Another Family ruined over a lil bud and "citizen forfeiture

Should citizen forfeiture be allowed

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
Ace Yonder

Ace Yonder

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
No. A police force that holds a code of silence when another member practically beats one of the people they are supposed to protect to a pulp or to death has no innocent members. Do you think there were good Nazi guards in the Holocaust death camps?
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Believe it or not, I've already covered my views on this. Even as someone who had much of their family die in the Holocaust (and even more in the Russian Pogroms before that), I still understand that not every individual Nazi soldier was a bad person. Many of them were horrible, despicable scum, but no more than the general population of Germany who allowed the Nazi's to take power. Many of them were also good people forced by circumstance into serving an evil cause. Those good ones did what they could in the positions they found themselves in. Here is just one example, but one is enough to prove my point. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/a-survivor-thanks-the-nazi-who-saved-him.premium-1.514163
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Ace Yonder said:
Free Market + No Police = Warlords
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No offense, but you seem to be engaging in a common misconception.

Why do you think in a free market there couldn't be mechanisms to ensure safety and arbitrate disputes that don't use the present forcibly imposed model ?

I think I know why.... the people who told you THEY must hold a violent monopoly on those kinds of services also told you, that if they weren't in charge, chaos would ensue, which is ironic given their violent means of operation, which is used to extinguish your choices and forcibly consolidate THEIR power.

Isn't that what a warlord would do? Forcible disallow any other competitors in a given consumer service ?
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Growdict said:
a lot of african countries have this same system of free market protection, it doesnt work out well.
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You have confused the rubble left behind from failed dictatorships or government with a free market.

A free market doesn't and CAN'T cause chaos, if chaos is to be defined as a system which embraces forcible initial interactions and a hierarchy which monopolizes the use of force. That kind of action would be the germ of a government.

A free market is based on voluntary exchanges and agreements made absent duress.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Growdict said:
yes, i disagree with you rob on the free market police idea, but Jon Oliver covers it quite nicely why civil forfeiture is evil.
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So, people need a monopolistic forcibly imposed authority to ensure nobody imposes a monopolistic forcibly imposed authority?

I'm glad we agree civil forfeiture is bad.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Ace Yonder said:
Believe it or not, I've already covered my views on this. Even as someone who had much of their family die in the Holocaust (and even more in the Russian Pogroms before that), I still understand that not every individual Nazi soldier was a bad person. Many of them were horrible, despicable scum, but no more than the general population of Germany who allowed the Nazi's to take power. Many of them were also good people forced by circumstance into serving an evil cause. Those good ones did what they could in the positions they found themselves in. Here is just one example, but one is enough to prove my point. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/a-survivor-thanks-the-nazi-who-saved-him.premium-1.514163
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Couldn't read it, premium content but I got the gist of it from the headline. In order to move on, victims and I count survivor's children among them, of horrible crimes need to learn how to move on and forgiveness is one way. I get that. Forgiving and moving on doesn't mean a person should open themselves up to the same crime. Israel is a pretty good example of that. Defense has turned into offense. Leaders and some soldiers of Israel have done shameful things, all of which is justified if not overtly then covertly by the undeniable history of what happens when defenseless Jews were scapegoated then murdered. So while people of Israel are working towards understanding and forgiveness, there is no intent of letting it happen to them again. And then, Israel crosses the line thus perpetuating the cycle.

To me, the exception proves the rule. One person can be found who did something good in the middle of all that bad. Its so unusual that it becomes legend. Ali just got a lot of remembrance today. One quote I came across of his applies here. He said that not all white men are evil racists. But if, among 10000 rattlesnakes coming his way, 1000 of them were not going to bite, he'd still shut the door on all of them. To protect himself. Same thing for cops.
 
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Ace Yonder

Ace Yonder

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
You have confused the rubble left behind from failed dictatorships or government with a free market.

A free market doesn't and CAN'T cause chaos, if chaos is to be defined as a system which embraces forcible initial interactions and a hierarchy which monopolizes the use of force. That kind of action would be the germ of a government.

A free market is based on voluntary exchanges and agreements made absent duress.
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And how do you ensure an absence of duress with no police force? Or are we just gonna use the honor system?
 
JCS57

JCS57

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
It's ok because to a reasonable person that money was most likely earned illegally.

Theyre here ilegally. Theyre counterfeiting our documents. And they're selling drugs to support themselves and I would be willing to bet taking social services while at it.

Yes, kick them the fuck out and keep their cash.

In opposed to civil forfeiture in many cases. But in cases where the money is clearly derrived from the sale of drugs, it's hard to be opposed.
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First you say the money was "most likely earned illegally" then you slip right into "clearly derived from the sale of drugs". Didn't see the part about the government catching them dealing. So as long as they ain't from here suspicion is sufficient grounds to rob them? Christ that's a low threshold.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Ace Yonder said:
And how do you ensure an absence of duress with no police force? Or are we just gonna use the honor system?
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That's a reasonable question, but before I get to that, let's point something out.

It is IMPOSSIBLE under the present set up to ensure an absence of duress, since the present set up arises from and is dependent upon coercion and grants a monopoly on force to a single entity.

So, before we move on to a possible solution or alternatives, let's recognize what the present policing model really is, a forcibly held monopoly. Would you agree or not?
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'd be willing to bet that truck has gone through several owners, all of whom were murdered or nearly so for that truck. That's the way Roy's free markets work. If you can't defend it, you can't own it. The one with the most guns and best organization wins.
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You have it exactly inside out, but your fear of doing a real comparative examination has blinded you.

The words you don't comprehend = customer feedback matters and is why a free market is superior to an unfree one.


The way that a central authority works, the one you live in, is thru a consolidation of power into one entity which holds a monopoly on the use of force. Feedback from the people "owned" by that system is reduced to the point it's meaningless and is really only a distraction.

The way that a free market works is to decentralize power and feedback from people DOES matter, since if you don't like a service provider, you can always chose another one or even become one without the forcibly imposed barriers to entry which prevail in an unfree market.

I doubt you'll be able to refute what I just said, if you stick to reality that is.



You don't understand, therefore you dismiss,

A free market is
 
shorelineOG

shorelineOG

Well-Known Member
doublejj said:
They offered a plea deal for a misdemeanor "intent to traffic" with 6months prison sentence, or face trial for felony trafficking and face up to 5 years to prove the money was legit. even with tax returns you might still lose at trial...
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I got arrested for weed and had a few thousand which they kept. I think it was like a civil law suit against the currency and if I went to trial and lost I would also pay court costs, if I won my lawyer wanted half. What a fuckin racket.
 
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