If veg NPK is 3-1-2 then wtf are most nutes no where near?

[Sativied]

Hey veg and bloom food is all a gimmick provide a good balance all the way thru and it will be happy happy

Exactly. There's no such thing as veg and bloom nutes from the plant's perspective.

was under the impression that a decent vegetative NPK for marijuana was 3-1-2 whereby nitrogen is the main ingredient, even 2-1-1 / 3-1-1 is recomended....

You might want to reconsider the source on that info.

They're all within the ballpark of marijuwana; Botanicare, Advanced, GH, Dyna-Gro, Canna, H&G, Blue Planet, Espoma, Miracle-Gro, amended soil -- it doesn't matter. Cannabis isn't a picky eater and it performs great with many NPK ratios. The key is dialing it in for your particular setup and style of growing.

+1.

It's any bottled nutes. Let me try to simplify this.

For example, NPK ratio of 3-3-3. That means that 3% of the volume is N, 3% is P, 3% is K and 92% is filler.

Now, your 3% N is broken down into concentration. The nitrogen concentration in that 3% could be 100% or 80% or whatever they chose to go with.

In other words, ratios are just how much content is in the mix. Concentration is how strong the nutrient in the ratio is.

so of that 3% Nitrogen up to 20% is not Nitrogen.

Wise man once said, do not try to simplify what you do not understand.

 

[az2000]

A veg nute of 30-10-20 is technically the same as a 3-1-2 in my eyes as they will both be mixed to the same PPM by me.

I think the 3-1-2 ratio in veg came from hydro growers? I think they run higher than soil growers? I don't know.

My ratios are in my sig. I do about 1.5 (to 2) - 1 - 1.8. If I go higher on N I get n toxicity.

 

[Connoisseurus Rex]

Exactly. There's no such thing as veg and bloom nutes from the plant's perspective.


You might want to reconsider the source on that info.

+1.


so of that 3% Nitrogen up to 20% is not Nitrogen.

Wise man once said, do not try to simplify what you do not understand.

That 3% nitrogen in the total volume of the bottle is 100% of your total nitrogen content. Get it? Good.

Out of that 100% of your nitrogen content, it may be diluted to an 80% strength. That doesn't mean 20% is missing. It's just a diluted concentration that fills 3% of the total volume. Got it? Good.

 

[Kingrow1]

The way this thred has run suggests that Potassium is more important than Nitrogen for a vegetative plant ....

Yikes!

 

[unwine99]

You sure because some top growers recomend Nitrogen to be higher than potassium and many recomend dyna gro but only the foliage pro for veg which is an exact 3-1-2 ratio. Uncle ben seems to swear by these Npk's and has issues with the more Cannabis spexific npk ratios.

This is me dialling it in hopefully.

I knew immediately where the 3-1-2 thing came from when I read your first post. Uncle Ben has also said that 1-1-1 from start to finish will do just fine, and 'you'll be successful if you treat cannabis like a tomato' -- many tomato nutrients are higher in P than N and higher in K than P.

I don't want to speak for the guy but what I've always taken from his advice, and his war on P, was/is not to be suckered into unnecessary and potentially harmful gimmicks such as PK boosters -- not that there is an exact ratio or method to growing.

And as far as the 3-1-2, I've used it from start to finish before and it works well.

 

[Sativied]

That 3% nitrogen in the total volume of the bottle is 100% of your total nitrogen content. Get it? Good.

Out of that 100% of your nitrogen content, it may be diluted to an 80%. That doesn't mean 20% is missing. It's just a diluted concentration that fills 3% of the total volume. Got it? Good.

I think you've been sucking too much on your vapoorizer... "Where did the all poo go?"

If the dilluted concentration fills 3% of the total volume, as you claim, then the non-dilluted concentration can't fill 3% of the total volume as well, as you claim. Besides that you suggest one can dillute the nitrogen "strength" (uhm... weight or volume?) without dilluting the entire contents of the volume, thus without changing the NPK again, and thus changing that 3%.

There's a limit to what you can put in 1 liter bottle. 1 liter of water for example, or roughly 1 kg of water+fertilizer...

In the old days NPK merely indicated the ratio, in premixed soil still the case, where it does not necessarily say anything about the amount of N, P, and K. In liquid/bottle nutes like the ones most use, if it says 3% nitrogen than 3% of the weight of the contents is nitrogen. The only way to dillute the contents of that bottle is to empty it a bit, remove some N, but also a bit of everything else, and then add water, which dillutes everything else too, and effectively changes the NPK ratio expressed in %, which it nowadays is. You simply cannot dillute that 3% N without changing the NPK.

Try this:
http://atami.eu/explanation-wv-and-ww/

 

[Kingrow1]

I knew immediately where the 3-1-2 thing came from when I read your first post. Uncle Ben has also said that 1-1-1 from start to finish will do just fine, and 'you'll be successful if you treat cannabis like a tomato' -- many tomato nutrients are higher in P than N and higher in K than P.

I don't want to speak for the guy but what I've always taken from his advice, and his war on P, was/is not to be suckered into unnecessary and potentially harmful gimmicks such as PK boosters -- not that there is an exact ratio or method to growing.

And as far as the 3-1-2, I've used it from start to finish before and it works well.

Shhh dont say UB too much or he'll magically apear!

My sources are far and wide from Clarke to the Bible its just UB writes a lot so i read a lot.

May i make the point that there is a vast difference between say a 1-1-1 and 2-1-1 and that is double the amount of nitrogen or 100% more. This will affect a plant differently and as far as i can see i get much better growth with 2-1-1 than 1-1-1 to the point it is very noticable.

Ive tried many npks and noted the difference, the higher the n in relation to p and k the better the growth (upto a certain point). N greens up a plant but with too much p and k i find its effects are limited.

Maybe UB might have somthing to say on the matter or maybe he will call me stupid for questioning this, who knows?

 

[Kingrow1]

I think you've been sucking too much on your vapoorizer... "Where did the all poo go?"

If the dilluted concentration fills 3% of the total volume, as you claim, then the non-dilluted concentration can't fill 3% of the total volume as well, as you claim. Besides that you suggest one can dillute the nitrogen "strength" (uhm... weight or volume?) without dilluting the entire contents of the volume, thus without changing the NPK again, and thus changing that 3%.

There's a limit to what you can put in 1 liter bottle. 1 liter of water for example, or roughly 1 kg of water+fertilizer...

In the old days NPK merely indicated the ratio, in premixed soil still the case, where it does not necessarily say anything about the amount of N, P, and K. In liquid/bottle nutes like the ones most use, if it says 3% nitrogen than 3% of the weight of the contents is nitrogen. The only way to dillute the contents of that bottle is to empty it a bit, remove some N, but also a bit of everything else, and then add water, which dillutes everything else too, and effectively changes the NPK ratio expressed in %, which it nowadays is. You simply cannot dillute that 3% N without changing the NPK.

Try this:
http://atami.eu/explanation-wv-and-ww/

Biobizz pre mix is 3-3-5 so i assume their soil is similar, high in Potassium...

 

[MisterBlah]

The short answer to OPs question is that it really doesn't matter. The same plants will grow in very different soil/water conditions. However, there is a lot of research that was simplified and trickled down to the consumer. This is where the idea of 3-1-2 or 1-1-2 or literally anyone saying "This blend is best" has come about.

The longer answer is that every company selling liquid fertilizer blends to the industry relies on the consumer being an idiot and not knowing shit(or just not caring). So, most market their products as some kind of magic beans that will make your plants grow the best. If it wasn't required by law, I'm sure most of these companies wouldn't tell you what the percentages of any of the nutrients in their blends are. Hell, House & Garden dilute their products so much that the micronutrient concentrations are below the concentration minimums that require labeling.

 

[Sativied]

Biobizz pre mix is 3-3-5 so i assume their soil is similar, high in Potassium...

If that was actually in reply to my post you missed the point. In soil it does not mean 5% of the soil is potassium, in bottled nutes it usually does mean 5% of the weight of the contents of the bottle is potassium.

The way this thred has run suggests that Potassium is more important than Nitrogen for a vegetative plant ....

What's important is providing complete nutrients with a reasonable ratio. Potassium is not more important than N, they are both important. It's important to realize there is not a specific NPK that is best, that gives most yield or something, the plants need "enough" (not too little, not too much) of each element, which is a range and not an exact amount.

 

[Connoisseurus Rex]

I think you've been sucking too much on your vapoorizer... "Where did the all poo go?"

If the dilluted concentration fills 3% of the total volume, as you claim, then the non-dilluted concentration can't fill 3% of the total volume as well, as you claim. Besides that you suggest one can dillute the nitrogen "strength" (uhm... weight or volume?) without dilluting the entire contents of the volume, thus without changing the NPK again, and thus changing that 3%.

There's a limit to what you can put in 1 liter bottle. 1 liter of water for example, or roughly 1 kg of water+fertilizer...

In the old days NPK merely indicated the ratio, in premixed soil still the case, where it does not necessarily say anything about the amount of N, P, and K. In liquid/bottle nutes like the ones most use, if it says 3% nitrogen than 3% of the weight of the contents is nitrogen. The only way to dillute the contents of that bottle is to empty it a bit, remove some N, but also a bit of everything else, and then add water, which dillutes everything else too, and effectively changes the NPK ratio expressed in %, which it nowadays is. You simply cannot dillute that 3% N without changing the NPK.

Try this:
http://atami.eu/explanation-wv-and-ww/

Why does straight chicken shit burn plants and rabbit manure doesn't? Rabbit manure has a higher npk ratio.

One is a hot fertilizer the other is a cold. One is rapid release and the other is slow release. There's your burn.

The same applies to hot and salt chemical fertilizers.

http://www.powerrich.com/fertilizer-info-center/truth-about-chemical-fertilizers/

Not all salts are created equal.

 

[Kingrow1]

The short answer to OPs question is that it really doesn't matter. The same plants will grow in very different soil/water conditions. However, there is a lot of research that was simplified and trickled down to the consumer. This is where the idea of 3-1-2 or 1-1-2 or literally anyone saying "This blend is best" has come about.

The longer answer is that every company selling liquid fertilizer blends to the industry relies on the consumer being an idiot and not knowing shit(or just not caring). So, most market their products as some kind of magic beans that will make your plants grow the best. If it wasn't required by law, I'm sure most of these companies wouldn't tell you what the percentages of any of the nutrients in their blends are. Hell, House & Garden dilute their products so much that the micronutrient concentrations are below the concentration minimums that require labeling.

H&G dont use the 3-1-2 or even anything close from the Npks i read of the bottle and yes they vastly exagerate their strengths.

 

[MisterBlah]

H&G dont use the 3-1-2 or even anything close from the Npks i read of the bottle and yes they vastly exagerate their strengths.

I wasn't claiming they used any ratio in particular.

 

[Kingrow1]

If that was actually in reply to my post you missed the point. In soil it does not mean 5% of the soil is potassium, in bottled nutes it usually does mean 5% of the weight of the contents of the bottle is potassium.

What's important is providing complete nutrients with a reasonable ratio. Potassium is not more important than N, they are both important. It's important to realize there is not a specific NPK that is best, that gives most yield or something, the plants need "enough" (not too little, not too much) of each element, which is a range and not an exact amount.

The answers im getting are that any npk will work, personally i find this isnt the case but hey, it was good to see both sides of the coin and know that most are running just as much if not more potassium than nitrogen in the veg stage, i guess potassium is the new nitrogen.

Personally im going back to the high nitrogen feeds and weaning myself of the potassium.

 

[unwine99]

Shhh dont say UB too much or he'll magically apear!

My sources are far and wide from Clarke to the Bible its just UB writes a lot so i read a lot.

May i make the point that there is a vast difference between say a 1-1-1 and 2-1-1 and that is double the amount of nitrogen or 100% more. This will affect a plant differently and as far as i can see i get much better growth with 2-1-1 than 1-1-1 to the point it is very noticable.

Ive tried many npks and noted the difference, the higher the n in relation to p and k the better the growth (upto a certain point). N greens up a plant but with too much p and k i find its effects are limited.

Maybe UB might have somthing to say on the matter or maybe he will call me stupid for questioning this, who knows?

Fair enough, I wouldn't try to persuade you against what you've found to be true in your own situation because that would be foolish. But no truths are absolute -- what works for you may not be as ideal for someone else in their environment, with their watering/fertilizing habits, and with their strains. I've actually found H&G Soil AB's 3-1-5 ratio to work better for me than Dyna-Gro's 3-1-2 in Pro-Mix but I would never go around saying that it's better or that DG is shit.

I can guarantee you one thing though -- none of these 'cannabis specific' nutrient companies are just pissing in the wind and seeing what sticks with regard to their nutrient ratios.

 

[Kingrow1]

Fair enough, I wouldn't try to persuade you against what you've found to be true in your own situation because that would be foolish. But no truths are absolute -- what works for you may not be as ideal for someone else in their environment, with their watering/fertilizing habits, and with their strains. I've actually found H&G Soil AB's 3-1-5 ratio to work better for me than Dyna-Gro's 3-1-2 in Pro-Mix but I would never go around saying that it's better or that DG is shit.

I can guarantee you one thing though -- none of these 'cannabis specific' nutrient companies are just pissing in the wind and seeing what sticks with regard to their nutrient ratios.

Thankyou and i dont disagree with anyones opinion here.

 

[Kingrow1]

If i may quote the grand master UB

'I've asked this question a million times with no "because" response, why is the typical cannabis specific "Grow" fertilizer always higher in K than N? They have it reversed, should be a 5-1-3 for good foliage production.'

 

[ttystikk]

That would be a veg Npk not bloom in my local hydro store, beginning to get suspect about these 'Marijuana SPECIFIC' ferts.





I fear that im following nute companies because they should know better but fastly realizing that they dont have a clue.

No, that's my bloom formula. Veg is closer to 3-1-3. It really doesn't need a hell of a lot of P.

 

[Kingrow1]

No, that's my bloom formula. Veg is closer to 3-1-3. It really doesn't need a hell of a lot of P.

No i am shocked that its your bloom fert as it looks more like a veg npk but i am seeing a lot using a more veg npk for bloom with not so much p and k but that just shows how much of a nitrogen loving girl Mj is.

 

[Kygiacomo]

it makes me ponder a interesting thought. Miracle gro gets bashed on every forum that i am on,but yet they have the 3-1-2 ratio in a few of their foods. they have the soluble 24-8-16 and a liquid 12-4-8. now idk if 3-1-2 is perfect or not. i just give my plants what they tell me they need. im not loyal to any one line. i will use organic,Mg,oscomote plus it dont really matter. i think the most important thing is finding something that u are happy with and can dial it in to meet your needs and give u piece of mind.