Red1966
Well-Known Member
The link you provided to disprove it actually confirmed it. I quoted the pertinent line.Please explain to me how I've proven the anonymous writers of the gospels were contemporaries of jesus?
The link you provided to disprove it actually confirmed it. I quoted the pertinent line.Please explain to me how I've proven the anonymous writers of the gospels were contemporaries of jesus?
Pretty sure Peter was one of the 12 apostles. Wasn't Paul the prosecutor at Jesus trial? Never read much of the Bible, none since I was maybe 8 years old. Don't intend to restart now. When I was a young child, I was deadly ill. Whether it was a hallucination or a real event, I don't know, but an angel came to me and told me I would get better. I did start getting better. Today, I only have scar tissue in heart and a slight murmur to show for the illness I had. Was the hallucination/real event coincidental? I really don't know.Red, I'm troubled by your view that you think I'm a liar and arrogant. I actually don't try to be. I apologize if I've given you cause for offense.
I think I can clear up some of that right here.
I'm passingly familiar with Ehrman, the blog of the PhD professor in new testiment I linked to...
I think you're confusing the gospels with the epistles.
The first 4 books are called the gospels. They are the story of the life of Jesus. And if you read the rest of the NT carefully, no other books actually speak of or about the life of jesus.
Most of the NT is comprised of letters by Paul, a man that Christian tradition claims never even met jesus. He was converted by a vision of him on the Damascus road, correct?
There are two books attributed to Peter. They do not mention jesus as a living breathing human being. They discuss his message. But they don't discuss his life.
That's the distinction I've been talking about.
People just assume that Peter would have met jesus since he is a central figure in the gospels. But read those books, I know you have, or likely are to have, but read them again with this thought fresh in mind. 'Is this coming from someone who was an apprentice to his master, or someone claiming to have their knowledge by some other means.'
It doesn't say. Peters books never say things like 'and all those years I walked with him he taught me this and that.'
They read much more like Paul's books that could have only come from revelation becuase jesus, by tradition, died before Paul converted.
Now, the importat bit that is cusing our argument here. Peter does not serve as a contemporary source for the life of Jesus. Here is why. Becuase he never mentions jesus as someone who was alive. It's just not in there. There is no 'proof of life' so to speak in either Peters 2 books or Paul's 13.
The only books that could claim to be a source for the actual life of jesus are the gospels. And they're anonymous and far too late to be contemporary.
I don't think you can find me saying anywhere here that there is a photograph of the big bang.See, this is an example of your arrogance. I was perfectly clear. You added words to my statement to get it to mean what you wanted me to say, not what I actually said. I know about triangulation, you don't have to explain it to me. You claimed such photos existed, yet you now say me asking for one is absurd? I'm not a creationist, nor a Christian, but I'm pretty sure a man named Jesus existed. You provided a link to rebut that contemporaries wrote about him that actually confirmed that they did. You are to trying to argue shit I didn't say, because you have no argument to what I did say. Why should I provide a photo of Jesus? I never claimed one existed. You did claim a photo of the Big Bang existed.
It pisses me off when people can't rebut my statements and then try to pretend I said something different and argue with that.
Peter would have been a disciple. Paul was an apostle. The difference between a disciple and an apostle is that an apostle never met the person in question, while the disciple probably did.Pretty sure Peter was one of the 12 apostles. Wasn't Paul the prosecutor at Jesus trial? Never read much of the Bible, none since I was maybe 8 years old. Don't intend to restart now. When I was a young child, I was deadly ill. Whether it was a hallucination or a real event, I don't know, but an angel came to me and told me I would get better. I did start getting better. Today, I only have scar tissue in heart and a slight murmur to show for the illness I had. Was the hallucination/real event coincidental? I really don't know.
Red, Ive gone back and read every post you've made in this thread. I see no place where it looks like you're quoting anything from off site.The link you provided to disprove it actually confirmed it. I quoted the pertinent line.
An Apostle is a messenger.A disciple is a student.Peter would have been a disciple. Paul was an apostle. The difference between a disciple and an apostle is that an apostle never met the person in question, while the disciple probably did.
The Sanhedrin(sorta like a Jewish court) held the trial,not the Romans.Paul never met Jesus. The trial as described in the NT would not have been in line with what we know of Roman justice. IF you read acts, Paul was someone who persecuted the early Church. He was on his way to Damascus when he was converted by the spirt of Jesus. It made him blind and he met a man there who was a Christian and the rest is history.
Ehrman's not an atheist.He's agnostic.I have a hunch you might be referring to something I linked to the Ehrman blog. Ehrman is a half ally to this point. He is an atheist, but he believes in a historical jesus beyond doubt in his mind. I wouldn't have linked to him to prove that jesus is myth.
There are two quotes in Josephus,referring to Jesus.One is considered completely authentic by scholars,the other is acknowledged to have been redacted by later Christians.But even the questionable passage still mentions Jesus,despite the redactions.Christians point to two mostly, Tacitus and Josephus. The Josephus entry is widely thought to be a forgery, a later addition to his wording. He was a Jew in the service of the Emperor, he is supposed to have said something like this "And then a man named Jesus appeared, who did thousands of wondrous things beyond description, and a tribe of Christians so named after him exists to this day." That's not an exact quote, but a fair representation from memory. In all his works that's it, since he was writing about 60 years after Jesus execution, his source wouldn't have been independent even if he did write it, he would have just written what Christians were telling him.
Again.Jesus preached to small villages in backwater Judea.When the entire area was under Roman rule and on the brink of war.Tacitus wrote even later, and I cant remember, but its so late as to not be contemporary.
Independent verification of many figures less famous than Jesus was supposed to have been exists from this time and well before. There were people active who lived in that time and place who would have taken interest.
This was a time that shortly preceded the Jewish-Roman war.The Romans destroyed the 2nd temple and eradicated almost all of the Jewish populace.Nothing they might have written survives. Either they didn't write anything or it didn't survive. If they had written it but it didn't survive it is most likely because the 2000 years of Christian dominance since then condemned those writings.
Hey Dash...Very long time no see (UM). I did not know you are a Pot smoker, and I assumed you were a Xtian sympathizer not an actual Xtian.Historical analysis.
So,we are to exclude all other professionals,because of a perceived agenda,but allow Carrier's work? And you believe Carrier doesn't have an agenda?
His "accepted methods"(Bayesian analysis) is mathematical probabilities.Still requiring subjective input.
Carrier begins with the presupposition that Jesus never existed.In my opinion,Carrier's conclusion is no less tainted than the academic standard that he opposes.
The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a spiritual family.James is differentiated by the definite clause "the".When Paul speaks of other "brothers" he uses the indefinite clause "a".
It might seem like a small difference,but in linguistics,it's difference is the possessive.
Every time Paul makes a theological point he refers to Old Testament scripture (He does not talk of a Jesus that was on Earth with a mother & father). Mark the first Gospel is heavily allegorical using the Old Testament. The later Gospels heavily repeat verbatim from Mark, but correct geographical, and theological mistakes. Meanwhile the last Gospel John takes more free license, and heavily contradicts the earlier Gospels."knowable" and "absolute" are not words that fit well when discussing history.Barring the invention of time travel,the best explanation to historical data,at the present,are varying degrees of plausibility.
I'm not a traditionalist,but I have heard arguments in favor of James being from a previous marriage of Joseph.There was no word in Koine Greek for step-brother.
What it says in the New Testament (Matthew) is:Joseph wouldn't know her until she bore Jesus.
I'll let the Catholics (and others alike) defend Mary's perpetual virginity.My interests are with the historical aspects.
Who says it's "the best evidence"? Not I.
Dig long enough and hard enough and you'll find that it's not just one piece of evidence that places Jesus within history.It's the most logical explanation to the type of (internal evidence) and amount of (historical references) evidence that we do have.
When added together,the case of historicity becomes likely.Not "knowable",and certainly not "absolute",but again,history doesn't work that way.
Jesus preached to the poor,downtrodden,and illiterate of backwater Judea in the 1st century.Educated writers would have been scarce and papyrus expensive.
What we wind up with is oral transmissions of his life.(what could be considered as the Q gospel,though certain scholars disagree.But that's a discussion for another time and place).
It's not until the gospel writers and Paul that we see some form of textual notoriety for the life of Jesus.
The gospel writers would have,I think,attained their information from diasporic Jews returning home from Passover.Relaying second-hand tales of a traveling preacher/healer.Hence the variations in the gospels.
Paul brought the Roman world to attention with the inclusion of gentiles(uncircumcised).
Without these occurrences,Christianity may have not have risen to what would come.
It's a wondrous tale(though not without controversy).The story of a pious Jew who healed the sick,fed the hungry,and preached against the corruption of his day.Falsely accused of sedition.Scourged,ridiculed,and crucified for his practices.All the while,forgiving his executioners for their actions.
His tale was of such profound influence that it set a chain of events into motion that we see reflected in society still today.
If the story ended there it would be no less fascinating.But it was just beginning.
Wrong wrong wrong....Paul talks about Jesus as a poor,humble Jewish man;born under the law; from a woman.A descendant of David,Jesse,and Abraham.Preaching to the Jewish people.Crucified in Zion.
Sounds to me like he's talking about a living breathing human.
Show actual evidence of this. No assertions, and no apologetic websites.An Apostle is a messenger.A disciple is a student.
Jesus' inner circle was called both interchangeably.
Most churches refer to the original 12 followers as Apostles(capital 'A'),and Paul they designate as an apostle(small 'a').
"Disciple" was originally reserved for his followers before ,and soon after his death.Something like 70 disciples were sent out to nearby churches after the great commission.Now,"disciple" is used by most churches to mean any devout follower.
Bullshit! Julius Caesar gave the Jews special autonomy to conduct their own laws including capital punishment.The Sanhedrin(sorta like a Jewish court) held the trial,not the Romans.
The Sanhedrin found Jesus guilty of blasphemy.They were under the law at the time to not sentence a capital punishment,so they took Jesus to the Roman governor(Pontius Pilate) to be crucified.There's more to it than that,but you get the gist.
And yeah,the trial was anything but formal.
The only mention of Jesus outside of Xtian sources within the 1st century is in two different passages of Josephus. Xtians cling on to these with much desperation.There are two quotes in Josephus,referring to Jesus.One is considered completely authentic by scholars,the other is acknowledged to have been redacted by later Christians.But even the questionable passage still mentions Jesus,despite the redactions.
This is the quote:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
I've bolded the alleged interpolations.The rest of the passage is considered authentic by most scholars.
Josephus was a Jew,working for the Romans,writing Jewish history.Much of what we know of Jewish history in the 1st century comes to us through Josephus.
Considering the relationship of the Romans,Jews,and Christians at the time,it's a wonder there's any mention at all.
We have many writings from this period, and region that survived. Yet no contemporary mention of Jesus that the Gospels portray as uber famous.Again.Jesus preached to small villages in backwater Judea.When the entire area was under Roman rule and on the brink of war.
The Jews were awaiting their 'messiah' and there was no shortage of claimants.The people that would have eye-witnessed any miracles or deeds would have circulated it from village to village,but I can imagine any second or thirdhand tales would have been quickly dismissed under fear of charges of blasphemy.
It wasn't until after his death that word traveled beyond the smaller Jewish settlements.Once the inclusion of the gentiles began,his story spread like wildfire.
LOL! The Romans made examples of their enemies.This was a time that shortly preceded the Jewish-Roman war.The Romans destroyed the 2nd temple and eradicated almost all of the Jewish populace.
There is very little that would have survived.Throughout history,the Romans were very thorough in their actions.
Ever hear of damnatio memoriae? If they erased members of their own political elite from their history books,can you imagine how much would survive of their enemies?
Christianity began in secrecy.Amid two great powerhouses(Judaism and Rome's mystery religions) and a hellish war.Early Christians held assembly(ekklesia) at their own homes.Out of public eye for fear of persecution.
Not until the 4th century does it gain complete acceptance by the Roman Empire.
Do not get caught up on Pagan parallels (there's a reason for this), but there are some exceptions.
no odds are the guy did live .........just the stuff that would make him look like a normal person was hidden by the church rem the bible as u know it was not out until 312 ad .........the info they allowed in it has been proven right and wrong so many times i lost countWith all the similarities between the jesus story and lots of older religions and mythical figures there have long been those who have drawn those comparisons and said jesus was the myth too.
Becuase mainstream scholors have long held to the story that, son of god or not, there is a man behind the story of jesus. Why?
Academic inertia.
Western civilization descends from a very christian past. In fact, many who are professionals in this field have to sign statements of faith even today. That means their paychecks depend on holding to this traditional story.
With the professionals excluded, it had been left up to amateur historians to make this case. And it has shown.
Enter dr. Richard Carrier
He has peer reviewd books that have passed that process, using accepted methods to draw the conclusion that Jesus never existed.
I'm very impressed with his work.
No. The odds are the guy did not live. You are working off assumptions with no scrutiny to the evidence other than the magic parts.no odds are the guy did live .........just the stuff that would make him look like a normal person was hidden by the church rem the bible as u know it was not out until 312 ad .........the info they allowed in it has been proven right and wrong so many times i lost count
it comes down to something a person said to me long time ago
the church is the first lvl of control on the human race
the idea of heaven is a trick for the rich to keep acting the way they do .........if u go with out if u fight to live u will have a better life once u die becuase u did it right u fallowed our rules u get to enter in heaven
hell the idea of orginal sin is to pressure ppl into fallowing them
The Bible predicts the movie Shrek with a talking Donkey.Fairy tales.. snakes can't speak and walking on water isn't possible... and looking like a supermodel with blue eyes with fair skin from that region is hilarious at best
i think a man of that name lived .......do i think he did what he did no........No. The odds are the guy did not live. You are working off assumptions with no scrutiny to the evidence other than the magic parts.