bgmike8
Well-Known Member
Dude. You say flushing can't do shit but you advocate doing it for the final 14 days.
Which is it? Why do you starve your plants?
EXPERIMENTS 101 - What Have You Tried - What Works/Doesn't Work
- Thread starter hempygrower
- Start date
Which is it? Why do you starve your plants?
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
WHY? Basic MG is a 3-1-2 ratio! All you have to do is use the right amount at feedings! Some Ca/Mg and Kelp with it - works fine.
The source materials leave something to be desired, but it works!
Never use jacks, Peter's, or a few other non mainstream powders? Same thing, better sourced and more selections.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
RICHARD? I respectfully disagree with you on extended darkness periods!
#1: Extended lights out times between veg and bloom are a myth! Your mind is playing tricks on you! Just yesterday I answered a thread on this topic. I even googled for papers on the idea. Found it can possibly INCREASE nodal spacing, faster. There is some evidence that a slower reduction in lighting times can possibly,,
#1: reduce bloom time (indications are that would be minimal. A few days at most.
#2: Reduce the "stretch", and reduce nodal separation.
The idea would be to reduce your lights on time from 18 to 12 or 11 by 1 hr daily........Gaslight veg, I suspect would have no benefit as your just about there already. This (gaslight) does speed up bloom and has reduced internodes too.
Conclusion from research. Extended dark periods are not as good as simply flipping !
Conclusion from trying that idea years ago in several side by sides. I got NO increase in trichome production, and NO decrease in bloom time. In fact the bloom time to harvest was longer by a day+.
There was one paper that came out exactly as I searched that had some indicators of this theory and a cpl of others that seemed to support the idea!
There was enough for me to decide to try this once my situation is cleared (2 more reportings).
I don't care what you feed a plant, as far as nutrition goes! The plant will up-take the same molecules! No matter what the nutrient source is! The difference will affect the growth pattern of the plant and it's parts! BUT, poorly sourced nutrients will not "leave a bad taste" in the plant, that's myth!
Stopping feeding before harvest will not enhance or improve any flavor! We grow organic right? We don't stop feeding do we?
"Flushing" as in a "final flush" doesn't do what many think it does!
I still love ya Bro! Just adding my 2 cents on the topic.
BarnBuster
Virtually Unknown Member
link to papers, Doc? thanks
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Sorry I didn't save them BUT, I searched for "Plants Impaired in State Transition" as a basic paper search. Plenty of papers to read from on the subject.
Yes my conclusions are to be considered "theory"! That's why I'm going to try it!
Some of it is heavy reading BB
BarnBuster
Virtually Unknown Member
thanks, doc, i'll stick them on my collection in MediafireSorry I didn't save them BUT, I searched for "Plants Impaired in State Transition" as a basic paper search. Plenty of papers to read from on the subject.
Yes my conclusions are to be considered "theory"! That's why I'm going to try it!
Some of it is heavy reading BB
VTMi'kmaq
Well-Known Member
Am i wrong in concluding your mimicing the suns cycles?
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
I would imagine that's the basic idea - Shortened quite a bit in time eh?
I have a feeling it's in how the Proteins, ameno's and hormones are made and distributed TO make the transition different from a simple "flip" of a switch.
whitebb2727
Well-Known Member
I always go from veg to flower over a week or ten days.
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Use your brain bro, flushing or just plain water in the last 14 days helps the soil deplete a bit so nicer smoke although if you over fertilize in soil its not somthing you can flush out. No ones starving nothing!!!!
bgmike8
Well-Known Member
Wtf is soil?
tropicalcannabispatient
Well-Known Member
i agree with u BUT HE WAS SAYING WITH JUST PLAIN WATER., i know u can grow an mj plant through all stages in mg i have done it my self but with ferts and additives BUT NOT JUST WITH PLAIN WATER. edit: U say with calmag and kelp and i agree with that. BUT NOT JUST PLAIN WATER LIKE THE OP IS SAYING THAT IT CAN BE DONE WITH MG SOIL. SORRY BUT IT WON'T HAPPEN!!
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Richard Drysift
Well-Known Member
Oh you are talking about mg soil? That shit is the worst especially the stuff with that time released pellets in it. Then I agree totally but I've used that blue crystal mg crap before; wouldn't really call it success but I did grow a plant to harvest using it.
read my response...I said if you use nutrients then you should stop using them 2 weeks before harvest. If you grow in organic soil then flushing is pointless because you are just watering your plants. I don't starve them....I give them all they need in their mix & then just water them; it's fuckin easy
Richard Drysift
Well-Known Member
Got mad love too homey; healthy discourse is how we all learn new shit...I run my bloom room at 11.5/12.5 which seems to help them finish nicely in just about exactly 10 weeks for most strains I've done so far. I'm not saying 2 days in the dark just before chop is a game changer it's just seems to help tighten up the bud; maybe it's just the extra time that makes it work but it does to me that's why I do it. I don't do darkness in between the flip; THAT is totally pointless but I do drop an hour of light in the week or 2 before flowering to 17/7 as opposed to 18/6 which makes for tight nodal stacking. If I'm hard up & run outta weed I'll cut the bitch regardless as long as she's finished lol. I don't flush either just water as normal the whole grow because I use natural organic soil now but when I used nutes I did not do a good job of flushing & my weed always tasted weird.
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Odin*
Well-Known Member
Regarding #1, not a myth;
"We exposed plants to T cycles ranging from 16 to 32 hr comprising a proportion of light to darkness equivalent to an 8L16D short day. ...
We monitored the effects of the same T cycles on flowering time by counting the number of primary rosette leaves at the time of flowering (Fig. 4A). The number of leaves formed before bolting is closely correlated with the number of days to flowering (25). Interestingly, T cycles shorter than 24 hr delayed flowering, suggesting that some degree of photoperiodic induction does take place under standard (8L16D) short-day conditions. How- ever, flowering was accelerated under 28-hr and 32-hr T cycles. Thus, T 28 hr short days were not perceived as inhibitory, even though the duration of the photoperiod was only 1.3 hr longer than under T 24 hr short-day cycles."
So;
Dark<16 hours of darkness pre-flowering prolongs flowering.
Flowering is accelerated by long periods of darkness; Dark>18.66 and Dark>21.33.
Link- http://www.pnas.org/content/99/20/13313.full.pdf
Regarding #2, stretch is directly associated with the inhibition of ELF3 during a prolonged dark period. A 24hr period of darkness inhibits ELF3 from binding ELF4 and LUX. The binding of ELF4 and LUX inhibits plant growth by blocking PILF4 and PILF5 in the early hours of night. By throwing off the plants circadian rhythms (prolonged darkness, inhibiting ELF3), PILF4 and 5 initiate the initial stretch, but also shorten flowering time and increase yield. This explains the accelerated flowering mentioned in my response to "#1".
So, initial stretch is "a good thing" (if you've got the height to allow, you will increase yield and shorten the time to flower onset as well as the time from onset to maturity).
This study manipulated genes to block ELF3 (as prolonged darkness does) in outdoor plants.
Link- http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/archive/newsrel/science/2011_07evening-complex.asp
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
He's talking about MG powdered nutrient....lol
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
For #1 - I disagree! (Nice paper and a good read though!)
You used a paper on LONG DAY plants......AND they used a long day plant, along with mutations of this long day plant that somewhat mimic a short day plant in the actual exp.
They grew the plants for 10 days and took plants out and did RNA sampling every 2 days - with various lighting times equaling a spread of 16 to 32 hrs of lights out or Dark times - Correct? Please note that 32 hrs is all of 8 more then 24 and hardly the 72 hrs that some have suggested here. I do agree that the initial stretch IS a good thing! In the work I looked at the other day i found suggestions that the slower progression to flowering onset may slightly decrease overall stretch. (I was most likely not to clear on that - I tend to keep most of my answers rather easy, or general in nature.)
How does this correlate to decreased bloom time and increased trich productions? In some extended lights out studies, you may see a somewhat faster flower ONSET (as was found in your paper)! Yet- no reduction in actual bloom time when you ADD the extended dark periods! You will also see NO increase in trichome production, through extended dark periods to induce a faster flowering onset.
I find this (taken from your paper)m as being the most telling thing in it.
These results demonstrate that the photope-riodic induction of flowering in Arabidopsis is not triggered by the absolute duration of light, because light dark cycles com-prising identical photoperiods have differential effects on flow-ering time. The photoperiodic timer does not measure the duration of darkness either, as NH cycles that comprised shorter nights or longer nights than normal 24 hr short days (NH 16 hr and NH 28 hr) both accelerated flowering. Lastly, floral responses do not reflect the relative durations of light or darkness within a cycle. Cycles comprising 50% light or 28% light (NH16 hr or NH28 hr, respectively) were more efficient at promoting flowering than conditions comprising intermediate proportions of light and darkness (40 or 33% in 20- and 24-hr NH cycles).
Does this not point to faster flowering onset?
The paper also states that RNA and hormonal response was greatest directly after lights out! It did state that longer dark periods built up more RNA, amino's and hormones to be expressed by the plant at the rise to lights on (by "spectral release/expression" - this is a point that I supply here). I touched on this point either earlier, or in the other thread.
Again these points bring on a faster flower set, not increased trichome production or a true measurable reduction in flowering time worth mention - correct?
Now by reading down to the "discussion" section of the paper, we find that the purpose of the paper is to confirm the relationship of circadian oscillation to initiate the onset of flowering......The resulting finding of faster onsets is secondary to the paper.
Here is a quote from the title and following paragraph of the second section in the discussion.
"Floral Induction Was Promoted When Subjective Night Events Coin-cided with the Light Portion of the Cycle.
Our results suggest that the photoperiodic regulation of flowering in Arabidopsis requires an interaction of the circadian system with a light dark cycle. According to the internal coincidence model, the effect of photoperiod may be to alter the timing of two or more circadian rhythms relative to each other, resulting in an inductive phase relationship."
I am enjoying this discussion quite a bit! Sometimes this place needs more in depth looks at things!
Give me a few to review the next paper and I'll comment on that in the next post!
(I'm trying not to be or come across as arrogant , and understand that I do. I simply want to have a back and forth on this topic on a science level and your doing it!)
@RM3 thoughts?
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Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Ah, yes. I think we have a "misconception" of the points made in this brief overview - to a point!
(This basically a simple overview of the fist paper - in a way!)
First please note this:
"In this new model of plant growth developed by the scientists, PIF4 and PIF5 control the gas pedal that activates plants to grow, while the three genes that produce the evening complex act as the brakes and work with the plant’s biological clock to permit the most rapid growth in the late evening and early morning hours."
Supplying a longer dark period would not greatly effect the outcome you suggest by the simple above statement. Understand?
Secondly, we already understand that the increase in growth seen is in the "stretch" of the plant responding to the change in hormonal production within the plant. This increase supplies greater internodal spacing and not more flowering points! It does increase the "Bio-mass" as they suggest but, not more "fruit" or "fruiting/flowering" points. Thus it can be concluded, that for our purpose, increased dark periods to increase flowering points is ineffective. Understand?
Lastly, it is being found and understood now, as spectral influence that is controlling this increase in hormonal response of the plant, during these times of greatest hormone increase. I have played with the deep red 730nm banding, of this and found it to be rather expensive to employ and as having a rather non effective result in cost to return ratio's (at least on my scale at the time). I stopped doing it.
I enjoy your response and look forward to more on topics that concern our purpose and plant.
NICE posting Odin!
@RM3
Have any thoughts on this and the posting above? I would love your 2 cents on these points he (Odin) puts forth!
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RM3
Well-Known Member
My thoughts are that we need studies done on cannabis ! Looking at studies of other plants is moot in reality other than potential ideas that spring forth from it with regard to direction of studies we'd all like to see performed on cannabis. I take studies on other plants with a grain of salt and prefer to pay more attention to studies done on hemp as there are lots of those and some of what has been learned actually applies (well except for the whole hollow stem fuck up lol) IOW readin these papers and gettin ideas for experiments is a good thing. Doin proper side by sides several times is also a good thing even though potentially anecdotal. I've done 100's of experiments over the years and shared the results. It's not rocket science
IMO the whole extended dark period is a waste of time whether before flip or before harvest, have done both and never saw any improvement, I believe it is a notion that carries a strong placebo effect.
I use Gas Light veg something that truly works to reduce stretch and finish faster. My average stretch is 6 to 10 inches instead of feet, buds show in 6 to 10 days instead of 2 to 3 weeks and plants finish on average 10 days faster
A lot of folks here like to bash some of my against the norm methods but hey they work for me and in the end that is all that really matters. Try growin a land race sativa and see if you can get node spacing like this
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