EXCUSE ME?!..The OFFICIAL Bernie Sanders For President 2016 Thread

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It ain't ignorance that causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so.
^^Now that's a pretty lazy way to look at life.

Actually, ignorance does cause problems, Ben. The rules for distributing delegates were set well before the election. I hear your boy Trump is willing to shatter your party because he didn't know anything about the way delegates get appointed when he began his race.

Bernie's biggest problem is the lack of time he's had for people to get to know him outside of his fairly small state. A few delegates difference from NH isn't going to make much of a difference when he's about 200 delegates behind.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I've been following developments at a nearby university with mixed feelings. Their engineering and science departments are growing and doing well while their ag and forestry departments have been under pressure. Liberal arts programs are treated as though they were a vestigial organ and simply allowed to exist as long as they are not a nuisance. In all cases the investment is in infrastructure and facilities. Investment in people to teach at the facility is a mixed bag with the most growth being in contract teaching, basically temporary workers. Because the professors are temporary, I question if they actually do more than just follow the program.

I actually don't think the best way to teach the up and coming knowledge work force would be as you suggest by an ad-hoc college formed by rogue professors who may be really good but would be hampered without the infrastructure provided by a funded university. For example, science and mathematics in today's world need to to be taught in fairly expensive facilities and use expensive equipment. At least at the junior-senior levels and up, they do.

Maybe liberal arts can be taught on-line but I still think the bringing together of people, both students and professors has as much value as the book knowledge. Learning how to share ideas, build relationships, work together, compete with each other are all things that I don't believe can be taught on line. Let's not forget that most business and political leaders come from this line of education, so we owe it to ourselves to give them as good an education as possible.

We, as in the people of my state and people in other states, are not investing enough in education. That's the real problem.

My jab was at the libertarian idea of the market setting prices. In universities, this creates a race to the bottom that cripples future growth for the economy.
At the moment, the power flows all one way. Turning professors into temporary workers is not a tolerable situation for the future of our workforce, either directly for knowledge workers themselves, nor their consumers.

My suggestion is that we turn the value preposition around,and put the professors where they belong, in the driver's seat.

I simply cannot agree with your assessment that math instruction needs expensive infrastructure. The research? Sure. NOT the instruction.
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
At the moment, the power flows all one way. Turning professors into temporary workers is not a tolerable situation for the future of our workforce, either directly for knowledge workers themselves, nor their consumers.

My suggestion is that we turn the value preposition around,and put the professors where they belong, in the driver's seat.

I simply cannot agree with your assessment that math instruction needs expensive infrastructure. The research? Sure. NOT the instruction.
Where will math-major students get instruction at leading edge math if not from a department that has a quality research department? Its true that undergraduate non-math majors don't need much in the way of infrastructure.

Agree that professors should have more say about how the university operates. Beginning with converting most contractors into professor-employees. But nothing can improve unless our attitude towards funding education at all levels doesn't change. We spend more on prisons than on education.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Where will math-major students get instruction at leading edge math if not from a department that has a quality research department? Its true that undergraduate non-math majors don't need much in the way of infrastructure.

Agree that professors should have more say about how the university operates. Beginning with converting most contractors into professor-employees. But nothing can improve unless our attitude towards funding education at all levels doesn't change. We spend more on prisons than on education.
Your points are as good and valid as mine, and I don't find them at all contradictory.

The symbolic protest of an entire university's knowledge knowledge base walking out the door would make some serious waves, however.

The kind of waves that would wash much needed change over the system.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Your points are as good and valid as mine, and I don't find them at all contradictory.

The symbolic protest of an entire university's knowledge knowledge base walking out the door would make some serious waves, however.

The kind of waves that would wash much needed change over the system.
Not disagreeing, just discussing viewpoints.

I wouldn't put my job (hypothetical) at risk without a union backing me and union legal representation to make sure the school and state administrators follow the law. And then, yes, if negotiations didn't resolve critical issues then a strike would be one of the options. Unionization at Oregon State and University of Oregon are just now beginning to have an effect and the largest problem looming is their survival. There is a ballot initiative in progress to dismantle professor-unions that were established just one or two years ago.

At this time, the unions in both schools are taking baby steps that can lead to more control of working conditions by the people that actually do the work. There is also the problem caused by disruption of tens of thousands of young people's education. Many of whom cannot afford to lose a term or more to a strike. So, yeah, a strike might shake things up but it could go haywire pretty fast given how weak the unions are at this time. But the unions can do a lot to prevent a such a strike if they are in a good negotiating position.

This all goes back to the erosion of union power which began in 1947 with laws that tilted negotiation power to big businesses and continues with increasingly negative attitudes towards union membership by the 94% of private sector workers who don't belong to a union. They view union workers as shirkers. Not true, but since when does the truth matter to some of these people.

And again, goddamit, Clinton isn't the person I'd like to see at the helm when labor rights are at stake.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
People walking out in support of their rights and jobs would be a powerful lesson those college kids would do well to learn.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
People walking out in support of their rights and jobs would be a powerful lesson those college kids would do well to learn.
I visited the Oregon State and University of Oregon's professor union websites and it seems that they are taking some really smart and savvy steps, such as taking a student oriented stance towards tuition, student fees and racial issues, testifying in Salem on bills that affect the professors as well as students and pro-active participation in budgeting for next year. I'm guessing that the administration too is trying to figure out how to work with the relatively new unions. It seems pretty healthy to me. Baby steps but progress nonethless.

So, a lot is being done in lieu of a walk out. Maybe you'd rather see it happen faster and I would like that too but the cart is moving and none of the participants want to upset it right now. Its not for an outsider like me to say what's right or wrong about what they are doing.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I visited the Oregon State and University of Oregon's professor union websites and it seems that they are taking some really smart and savvy steps, such as taking a student oriented stance towards tuition, student fees and racial issues, testifying in Salem on bills that affect the professors as well as students and pro-active participation in budgeting for next year. I'm guessing that the administration too is trying to figure out how to work with the relatively new unions. It seems pretty healthy to me. Baby steps but progress nonethless.

So, a lot is being done in lieu of a walk out. Maybe you'd rather see it happen faster and I would like that too but the cart is moving and none of the participants want to upset it right now. Its not for an outsider like me to say what's right or wrong about what they are doing.
Hey that's great for Oregon, now how about the other 49?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Hey that's great for Oregon, now how about the other 49?
yeah, how about it? What's going on in Colorado?

Oregon has its population of wing nuts but is pretty progressive compared to other states. Bernie is going to poll well over 60% next month.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I'm just yanking skys chain as I'm sure she is yanking at mine. Colorado's primary was over and done while Bernie's campaign was still looking good. He needed to do better than he did on March 15th. That's when his campaign went into the mode its in now.
Bernie represents our people's conscience, while Donald the Chump represents our ego.

Mrs Clinton represents... what?
 
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