch light hours to start with the flowering process but with autos they do it automatly on there own

 

[Nic Barlor]

auto keep on growing no need to go to flower mode they need all the light they can get they generlay flower in 60 days or so that's why I say do not list and that's from seed 2 of those lights would not equal a 400 watt 3 probley would be closer if you have a reg seed and not a auto then yes list to get more bud sites then you have to switch light hours to start with the flowering process but with autos they do it automatly on there own

So, in regards to autos, you mean to tell me that I don't have to switch their light schedule? Keeping 18/6 doesn't fuck with their hormone production or stress the plant in any way? Do you at least have to switch spectra from ~5000K+ to ~2000K?

 

[SPLFreak808]

@Nic Barlor



Thanks for your reply, SPL.
Yeah, I had already planned on using a cooltube reflector if I ended up going with the HPS. Given the heat of a 400W HPS, would it be advisable to get one with 5" opening for ducts instead of 4"?

Personally i hate fan noise, i go with the biggest diameter i can get away with because it reduces the amount of noise while boosting surface area.. The smaller the diameter the less efficient & faster the fan needs to spin to have the same output as a bigger fan.
Stay away from duct boosters and look for inlines if you go the hid route.

When you say 1 month veg though, do you mean 1 month from the moment it sprouts of from the time it's like 6" - 8" high (or has a certain number of fingers on her leaves)?
Can I still top and/or LST my feminized seeds in this growing space? I really feel like I'm gonna have a lot of wasted horizontal space (i.e., wasted light to the sides if it has to come from too high up) if I don't at least top them.

I assumed 1 month because you said harvest every 3 months but maybe i missed something? Do you have a dedicated flowering area?

My veg starts as soon as the first true node shows.

Training is really subjective to your needs and space, you can top the fems but only do it enough to even out your plants foliage to the lights footprint. You can top the autos too however, i would rather LST them to reduce any chances of shock which will seriously hurt an autos yield, personally i wouldn't even run the autos untill i gain a little experience.

Also, 3 healthy ladies in what size pots for that space (in gallons or liters)?

I'd go for x3 3 gallon pots or bigger if possible and train them out as they veg, build your cab on the higher side so you have room if anything stretches.
Picture: COB LED available in town. The 384W one I referred to is basically 2 of these fused together.
Yes they make pre-built cob panels or you could build them yourself which imo is much better.

 

[Nic Barlor]

@Nic Barlor
Personally i hate fan noise, i go with the biggest diameter i can get away with because it reduces the amount of noise while boosting surface area.. The smaller the diameter the less efficient & faster the fan needs to spin to have the same output as a bigger fan.
Stay away from duct boosters and look for inlines if you go the hid route.


I assumed 1 month because you said harvest every 3 months but maybe i missed something? Do you have a dedicated flowering area?

My veg starts as soon as the first true node shows.

Training is really subjective to your needs and space, you can top the fems but only do it enough to even out your plants foliage to the lights footprint. You can top the autos too however, i would rather LST them to reduce any chances of shock which will seriously hurt an autos yield, personally i wouldn't even run the autos untill i gain a little experience.


I'd go for x3 3 gallon pots or bigger if possible and train them out as they veg, build your cab on the higher side so you have room if anything stretches.
Picture: COB LED available in town. The 384W one I referred to is basically 2 of these fused together.
Yes they make pre-built cob panels or you could build them yourself which imo is much better.

Oh, I see now (in regards to ducting diameter).

No, no, that's correct, about 1 month of veg was originally planned for. I do not have a dedicated flowering area.
Would the first true node be the first true leaves that appear after the cotyledon?

That's so weird how people diverge on what an adequate experience level is to run some autos. Some say they're great for noobs, others say they're tougher to learn. I have a friend who got his [first ever] White Widow auto to flower nicely under a big CFL, but he's run into some nute problems (probably) with his Devil Cream auto (he hasn't performed a single flush since he started them), as they have small buds and seem a little burned (idk if the buds or leaves are burnt), and he's really far down the line.

 

[SPLFreak808]

Oh, I see now (in regards to ducting diameter).

No, no, that's correct, about 1 month of veg was originally planned for. I do not have a dedicated flowering area.
Would the first true node be the first true leaves that appear after the cotyledon?

That's so weird how people diverge on what an adequate experience level is to run some autos. Some say they're great for noobs, others say they're tougher to learn. I have a friend who got his [first ever] White Widow auto to flower nicely under a big CFL, but he's run into some nute problems (probably) with his Devil Cream auto (he hasn't performed a single flush since he started them), as they have small buds and seem a little burned (idk if the buds or leaves are burnt), and he's really far down the line.

First node is the single bladed starter leaves after the cotys,first true node is the actual fan leaves which is really when the plant starts ticking.
To be honest it dont really matter as there are many things that can speed or slow growth.

I'm not trying to discourage you with the autos, growing a plant is incredibly easy however figuring out how to use everything before it causes damage to your plants is another battle to the inexperienced. Autos have a set life time, you might want to dial in your room with the photos first.

As for your friends auto, im not sure... Sounds like he nute burned it and a flush will not prevent the grower from excessive feeding, all it will do is prevent "FURTHER" nute burn and deprive the plant of oxygen.

 

[bseeds]

with autos you give them 18/6 light they do every thing else

 

[Nic Barlor]

First node is the single bladed starter leaves after the cotys,first true node is the actual fan leaves which is really when the plant starts ticking.
To be honest it dont really matter as there are many things that can speed or slow growth.

I'm not trying to discourage you with the autos, growing a plant is incredibly easy however figuring out how to use everything before it causes damage to your plants is another battle to the inexperienced. Autos have a set life time, you might want to dial in your room with the photos first.

As for your friends auto, im not sure... Sounds like he nute burned it and a flush will not prevent the grower from excessive feeding, all it will do is prevent "FURTHER" nute burn and deprive the plant of oxygen.

I see, thanks!
Yeah, as soon as I get all my gear, I'm going to start a grow journal that I'll link to in the future. At that time I'll post pictures of my cab (probably before/during/after).

Well, I passed the info down to my friend, I hope he can figure out what's going on. Thanks for that, too.

with autos you give them 18/6 light they do every thing else

Is that so?? Idk if I've ever come across that info before, but I'm sure I would have remembered. In any case, it does make sense, so thanks!
I wouldn't have wanted to mess up on any of my Pineapple Express autos.

 

[Nic Barlor]

@bseeds & @SPLFreak808

All right, so I went and did some meaningful research on COBs and I have found them to be basically the only other way to do it besides MH/HPS. I think it's too big of an investment for me right now (and if I were to import all the COBs, drivers etc, I would only want to do it once), but in the future when I look to expand my grow area, that's gonna be the way for me!

At this point, I'm leaning more towards the 70"/180cm tall tent just for the extra wiggle room.
But since I am still worried about the really hot summers here, I have been looking at 250W MH/HPS and thinking of investing in better quality 250W than standard 400W bulbs.

For instance, I found this NATRALOX 250W HPS (specially made for blooming) (http://narva-gle.com/natralox-en.html#natralox-veg-en), and it costs a little more than 3x as much as the average 250W HPS, but if that would result in higher efficiency and better buds, I'd say it's totally worth it... However, I do need a second opinion.
Here is the Veg counterpart, the 250W NACHROMA: http://narva-gle.com/nachroma-en.html#nachroma-veg-en
That one is actually ~5x as much as the average 250W MH bulb.

I would be running those in a 5" diameter/19.5" long Cooltube setup, with a 5" inline exhaust capable of pushing out at least 3.1x the volume of my future grow tent per minute.

What do you think about these specialized bulbs vs. the standard bulbs and the cost-benefit ratio?

 

[Olive Drab Green]

If you get proper COBs, my 274w of COB can replace 600w of HPS in about a 4.5x4.5. PPFD is about the same. (~1000+)

Three T1 fixtures running in a 4x2 closet.

https://www.tastyled.com/

 

[SPLFreak808]

@bseeds & @SPLFreak808

All right, so I went and did some meaningful research on COBs and I have found them to be basically the only other way to do it besides MH/HPS. I think it's too big of an investment for me right now (and if I were to import all the COBs, drivers etc, I would only want to do it once), but in the future when I look to expand my grow area, that's gonna be the way for me!

At this point, I'm leaning more towards the 70"/180cm tall tent just for the extra wiggle room.
But since I am still worried about the really hot summers here, I have been looking at 250W MH/HPS and thinking of investing in better quality 250W than standard 400W bulbs.

For instance, I found this NATRALOX 250W HPS (specially made for blooming) (http://narva-gle.com/natralox-en.html#natralox-veg-en), and it costs a little more than 3x as much as the average 250W HPS, but if that would result in higher efficiency and better buds, I'd say it's totally worth it... However, I do need a second opinion.
Here is the Veg counterpart, the 250W NACHROMA: http://narva-gle.com/nachroma-en.html#nachroma-veg-en
That one is actually ~5x as much as the average 250W MH bulb.

I would be running those in a 5" diameter/19.5" long Cooltube setup, with a 5" inline exhaust capable of pushing out at least 3.1x the volume of my future grow tent per minute.

What do you think about these specialized bulbs vs. the standard bulbs and the cost-benefit ratio?

Cant speak for cheap bulbs since I've only used phillips and hortilux but i think you should look up the sun systems lec 315. Sounds like something you would be happy with. Just run that and build a cob unit on the side

 

[Nic Barlor]

If you get proper COBs, my 274w of COB can replace 600w of HPS in about a 4.5x4.5. PPFD is about the same. (~1000+)

Three T1 fixtures running in a 4x2 closet.

https://www.tastyled.com/

Those look pretty dope, my man. Nice self-plug.

Cant speak for cheap bulbs since I've only used phillips and hortilux but i think you should look up the sun systems lec 315. Sounds like something you would be happy with. Just run that and build a cob unit on the side

Are these SUN model reflectors better at reflecting/cooling than a cooltube with a seagull-wing reflector? (I realize the one you posted is an LED)

I see. I'll bet I would be pretty happy with that, indeed, but after poking around online I can see it wasn't meant to be. It costs upwards of $600, but after importation taxes, I'm looking at something around $1140, which actually exceeds my entire grow room + accessories budget all by itself.
Importation taxes where I live are downright abusive. Whenever you import something over $50, be prepared to pay almost twice that, if not more!

As far as the Philips bulb, they have those here, and they're higher-end than the standard, national bulbs and the OSRAM MH/HPS (they're more expensive than both of these, anyway, but still about 40-50% of the Narva NATRALOX price).
I mean, these Narva bulbs are German and they're plant-specialized and they're sold at more than one grow shop in my country, so that says to me that:
a) They ought to be a pretty considerable upgrade from the standard or even the Philips bulb (how much better they truly are I have no way of knowing)
b) It is one of the few high-end/specialized HPS commercially available in my country

Thoughts?

Thanks for the help so far, everyone!

 

[SPLFreak808]

Those look pretty dope, my man. Nice self-plug.



Are these SUN model reflectors better at reflecting/cooling than a cooltube with a seagull-wing reflector? (I realize the one you posted is an LED)

I see. I'll bet I would be pretty happy with that, indeed, but after poking around online I can see it wasn't meant to be. It costs upwards of $600, but after importation taxes, I'm looking at something around $1140, which actually exceeds my entire grow room + accessories budget all by itself.
Importation taxes where I live are downright abusive. Whenever you import something over $50, be prepared to pay almost twice that, if not more!

As far as the Philips bulb, they have those here, and they're higher-end than the standard, national bulbs and the OSRAM MH/HPS (they're more expensive than both of these, anyway, but still about 40-50% of the Narva NATRALOX price).
I mean, these Narva bulbs are German and they're plant-specialized and they're sold at more than one grow shop in my country, so that says to me that:
a) They ought to be a pretty considerable upgrade from the standard or even the Philips bulb (how much better they truly are I have no way of knowing)
b) It is one of the few high-end/specialized HPS commercially available in my country

Thoughts?

Thanks for the help so far, everyone!

yeah the lec's can be pricey, The best bang for the buck is going to be some type of hps hid kit.

People have nice grows with apolo horticulture,ipower ect, just read around a bit.