LED Help - Please don't hate me ;-)

[giantsfan24]

Bonjour
You will need an hlg-240-1050 to do that!
As for hs size and spread...just use 1hs per cob and make something with aluminium L shape to carry all the hs to be able to have 1 cob per sq/ft but less hs to buy...a few inch less but!
CU

The efficiency of 6 cobs on a 240-1050 when a 5 cob on a 240-1400 setup is better makes the 6 cob setup kind of obsolete. I think I've come to the fact that if i'm going to run 6 cob's like I would like to run them, with the design I'd like to build, I'm going to have to use 2 drivers. I don't want to sacrifice efficiency, lumens, par watts and ppf with 6 cobs when I could run 5 more efficiency and more above the aforementioned specs. That just doesn't make sense to me you know?

 

[BOBBY_G]

Well if you can buy 5 x cxb3070s cheaper than 4 x cxb3590s, you'll get the same efficiency running slightly lower watts per chip.

Cutter for example. $194 us for 4x 3590s. $165 for 5x 3070.

some other ways to think about it:
(4) 3070 @ 1.4A =31968 lm @ 199.3W (160 lm/watt)
(4) 3590 @ 1.4A = 33580 lm @ 195W (172.1 lm/watt)

so both of those fit on a HLG-185-C1400, and the 3590 is a bit more efficient but lets just discount that 4W savings for now.

on a straight lumen basis, 4 on a driver at 1400 mA, it produces right about 5% more lumens

so lets put 5% on your product yield. At a very conservative 1GPW basis the 3070 would produce right about 200g. increasing this by 5% is 10 more grams per cycle at say $4/gram = $40 per cycle. Using the $US cost per cob above you would more than pay off the difference in cost of the 3590s in yield alone in 1 cycle, AND produce less heat AND save 4W for the rest of the products useful life AND produce an extra $200+ in product... every year

 

[Atulip]

some other ways to think about it:
(4) 3070 @ 1.4A =31968 lm @ 199.3W (160 lm/watt)
(4) 3590 @ 1.4A = 33580 lm @ 195W (172.1 lm/watt)

so both of those fit on a HLG-185-C1400, and the 3590 is a bit more efficient but lets just discount that 4W savings for now.

on a straight lumen basis, 4 on a driver at 1400 mA, it produces right about 5% more lumens

so lets put 5% on your product yield. At a very conservative 1GPW basis the 3070 would produce right about 200g. increasing this by 5% is 10 more grams per cycle at say $4/gram = $40 per cycle. Using the $US cost per cob above you would more than pay off the difference in cost of the 3590s in yield alone in 1 cycle, AND produce less heat AND save 4W for the rest of the products useful life AND produce an extra $200+ in product... every year

Or run 5 x cxb3070 on the hlg240 1400 instead of 4 x cxb3590 on the 240 1750. Of course the 3590 is more efficient and even at higher watts(around 25% more watts can be ran through the 3590 and still match efficiency of 3070s). If you can build a 3070 light using more chips at better efficiency for a cheaper or near the cost of 3590s, then it's more economical.

If you're talking more light equals more yield and accounting that into costs, then run 5 x 3070s per 4 x 3590s @ equal amps each. 5000 more lumens, or 14% more lumens, for 50w more overall @ 1.4A. The chips would be $27 cheaper per 4:5 ratio. (Cutter prices) at +14% more lumens to +14% product yield, that's +$112 per cycle, for $6 extra electricity. $500+ a year for the same/cheaper build cost if you can swing $30 more electricity.


I'm not hating on the 3590, it's still the top end chip, but if I can build something more efficient by using more of the 3070s vs less of the 3590s and overall build cost is still cheaper, then the value lies in the 3070s. If I needed more light then efficiency is less of a priority and I can build more light cheaper with 3070s.

I build based on my space needs and max budget, so overall product value is important. 3590s are 45% more expensive and only 26% better in the best scenerio(Equal efficiencies at nominal currents for both, but 26% more wattage for the same efficiency. (IE 126w 3590 is as efficient as 100w of 3070))

 

[BOBBY_G]

45% more expensive one time vs 26% better every crop that is.......

 

[Atulip]

45% more expensive one time vs 26% better every crop that is.......

Define better? I can use my 45% savings to run more 3070s at better efficiency. I can also just run more chips, more watts, and more light at a cheaper build cost.

45% more expensive doesn't mean, "hey I'll just save 45% on leds", it means "hey, I can afford 1.45x as many 3070s in my build, and run them 45% softer and get better efficiency than I'd have for the same build cost of 3590s" or "hey, I can afford 1.45x as many 3070s and I'll just run higher light output"

For example. Let's say schools starting soon and you need some pencils. You go to the store, see a 50 pack for $2, right beside it is 30 for $1. You get 66% more pencils with the big pack, but it costs 100% more.

Or a stoner example. So you want some smoke, you see some hash for $50 a gram, it looks great, we'll say its 50% THC. I could also take my $50 and get 3.5g of some 20% THC flower, then I get 100mg more THC overall for the same price.

In these examples, pencil quantity, or THC quantity is representing efficiency capacity. The ability to drive 3590s 26% more wattage for the same efficiency of 3070s.

Now some people may be getting the 3590s cheaper, just going by the cutter prices for leds only. If you add in an extra $5 expense each additional chip(holder, reflector, etc) $53 vs $38, and it's only 40% more expensive for 26% better efficiency capability. But that still means you could build a 14 x 3070 cob design(5-4-5 for example) at the same overall watts(and better efficiency and spread) as a 10 x 3590 cob design(3-4-3) at lower efficiency. Same build cost, and more efficiency with the 3070s softer.

And our build example:

10 x 3590s on a hlg 600 36 @ 1.67A each, 92,760 lumens for 585w or 158.7lm/w. Or 14 x 3070 on a hlg 600 36 @ 1.19A each, 92,916lumens for 580w or 160.2lm/w. Same build cost, but more light, less watts, better spread, less heat, more yield, more profit, etc. Actually with more chips spread out you'd see a drop of chip temp also, adding to efficiency. Factor the 3070s would be at 45℃ instead of 50℃ like the 3590s, now you get 93,700 lumens for 581w or 161.3lm/w. An extra 1000 lumens, 4 watts less, the same cost to build.

 

[BOBBY_G]

i guess it depends if you are $ limited, space limited, heat limited, driver limited, etc etc....

 

[giantsfan24]

Define better? I can use my 45% savings to run more 3070s at better efficiency. I can also just run more chips, more watts, and more light at a cheaper build cost.

45% more expensive doesn't mean, "hey I'll just save 45% on leds", it means "hey, I can afford 1.45x as many 3070s in my build, and run them 45% softer and get better efficiency than I'd have for the same build cost of 3590s" or "hey, I can afford 1.45x as many 3070s and I'll just run higher light output"

For example. Let's say schools starting soon and you need some pencils. You go to the store, see a 50 pack for $2, right beside it is 30 for $1. You get 66% more pencils with the big pack, but it costs 100% more.

Or a stoner example. So you want some smoke, you see some hash for $50 a gram, it looks great, we'll say its 50% THC. I could also take my $50 and get 3.5g of some 20% THC flower, then I get 100mg more THC overall for the same price.

In these examples, pencil quantity, or THC quantity is representing efficiency capacity. The ability to drive 3590s 26% more wattage for the same efficiency of 3070s.

Now some people may be getting the 3590s cheaper, just going by the cutter prices for leds only. If you add in an extra $5 expense each additional chip(holder, reflector, etc) $53 vs $38, and it's only 40% more expensive for 26% better efficiency capability. But that still means you could build a 14 x 3070 cob design(5-4-5 for example) at the same overall watts(and better efficiency and spread) as a 10 x 3590 cob design(3-4-3) at lower efficiency. Same build cost, and more efficiency with the 3070s softer.

And our build example:

10 x 3590s on a hlg 600 36 @ 1.67A each, 92,760 lumens for 585w or 158.7lm/w. Or 14 x 3070 on a hlg 600 36 @ 1.19A each, 92,916lumens for 580w or 160.2lm/w. Same build cost, but more light, less watts, better spread, less heat, more yield, more profit, etc. Actually with more chips spread out you'd see a drop of chip temp also, adding to efficiency. Factor the 3070s would be at 45℃ instead of 50℃ like the 3590s, now you get 93,700 lumens for 581w or 161.3lm/w. An extra 1000 lumens, 4 watts less, the same cost to build.

So what would you recommend for a 6 cob and drivers build that would out perform 5 3070's on a 240-2100? Based on either 3070's or 3590's.

 

[littlejacob]

Bonjour
You can't run 5 cxb 3070 on an hlg-240-2100!
Best imo is 4 cxb3590 on an hlg-185-1400b! Or 4 on an hlg-240-1750b!
CU

 

[giantsfan24]

Bonjour
You can't run 5 cxb 3070 on an hlg-240-2100!
Best imo is 4 cxb3590 on an hlg-185-1400b! Or 4 on an hlg-240-1750b!
CU

Hey buddy...Thanks for the advice. I really want to build a 6 cob light, 2 bars of 3 cob's each. There doesn't seem to be a configuration though, without using two drivers that is, that will beat the suggestion you make. Indeed, @Greengenes707 said that this would be a badass combo, and I agree. That said, a 5 cob light comes with design limitations for best results of the build/spread imo.

I know I should just shut up and go with the 5 cob light as in a 2.5 x 2.5 space, does it really matter, but what if I expand to 3 x 3 or larger? I really would like a 6 cob fixture and it looks like 2 drivers, which will hurt the efficiency, but it will do the job of the 400w HID I'm wanting to replace and better.

 

[Rahz]

If you really wanted a 6 cob lamp you can fit 6 cobs on a HLG-240H-C1050. Would only pull 220 watts but the increased efficiency would partially make up for the lost wattage.

 

[giantsfan24]

If you really wanted a 6 cob lamp you can fit 6 cobs on a HLG-240H-C1050. Would only pull 220 watts but the increased efficiency would partially make up for the lost wattage.

Yeah I saw it will hold 6.9, 3070's, I think, but would that replace a 400w HID system? It seems like of be better off with too much than not enough then use dimming to refine it.

 

[Rahz]

6 3070s at 1.05 = 218 watts and 38416 lumens
6 3590s at 1.05 = 213 watts and 41523 lumens
4 3590s at 1.75 = 248 watts and 42493 lumens
5 3590s at 1.4 amps = 245 watts and 44722 lumens
10 3070 at .7 = 236 watts and 44778 lumens
7 3590s at 1.05 amps = 248 watts and 48360 lumens

 

[giantsfan24]

6 3070s at 1.05 = 218 watts and 38416 lumens
6 3590s at 1.05 = 213 watts and 41523 lumens
4 3590s at 1.75 = 248 watts and 42493 lumens
5 3590s at 1.4 amps = 245 watts and 44722 lumens
10 3070 at .7 = 236 watts and 44778 lumens
7 3590s at 1.05 amps = 248 watts and 48360 lumens

wow..

So aren't I looking for 7K to 8K lumens per sq ft? Thank you for posting that. I've looked at those and haven't quite understood them till now.

 

[Danielson999]

wow..

So aren't I looking for 7K to 8K lumens per sq ft? Thank you for posting that. I've looked at those and haven't quite understood them till now.

No, because lumens are not what you are looking for.
If I had a square area like yours I would be putting 5 cobs in it. One in each corner and one dead center. 5 cobs@50w per cob over 6sqft using an HLG-240H-C1400.

CXB3070BD4000K 5 COBS @1.4A
6.25 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER
Cobs power watts: 249
Total voltage forward: 178
Total lumens: 43065
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 120
Total PPF: 542.4
PPFD based on canopy area: 928.59
Lumens per watt: 172.95

 

[Rahz]

wow..

So aren't I looking for 7K to 8K lumens per sq ft? Thank you for posting that. I've looked at those and haven't quite understood them till now.

7K lumens per foot from cobs is going to be a little over 1000 PPFD in your space so it would be a very strong light source.

 

[giantsfan24]

No, because lumens are not what you are looking for.
If I had a square area like yours I would be putting 5 cobs in it. One in each corner and one dead center. 5 cobs@50w per cob over 6sqft using an HLG-240H-C1400.

CXB3070BD4000K 5 COBS @1.4A
6.25 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER
Cobs power watts: 249
Total voltage forward: 178
Total lumens: 43065
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 120
Total PPF: 542.4
PPFD based on canopy area: 928.59
Lumens per watt: 172.95

That's exactly what @Greengenes707 said. Alright guys... It's sinking in lol! I'll just have to find a design I can visualize and create. Thanks @Danielson999 and @Rahz.

One question... How does the driver wattage figure into this? I get the amps but not how it correlates with watts of the driver.

Actually @Greengenes707 said bb bin @ 3500k

 

[Rahz]

Cob amps x volts = cob wattage x # cobs = total wattage. If it's under the wattage of the driver it should work, but it's good to check the total voltage from the cobs and make sure it's less than the max voltage on the C series drivers. I've added the 5 3070 option, all BB and 3590 is CD.

6 3070s at 1.05 = 218 watts and 38416 lumens
5 3070 at 1.4 amps = 249 watts and 40860 lumens
6 3590s at 1.05 = 213 watts and 41523 lumens
4 3590s at 1.75 = 248 watts and 42493 lumens
5 3590s at 1.4 amps = 245 watts and 44722 lumens
10 3070 at .7 = 236 watts and 44778 lumens
7 3590s at 1.05 amps = 248 watts and 48360 lumens

 

[giantsfan24]

Cob amps x volts = cob wattage x # cobs = total wattage. If it's under the wattage of the driver it should work, but it's good to check the total voltage from the cobs and make sure it's less than the max voltage on the C series drivers. I've added the 5 3070 option, all BB and 3590 is CD.

6 3070s at 1.05 = 218 watts and 38416 lumens
5 3070 at 1.4 amps = 249 watts and 40860 lumens
6 3590s at 1.05 = 213 watts and 41523 lumens
4 3590s at 1.75 = 248 watts and 42493 lumens
5 3590s at 1.4 amps = 245 watts and 44722 lumens
10 3070 at .7 = 236 watts and 44778 lumens
7 3590s at 1.05 amps = 248 watts and 48360 lumens

So the typical vf of 36 is used rather than the max of 39? And the amps would be whatever the driver is supplying?

 

[Rahz]

Check the datasheet, or spreadsheets for voltage at a particular current, and yes amps is whatever the driver supplies with the C series high voltage drivers.

 

[giantsfan24]

I think to understand this forum, it's necessary to know some basics of electricity...

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/voltage-current-resistance-and-ohms-law

There's value here for those of us who aren't that familiar.