wyteberrywidow
Global
reading ur stuff i want to get hydro soil is out
Al B. FAQt
- Thread starter Al B. Fuct
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wyteberrywidow
Global
i got the 400 watt already and i got a hundred to spend now. i got floro shop lights 2 40 watt tubes warm red and cool white for the seedlings now and when they get big enuff ill put the 400 on them i got a job and bills so i limit to how much money i spend a week but i have alot oscill fans around in the house and i could afford to get a sec hid next tues like a mh or another hps prob a 250 tho
wyteberrywidow
Global
that sog is good how many u think i can do under a 400
platypusmann
Well-Known Member
Al, since you are the resident expert on SoG, wanted to ask you a question......I am growing in a 4x4 ebb & flow w/40 gal. res, 3" rockwool/hydroton medium, under a 400 watt HID light (MH veg/HPS flower) and three 42 watt CFL's (450 watts actual??). I have all factors (temps, RH, VPD, nutes) well under control, and am thinking of starting a SoG. I currently grow 10 plants from seed each grow, and usually get 4 to 6 females that I flower out. When I have had 6, the 400w HPS was not toally adequate to flower them fully...I had alot of little low buds undeveloped on three plants, which is why I added the CFL's. ANYWAY...I am wanting to pull a mother from my current Ice grow (I love this strain) and start cutting clones and doing SoG, and I would like your learned opinion as to how many plants you think I could comfortably grow under my lighting. I can fit 36 nursery pots into my table, but think I may need more light to do THAT many. I dunno. Just wanting your advice. Thanks much for the help.
B
B
wyteberrywidow
Global
so i could do 30 plants in 3x2.5 closet sog and be happy
wyteberrywidow
Global
well i started germinating 2day, 2 diff strains. white widow and purps and cant wait to see how this goes i fig once they sprout ill put the shop on them 24/7 for about 1-2 weeks depending on how they look then ill use the 400 watt to veg or ill just get some cfls 2 add 2 the shoplight any advice????
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
OK, good plan so far, but I think you should opt for a flood system for watering. As I've said before:
New growers are best served by plants in pots of absorbent media like rockwool, Fytocell or perlite, watered by a flood system.
Floods are dead simple to set up and operate. Nothing to clog, one moving part, very little plumbing. Floods are much more forgiving of watering failure than any other method. If plants are in pots of absorbent media, there's enough water stored in the media to get the plants safely through a pump or timer failure for a day or so if you forget to look in on the system. Also, if anything leaks in a flood system, with the reservoir being below the tray, the leak is most likely to drip into the res tank.
I would not recommend DWC or aero for a first time grower. DWC in particular has an Achilles' heel. Since DWC keeps roots submerged, they rely on 24/7 airflow. A pump or power failure lasting more than a few hours can kill every plant in a DWC op if you don't have a spare air pump or backup AC power to run the air pump.
Advanced growers may prefer aero or DWC because they are able to get more oxygen to the roots than floods with plants in pots of absorbent media, but the production difference is fractional. Clay pellet media can also be used, which due to low absorbency and large air gaps between pellets, tolerates very frequent watering, thus approximating the performance of aero or DWC. Pellets don't hold much reserve water, but are more tolerant of pump/power failures than aero or DWC.
New growers need simplicity and they don't get any simpler than a flood system. Advanced growers will appreciate the portability of plants in pots. They can be picked up and moved around for maintenance or to put slow plants in better light positions.
Aside from being easy to set up and operate, tray-based flood systems are very inexpensive and allow flexibility in plant count and placement, as opposed to bucket based eg WaterFarm or other systems with a fixed number of sites for plants.
The only item you need buy from the hydro shop is a flood tray with hose fittings. Water & air pumps can come from an aquarium shop if the hydro shop's prices are too dear. A 400-450L/hr water pump is fine, I pay $11/ea for them. I get air pumps for about $12. The tray ought to be about $50 or less. The tray stand should be made of 25mm sq aluminium tube assembled with Qubelok plastic connectors, available at your local hdwe. You can save a little dough and make your own tray stand from timber as well as long as it does not get wet often. The res tank can be a cheap plastic storage tub from the dollar shop.
Your choice of medium depends on how you want to work in the op. Low absorbency media can be flooded often, improving root oxygenation but at the loss of a large backup supply of water in case of water pump/timer failure. Low absorbency media is harder to overwater than high absorbency materials like rockwool.
All good fitzy, thanks for that. I've added a couple of details just for clarity.
You could; I don't pack them in quite that tight in my op (I have 2.6 plants sq ft, 23 per 900mm x 900mm tray), but it's doable- you have to be aggressive with your pruning of branching on the lower part of the plants.
Sounds good so far.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
I don't think I'd let roots unsupported by media get more than an inch long or so before transplanting them into media, whatever the watering system. The risk of breakage is higher when they're longer, which if you break a large taproot, will cause transplant shock and set development back significantly- or worse.
You've obviously seen my concerns about keeping roots submerged without added oxygenation. Use of 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L of watering solution every 3-4 days will reduce the risk of root rot in the Hempy system. You might also see about getting a 55 gallon drum of Luck™ for use with the Hempy- I'm not sure you can make them work without quite a lot of it.
Bobster
Active Member
Thanks for responding so fast. I cant speak for others but, when i recently removed plants from my buckets. There was no roots in the bottom 2" of the 3 gal bucket. Obviously thats the resivour. I thought that was kinda strange but yet understandable in another way. thxI don't think I'd let roots unsupported by media get more than an inch long or so before transplanting them into media, whatever the watering system. The risk of breakage is higher when they're longer, which if you break a large taproot, will cause transplant shock and set development back significantly- or worse.
You've obviously seen my concerns about keeping roots submerged without added oxygenation. Use of 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L of watering solution every 3-4 days will reduce the risk of root rot in the Hempy system. You might also see about getting a 55 gallon drum of Luck for use with the Hempy- I'm not sure you can make them work without quite a lot of it.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Roots won't thrive where there's too much water and too little air. There were no roots formed in the part of the medium which is kept too wet. This is the main drawback of the Hempy.
It's better to keep the reservoir outboard from the growing container, as occurs in either recirculating or wick type systems. This allows maximum use of the volume of the container for rootmass while keeping none of the media too wet for roots or anaerobic enough to support pathogens. An outboard reservoir can be easily cleaned, oxygenated and sterilised. A wick system is only marginally more complex than a Hempy and has numerous advantages which make success more likely and yields higher.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
As a more general commentary, Hempys are one of those things (like CFLs for flowering and Aerogardens) that are popular in this and other online communities through preponderance, not necessarily because they do the job well. Because they're simple, cheap (well, Aerogardens ain't cheap) and easily available, a lot of 1st time growers are tempted to use them. Because a lot of people are yutzing with them, there may be an impression given that they work well. They really don't- and success with them is mixed. Some folks get them to work well; I suspect those are the people who are giving them less water at a time but more frequently, essentially treating them like a handwatered pot of media. This would reduce saturation in the bottoms and thus root probs. It rather defeats any self-watering feature, though.
LoganSmith
Well-Known Member
Sub........
gvega187
Well-Known Member
...way
yo al,
I was wondering what size container you prefer and why. I thought I read you use about a 6.5 by W x 6.5" H. Couldnt you fit about 60 of these in a 4 x 4 tray?
What if you used larger containers? would it help the roots being supported by a larger area of media?
basically i am overwhelmed by the variety of containers available.
wouldn't it be idea to find a 8" or larger W x 6.5" H?
thanks
yo al,
I was wondering what size container you prefer and why. I thought I read you use about a 6.5 by W x 6.5" H. Couldnt you fit about 60 of these in a 4 x 4 tray?
What if you used larger containers? would it help the roots being supported by a larger area of media?
basically i am overwhelmed by the variety of containers available.
wouldn't it be idea to find a 8" or larger W x 6.5" H?
thanks
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Welcome aboard, Logan. You're just in time for a small experiment.
I had some problems getting clones to set root as autumn was coming on. My clonebox is in an area which can get a little cold come winter. I had a roughly 6 week gap in getting new clones fed into my 4 tray SoG system. This meant that the plants that were in the room got longer to flower than usual. However, there's a limit to how long you can flower- after about 10-12wks or so, they can start to go hermaphroditic and make a mess of things.
This led to a couple of bumper harvests in a row. However, it also meant that a lot of plants came out at a time, emptying more than a tray's worth at a time instead of 23 every 2 weeks as usual. I fixed the clonebox to work at cooler ambient temps by blocking off its air intake, air intake is presently by the sloppy fit of the front cover door. Now it holds 28-30C even when the ambient air is 9C. I'll uncover the passive intake when ambient temps come up to 20C or so in the spring. Otherwise, the box just ran too cold, even with the thermostat set for 30C.
When I had the cloning sorted out, I made the mistake of filling all the empty space on the tables as quickly as I could instead of feeding in only 23 (1 tray's worth) every 2 weeks. I kept doing batches of cuttings even though they had nowhere to go.
What happens at one end of the pipeline affects the other. I stuffed up the 2-week rhythm of the op. So, this means that I have had clones idling in the clonebox under fluoros, in some cases for up to 6 weeks.
Clones won't be happy for more than a couple of weeks without nutes, so I started giving them a weak (400ppm) nute solution while they were still in the clonebox. These plants have formed some appreciable veg growth as a result, forming a couple of new nodes on each plant. This breaks the zero-veg time procedure normally used in this SoG op, where clones normally only are setting root in the low-light levels of the clonebox. Fluoros will cause appreciable growth if you give them long enough.
The plants that were idled in the clonebox have much more significantly developed root systems than those I usually put in to flower. It will be interesting to see how these plants develop compared to those which get chucked in to flower as soon as they have formed a few roots.
idled 2-6 weeks on 400ppm nutes, roots are formed fully through the
cubes (even on the TOP of the cubes), these are nearly rootbound and
show some browning from 'air-pruning'
normal root development, 10 days post cutting; the roots you see are
pretty much all they have
If there's any advantage to letting clones develop longer in the clonebox before flowering them, it's a simple matter to do more clones than I need to build up a stock to get ahead of the 23 plants usually needed to feed into the flowering area every 2 weeks.
the experimental batch of essentially pre-vegged clones with lots of roots
and fresh new growth on tips
plants in the tray beside the expeimental lot were put in to flower with
ordinary root development, about 14 days post cutting and are about 3wks
into flower- the expeimental lot are shown on planting day.
The veg growth of this mob was significant enough in their long wait that it was necessary to prune the branching on the idled clones, much as I normally do in wks 1 & 3 of veg, before putting these in to flower.
We'll see how they go, but I suspect that the greater rootmass development is going to be a plus. Downside is that these could get too tall. Clones normally stop gaining any vert height at 800mm-1m and stop throwing out branching by the end of wk 4 of flowering.
There's another batch in the clonebox which has also been idling for a while and also have been given nutes while there, so there will be one more batch behind this one that can also be used for comparison.
Plans at present are to return to the every 2 weeks cloning & harvesting sked. I've skipped doing the last scheduled batch of clones to try to get the plantflow back in order- and I may skip the next batch as well. I trimmed back the mums like I normally would when doing clones but all that nice fresh green growth is now feeding my local compost worms. Lucky bastards.
If I do find an advantage to idling them for a few weeks, it's easy to work that process in.
You're just in time for a small experiment. I had some problems getting clones to set root as autumn was coming on. My clonebox is in an area which can get a little cold come winter. I had a roughly 6 week gap in getting new clones fed into my 4 tray SoG system. This meant that the plants that were in the room got longer to flower than usual. However, there's a limit to how long you can flower- after about 10-12wks or so, they can start to go hermaphroditic and make a mess of things.
This led to a couple of bumper harvests in a row. However, it also meant that a lot of plants came out at a time, emptying more than a tray's worth at a time instead of 23 every 2 weeks as usual. I fixed the clonebox to work at cooler ambient temps by blocking off its air intake, air intake is presently by the sloppy fit of the front cover door. Now it holds 28-30C even when the ambient air is 9C. I'll uncover the passive intake when ambient temps come up to 20C or so in the spring. Otherwise, the box just ran too cold, even with the thermostat set for 30C.
When I had the cloning sorted out, I made the mistake of filling all the empty space on the tables as quickly as I could instead of feeding in only 23 (1 tray's worth) every 2 weeks. I kept doing batches of cuttings even though they had nowhere to go.
What happens at one end of the pipeline affects the other. I stuffed up the 2-week rhythm of the op. So, this means that I have had clones idling in the clonebox under fluoros, in some cases for up to 6 weeks.
Clones won't be happy for more than a couple of weeks without nutes, so I started giving them a weak (400ppm) nute solution while they were still in the clonebox. These plants have formed some appreciable veg growth as a result, forming a couple of new nodes on each plant. This breaks the zero-veg time procedure normally used in this SoG op, where clones normally only are setting root in the low-light levels of the clonebox. Fluoros will cause appreciable growth if you give them long enough.
The plants that were idled in the clonebox have much more significantly developed root systems than those I usually put in to flower. It will be interesting to see how these plants develop compared to those which get chucked in to flower as soon as they have formed a few roots.
idled 2-6 weeks on 400ppm nutes, roots are formed fully through the
cubes (even on the TOP of the cubes), these are nearly rootbound and
show some browning from 'air-pruning'
normal root development, 10 days post cutting; the roots you see are
pretty much all they have
If there's any advantage to letting clones develop longer in the clonebox before flowering them, it's a simple matter to do more clones than I need to build up a stock to get ahead of the 23 plants usually needed to feed into the flowering area every 2 weeks.
the experimental batch of essentially pre-vegged clones with lots of roots
and fresh new growth on tips
plants in the tray beside the expeimental lot were put in to flower with
ordinary root development, about 14 days post cutting and are about 3wks
into flower- the expeimental lot are shown on planting day.
The veg growth of this mob was significant enough in their long wait that it was necessary to prune the branching on the idled clones, much as I normally do in wks 1 & 3 of veg, before putting these in to flower.
There's another batch in the clonebox which has also been idling for a while and also have been given nutes while there, so there will be one more batch behind this one that can also be used for comparison.
Plans at present are to return to the every 2 weeks cloning & harvesting sked. I've skipped doing the last scheduled batch of clones to try to get the plantflow back in order- and I may skip the next batch as well. I trimmed back the mums like I normally would when doing clones but all that nice fresh green growth is now feeding my local compost worms. Lucky bastards.
If I do find an advantage to idling them for a few weeks, it's easy to work that process in.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Heh, when I wrote the lead post in the https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html thread, I misstated the size of the trays (and I can't edit that post). I am not generally accustomed to estimating using imperial measures and did so without checking. The trays are not 4'x4', rather 900mm x 900mm (about 2.7' or 2'8"something). They LOOKED like 4'x'4'!
There's only so much rootmass space that plants in a SoG op will need. The plants don't get very large. They'll need about 2L of volume at minimum (140mm x 140mm pots). My flowering plants don't get anywhere near rootbound in 175mm x 175mm (4L volume) pots, but very old mother plants (more than 8-12 wks old) can get pretty packed in- that's one of the reasons to replace them frequently.
Momentary lapse of reason? Only pots of that size available? Pot maker had a bunch of white ones to get rid of?
You're right, light to the roots is a bad thing and black plastics are better than white, but even what you see under normal lighting conditions as black plastics may not be totally opaque with HID lighting. Hold one up to an HPS light and you'll usually see a deep purple glow through it. However, with significant leaf mass above, shading them, black pots are usually good enough without any additional shielding.
gvega187
Well-Known Member
oh wow, I already bought and drilled holes in two 4 x 4 trays.
So a 4x4 is only about 1 foot wider than your trays altogether. I guess I wont worry about driving back and returning for 3 x 3's.
What kind of light will I need to properly cover a full table of 4 x 4. Will 1 1000 watt adequately cover the area?
Would two 600's be better suited for the job?
So a 4x4 is only about 1 foot wider than your trays altogether. I guess I wont worry about driving back and returning for 3 x 3's.
What kind of light will I need to properly cover a full table of 4 x 4. Will 1 1000 watt adequately cover the area?
Would two 600's be better suited for the job?
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