Do you believe Americans who work full time should earn a living wage?

[ttystikk]

I agree with almost everything in that article. I know the market is unfairly influenced but we're talking about two different things.
He's talking about politics and how the uber-large corporations have too much influence and power in politics which skew the economic landscape in their favor through manipulating policies. I agree with all of that.
I still don't think the government can mandate what a private business should pay their employees.
If you want to talk about restructuring policies which give the employee more bargaining power, i'm all for it. That's what I've been saying this whole time: bargaining power. Right now the minimum wage employee doesn't have it and that's not because of the market or policies. It's because there will always be someone to fill their shoes no matter how high or low the 'minimum' is.
If you double the minimum wage you would endanger countless small businesses and price minimum wage workers out of a job.

This is simply untrue. Everything about wages- especially minimum wages- is the result of policy set by government.

 

[NewtoMJ]

Yes, changes to corporate laws and perhaps other structural changes to the economy would be necessary to make this work. I'm just going with the thought experiment. I don't know enough to suggest how it can be done but I like the conversation. What's clear is the status quo is driving us into a bad place.

Yea it is. The reason wealth is so unevenly distributed, is because the power of our government system is so heavily shifted in the favor at a small group of individuals.

 

[UncleBuck]

Denmark has different laws than we do here in the United States. I don't know how comparable the two are in that sense.

yes, different minimum wage laws.

they get about $20 an hour there instead of $8. and the big mac only costs a few cents more.

derp.

I agree, but until our backwards corporate laws are addressed, I don't think things will change for the better.

you don't need to change corporate law, just minimum wage.

dee.

until we start looking at our corporate laws, talking about increases in wages and such are just going to get us nowhere.

no.

der.

 

[gunnar&carey]

Dam i wish i could smoke a bowl :/ fuckin parole thats another government entity that control alot of money if i made minimum wage id be back in prison from not paying the 400$ a month i have to pay for freedom

 

[sheskunk]

Sheskunk, I'm in no way castigating you for your post. You were trying to make a point and a funny. I get and appreciate the humor. But bear with me while I borrow your images for a bit. And kill the buzz -- sorry

The idea of a living wage means that nobody's daughter would have to sell their services to a fatass goat in order to live. It's a paradigm shift away from the threat of poverty to keep people working. If your daughter got into meth and found herself without good prospects after you kicked her out of your home, under a living wage policy, she could clean up and find a decent living doing whatever. Right now, an addict has two strikes against them -- the addiction and the lost time in her youth. Under today's policy, without great education, experience and good fortune, living wage jobs are difficult to find and your meth addicted daughter might not make it. Your joke is that an attractive woman without other skills can sell access to her vagina to rich fat men. But I'd rather that living wage jobs be available so that doesn't happen unless she loved that man..

You seemed to have missed the second half of the meme.

 

[Fogdog]

I agree with almost everything in that article. I know the market is unfairly influenced but we're talking about two different things.
He's talking about politics and how the uber-large corporations have too much influence and power in politics which skew the economic landscape in their favor through manipulating policies. I agree with all of that.
I still don't think the government can mandate what a private business should pay their employees.
If you want to talk about restructuring policies which give the employee more bargaining power, i'm all for it. That's what I've been saying this whole time: bargaining power. Right now the minimum wage employee doesn't have it and that's not because of the market or policies. It's because there will always be someone to fill their shoes no matter how high or low the 'minimum' is.
If you double the minimum wage you would endanger countless small businesses and price minimum wage workers out of a job.

Then you are suggesting stronger union laws and collective bargaining powers? That works well in concentrated industrial sectors but not so well in fragmented service sectors. I'm all for stronger unions without the corruption that took over the movement in the middle of the last century. I also think that a person devoting their life to a full time job that they like and that is needed in this society should not have live in poverty. I'm not suggesting what happened in Greece with government feather bedding of jobs.

 

[Fogdog]

You seemed to have missed the second half of the meme.

No , I didn't miss anything. The woman in the second photo was selling access to her vagina because she didn't have an education. This was a threat to women that if they didn't get a great education, they were going to have to allow old male goats to rut them.

I'm sorry about the buzzkill, I got the joke. It's just that jokes don't survive being explained.

 

[ttystikk]

This is a good point; there are a lot of people who really enjoy just being a chef at a great family restaurant. It's not setting the world on fire, but it should pay well and lead to a good retirement. Pride that comes with being respected is reflected in better work. Instead, I meet the guy who cooks at my favorite Mexican place at the low income medical assistance office. It need not and should not be this way.

Ask it another way; what exactly ARE the rich doing with all that money they're 'earning' off the backs of other people's labor? Responsible stuff, like silly fast cars for silly money, fast boats and big yachts... big parties. If the money were being invested wisely for the long term survival and prosperity of our kind, I think people would be happy to sacrifice. I'm not sure they'd feel that way about some asshole's THIRD wrecked Ferrari while on a coke binge.

Which brings me back to another point; this IS just one world, we all live here and we all pass the same one down to our children, be we rich or poor.

The way the economic aristocracy wants things, we're to chew up the world's resources at an ever increasing rate in order to satisfy growth. Is that what we all want? If not, what do we the People DO about it, beyond debating it on a pot forum?

 

[aTTicRaT]

No. I worked a menial job making minimum wage and up, like $5.15 and up from about age 15-20. I learned a trade moved up and was making $16-18/hr tops. That shit got old. I went back to school got a degree in civil engineering and I'm not going to divulge what I make but it is significantly more than $18/hr. If you can't afford the shit you buy/do/live in/smoke/shoot-up/etc. that's on you. If you want a bigger wage go to school get an education and I promise you things will come your way. I work with engineers that clear $250,000 a year all fucking day; granted they have 20+ years experience but even the 10 year vets are making six figures.

If you can't afford your house don't fucking live there.
If you can't afford your shiny ass rims don't fucking buy them.
If you hate your wage either get an education or evaluate your skills and if McDonald's is your only option deal with it.

People in my area were protesting McDonald's the other day claiming that they should be paid $15/hr. They were blocking a 6 lane road. If you want to make a good salary at McDonald's move up. Their managers get paid handsomely. It's fucking ridiculous, when did we become a nation of whiny little bitches?!

 

[see4]

If you can't afford your house don't fucking live there.
If you can't afford your shiny ass rims don't fucking buy them.
If you hate your wage either get an education or evaluate your skills and if McDonald's is your only option deal with it.

This.

People in my area were protesting McDonald's the other day claiming that they should be paid $15/hr. They were blocking a 6 lane road. If you want to make a good salary at McDonald's move up. Their managers get paid handsomely. It's fucking ridiculous, when did we become a nation of whiny little bitches?!

McDonald's managers get paid "handsomely". lol. I literally spit up my $7 Starbucks green tea reading this.

I guess it depends on the franchise owner, but many McDonald's managers make no more than $50,000 a year.

 

[Padawanbater2]

No. I worked a menial job making minimum wage and up, like $5.15 and up from about age 15-20. I learned a trade moved up and was making $16-18/hr tops. That shit got old. I went back to school got a degree in civil engineering and I'm not going to divulge what I make but it is significantly more than $18/hr. If you can't afford the shit you buy/do/live in/smoke/shoot-up/etc. that's on you. If you want a bigger wage go to school get an education and I promise you things will come your way. I work with engineers that clear $250,000 a year all fucking day; granted they have 20+ years experience but even the 10 year vets are making six figures.

If you can't afford your house don't fucking live there.
If you can't afford your shiny ass rims don't fucking buy them.
If you hate your wage either get an education or evaluate your skills and if McDonald's is your only option deal with it.

People in my area were protesting McDonald's the other day claiming that they should be paid $15/hr. They were blocking a 6 lane road. If you want to make a good salary at McDonald's move up. Their managers get paid handsomely. It's fucking ridiculous, when did we become a nation of whiny little bitches?!

Do you think 93% of economic growth should go to 1% of the population?

Is that OK with you?

 

[sheskunk]

No , I didn't miss anything. The woman in the second photo was selling access to her vagina because she didn't have an education. This was a threat to women that if they didn't get a great education, they were going to have to allow old male goats to rut them.

I'm sorry about the buzzkill, I got the joke. It's just that jokes don't survive being explained.

It wasn't really meant as a "joke". It was meant as a statement.

"Educate yourself and you can have whatever you want."

There are hundreds of thousands of millions of people out there earning a decent living while working for a living. Pick any city in the USA and there are as many nice houses are there are dumps. Someone owns the businesses that are paying minimum wage. They aren't special people. They are hard workers who have gained the skills needed to be successful in their life. The greatest part about living in this country is that that can be achieved by ANYONE. All you have to do is put forth the effort.

 

[sheskunk]

Do you think 93% of economic growth should go to 1% of the population?

Is that OK with you?

What are YOU doing to put YOURSELF in that top 1%?

 

[NewtoMJ]

yes, different minimum wage laws.

they get about $20 an hour there instead of $8. and the big mac only costs a few cents more.

derp.



you don't need to change corporate law, just minimum wage.

dee.



no.

der.

yes, different minimum wage laws.

they get about $20 an hour there instead of $8. and the big mac only costs a few cents more.

derp.



you don't need to change corporate law, just minimum wage.

dee.



no.

der.

80 cents more. That's outrageous.

 

[Fogdog]

I
If you double the minimum wage you would endanger countless small businesses and price minimum wage workers out of a job.

I'm really glad you said this. This myth comes up again and again. First of all, a minimum wage is just that, a minimum that is set by a govt entity. Nobody can work below this, so nobody can price minimum wage workers out of their job except for multinational companies working outside the country. Again, this is under the control of govt. We've allowed this to happen. We don't have to.

Another myth is that minimum wage causes unemployment. Not true. I'm giving the link below because I'm going to quote from it. http://www.swcollege.com/bef/policy_debates/increase_minimum.html

The conservative right as always use simple arguments. In this case they use a simple model taught in first year economics classes to make their argument, which is:

• the labor market is perfectly competitive,
• the minimum wage covers all workers, and
• worker productivity is unaffected by the wage rate.

Under these assumptions, the effect of the minimum wage is quite straightforward: the introduction of a minimum wage results in unemployment in those labor markets in which the equilibrium wage rate is below the minimum wage.

A better model looks at the benefit of employee retention, which includes efficiency due to experience, cost of hiring and training, benefit of employee loyalty. There are a number of theoretical models that use these concepts.. Among these are:

• monopsony models, and
• efficiency wage models.

Using reasonable factors that affect workforce efficiency, these models show that small to moderate increases in the minimum wage will have no adverse effects on unemployment (and may even lead to reduced unemployment).

A more detailed look at these studies are contained in the link (see above). The myth of increased unemployment due to a minimum wage is based upon an oversimplified look at the situation. A slightly more complex way of using reasonable factors that businesses know to be true results in positive results with the minimum wage..

 

[Fogdog]

It wasn't really meant as a "joke". It was meant as a statement.

"Educate yourself and you can have whatever you want."

There are hundreds of thousands of millions of people out there earning a decent living while working for a living. Pick any city in the USA and there are as many nice houses are there are dumps. Someone owns the businesses that are paying minimum wage. They aren't special people. They are hard workers who have gained the skills needed to be successful in their life. The greatest part about living in this country is that that can be achieved by ANYONE. All you have to do is put forth the effort.

Ok, so you were serious about threatening women that they were at risk of having to sell their vagina to nasty fat men if they didn't tow the line, work hard and have good fortune. I get it. Status quo. True red conservative.

Your way assures fat old men a supply of women that end up with the short end of the stick, so to speak.

I don't want to be that fat guy by the way -- I like to be intimate with a woman I can talk to, which means someone my age. The thing is, I reject your vision of an eternity of threatening people with poverty as if that's the only way to get them to succeed. In reality we get better from people than realized with threats and fear.. One can get more from people that are not afraid and that don't limit themselves to the sure path to success because failure is unthinkable. This discussion is about an alternative to the status quo.

 

[ttystikk]

I get the feeling that the freedom to follow my dream is a rare one indeed. I don't make a lot of money, but I'm doing what I really want to be doing. That's priceless.

 

[aTTicRaT]

Do you think 93% of economic growth should go to 1% of the population?

Is that OK with you?

No it's not that is heavily skewed and it is a huge problem. It's the top one percent that own 99 percent of the wealth like you say. Just think of it. About 55 years ago a CEO made 20 times what a common employee made working for the same company. Now it's around 1:750 or something absolutely absurd. To try an give everyone a "living wage" is on the verge of socialism. We just need to fix what is wrong with our system. We're nose diving capitalism in to the ground. The rich and greedy just get rich and greedier and the rest... well we just abide.

 

[tightpockt]

I

So how do you force a small business to DOUBLE it's biggest expense, which is labor and still stay competitive with the price points of wal-mart and the like? Even Mcdonnalds for instance..it's not like that would effect mcdonnalds the corporation that much percentage of profits wise... it will effect the franchise owner significantly however. Of course you can't really raise the price of product that much, mcdonalds is too expensive for what it is already. I went there yesterday and got a number 5 for $7.50ish,,,even if it went up .50 cents I'd start going to one of the million other places in my area. So either it comes out of the pocket of the consumer or the franchise owner and the market wont support a price raise so we're left with the franchise owner. Why should he take a $50,000 a year pay cut because the people who work for him didn't feel like going to high school?
Why do we act like the work someone puts in today is the only thing that matters? I hear things like "I work hard and deserve (we'll get into this word in a bit) to make x amount of dollars" well what about all of that other time you weren't doing shit while the guy next door was hitting the books, cultivating a plan, taking risks, etc..
Some of these sentiments are like people just popped into existence at 32 years old and found themselves in this predicament of being uneducated with 2 kids to take care of and that this somehow happened to them.
I'm pretty poor and it's all my fault. I didn't care about school, I fucked around in the Navy and didn't really apply myself. I spent my time chasing girls and smoking weed and now it's all catching up to me. I'd like to have more money and a higher station but I didn't do anything to get there and just ONCE I'd like to hear someone say the same thing.
Honestly, I'm not belly aching, it's an even trade because I value my free time more than anything but I did paint myself into a bit of a corner in terms of my marketability which limits my options.
Also, when did minimum wage entry level jobs turn into a career?! If that's the case I'll just scoop ice cream the rest of my life...I can get by on $600 a week if it means I don't have any other responsibilities.

 

[Fogdog]

No. I worked a menial job making minimum wage and up, like $5.15 and up from about age 15-20. I learned a trade moved up and was making $16-18/hr tops. That shit got old. I went back to school got a degree in civil engineering and I'm not going to divulge what I make but it is significantly more than $18/hr. If you can't afford the shit you buy/do/live in/smoke/shoot-up/etc. that's on you. If you want a bigger wage go to school get an education and I promise you things will come your way. I work with engineers that clear $250,000 a year all fucking day; granted they have 20+ years experience but even the 10 year vets are making six figures.

If you can't afford your house don't fucking live there.
If you can't afford your shiny ass rims don't fucking buy them.
If you hate your wage either get an education or evaluate your skills and if McDonald's is your only option deal with it.

People in my area were protesting McDonald's the other day claiming that they should be paid $15/hr. They were blocking a 6 lane road. If you want to make a good salary at McDonald's move up. Their managers get paid handsomely. It's fucking ridiculous, when did we become a nation of whiny little bitches?!

You are doing great. I think you'd do great in just about any system that enables people to benefit from hard work and want to achieve success. You worked your ass off, paid your dues and now you are seeing the fruits of you labor. Same as me. The way things are going now, fewer people are going to get the opportunity you had This thread isn't about limiting opportunity, its about limiting poverty.

Tell me, does a living wage necessarily limit anybody from achieving more?