Jonny's going ditching the synthetic nutes - here's why.

[chuck estevez]

Stow, some people like to accept what others say as truth, but people like you and I, we must verify and digest the information ourselves and arrive at our own conclusions; some call it a waste of time, I call it a way of life. I take nobody's word for truth because people are lazy and lie. The truth is always the truth and science never lies, only people.

https://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/Environment/organic farming and lake pollution.pdf

http://www2.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/farmer-story-little-rock-farmer-helps-minimize-fertilizer-runoff-cultivating

 

[jonnynobody]

Stow, maybe we should knock around the idea of putting together a truth in gardening project for the guys and gals of roll it up covering all of the bases that any gardener needs to know in a concise well written and easy to read design?

I know there are a lot of folks with solid proven methods for better gardening, but I think many of those folks with good information get frustrated by the uninformed gardeners that are simply helpless because they can't even be taught a better way. And then, good information doesn't get out to the people that need it. Maybe we should facilitate a thread with the assistance of a moderator to regulate the tone, and begin this truth in gardening project? Kind of like the best of RIU, on 1 page! I would absolutely read that thread

 

[Observe & Report]

Eh? Synthetic nutrients are water soluble, and therefor easily washed away with runoff/rain. Dry organic nutrients break down over long periods of time, and with a sufficient CEC level in the medium stay put until the plant needs them.

What you're saying is not true at all.

organic nutrients aren't water soluble? lol!

 

[chuck estevez]

Stow, maybe we should knock around the idea of putting together a truth in gardening project for the guys and gals of roll it up covering all of the bases that any gardener needs to know in a concise well written and easy to read design?

I know there are a lot of folks with solid proven methods for better gardening, but I think many of those folks with good information get frustrated by the uninformed gardeners that are simply helpless because they can't even be taught a better way. And then, good information doesn't get out to the people that need it. Maybe we should facilitate a thread with the assistance of a moderator to regulate the tone, and begin this truth in gardening project? Kind of like the best of RIU, on 1 page! I would absolutely read that thread

check out the links I posted.

 

[jonnynobody]

https://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/Environment/organic farming and lake pollution.pdf

http://www2.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/farmer-story-little-rock-farmer-helps-minimize-fertilizer-runoff-cultivating

Chuck, I cant' wait to read and digest that material. I don't have the time right now, but I do have time later today and I'll report back on my findings and what my take is on the material. Thanks for expanding my mind

 

[chuck estevez]

organic nutrients aren't water soluble? lol!

https://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/Environment/organic farming and lake pollution.pdf

 

[jonnynobody]

organic nutrients aren't water soluble? lol!

Less water soluble as they are in a less soluble form. It also depends on what kind of organic material you are using. Manure will obviously be much more water soluble (and acidic) than other organic matter like sea kelp and bone meal. You can't just group all organic materials into the same category as some are more soluble than others as that is what mother nature designed for us; it's the world we live in. Synthetic nutrients on the other hand are are man made to be water soluble with added chelators to make those elements bio available to the plant's root system for uptake. By their very nature, synthetic nutrients move more freely from point A to point B, so when watershed happens after a torrential down poor in a farm that utilizes synthetic nutrients, naturally those excess salts being water soluble will move very freely with the water to it's final resting place, which is usually a body of water. Now do you understand? Try to step out of that box you live in, there's a beautiful world out here to discover.

 

[chuck estevez]

I was about to jump on board with the organic guys, but then I read the study about dairy farms and how the poo and ferts combine to create a lot of the Nitrogen and Phosphorous that cause this damage.
Also, Since i use low P ferts and then my old dirt goes to the dump, does that help or hurt?

 

[jonnynobody]

I have to take care of some errands at the moment, but I will be back later this afternoon to continue this epic discussion

 

[st0wandgrow]

organic nutrients aren't water soluble? lol!

Are you suggesting that the kelp meal I use in my soil is as mobile as a synthetic liquid K supplement?

No, no it's not.

 

[jonnynobody]

I was about to jump on board with the organic guys, but then I read the study about dairy farms and how the poo and ferts combine to create a lot of the Nitrogen and Phosphorous that cause this damage.
Also, Since i use low P ferts and then my old dirt goes to the dump, does that help or hurt?

I'm not trying to categorize myself as all organic or all synthetic. I think every situation has a need and sometimes that need can be addressed by a product that is not organic and I'm okay with that. As a whole though, I like the more natural approach because it's worked very well for mother nature for hundreds of millions of years, so I'll assume she knows what she's doing; I'm just trying to understand her process. Once I can achieve that goal, I can then determine which synthetic products are worthwhile products. Simple cost benefit analysis, that's all. This is all for the purpose of learning, I'm not having a debate over what method is best, this is a discussion about the versatility and possibilities that organic gardening has to offer, and so far, I'm psyched! Organic farming seems like a lot more fun than just measuring watered down nutrient salts and pouring it into a bucket for watering. I'm just ready for something a little more exciting and organic gardening seems exciting to me.

 

[jonnynobody]

Are you suggesting that the kelp meal I use in my soil is as mobile as a synthetic liquid K supplement?

No, no it's not.

Be careful stow, using logic on illogical people is dangerous; you just might enlighten somebody.

 

[jonnynobody]

Okay, I"m officially out of here. See ya guys / gals later on today.

The only request I have is please keep it civil. We are contributing to truth only, no bullshit or name calling.

 

[st0wandgrow]

I was about to jump on board with the organic guys, but then I read the study about dairy farms and how the poo and ferts combine to create a lot of the Nitrogen and Phosphorous that cause this damage.
Also, Since i use low P ferts and then my old dirt goes to the dump, does that help or hurt?

That link you posted is relevant to the discussion how? Unless as a society we decide to ditch milk, then cow shit is going to happen. The distinction they made between "organic" (hijacked term) dairy farm, and non-organic is that the cows on an organic farm have to be allowed to roam freely in pastures where their poop is easily washed away in to water supplies. Non organic farmers are allowed to keep their cattle under one roof and collect the poop and haul it away, thus not contaminating water supplies.

 

[Rrog]

Observe and report, as Stowe pointed out, there is all the difference in the world between organic runoff and chem fert runoff. Primarily- the organic nutes are bound to humus. they don't leach

 

[st0wandgrow]

I was about to jump on board with the organic guys, but then I read the study about dairy farms and how the poo and ferts combine to create a lot of the Nitrogen and Phosphorous that cause this damage.
Also, Since i use low P ferts and then my old dirt goes to the dump, does that help or hurt?

I don't think you read the link you posted chuck. If you read the whole thing it makes a strong case for the use of organic fertilizers.

 

[st0wandgrow]

Observe and report, as Stowe pointed out, there is all the difference in the world between organic runoff and chem fert runoff. Primarily- the organic nutes are bound to humus. they don't leach

Exactly. Mineralization takes place at a very slow rate. Organic soils hold on to the nutrients

 

[jonnynobody]

Observe and report, as Stowe pointed out, there is all the difference in the world between organic runoff and chem fert runoff. Primarily- the organic nutes are bound to humus. they don't leach

I was waiting for you to chime in Rrog, good to have you here. I both welcome and look forward to your contribution to this thread.

 

[jonnynobody]

Observe and report, as Stowe pointed out, there is all the difference in the world between organic runoff and chem fert runoff. Primarily- the organic nutes are bound to humus. they don't leach

Don't use complicated words like humus Rrog, you might scare some of the uninformed and you just might shatter the world of illusion they built around themselves

 

[jonnynobody]

Exactly. Mineralization takes place at a very slow rate. Organic soils hold on to the nutrients

Dammit stow, now ya got me reading on "mineralization". My wife is gonna kick my ass if I don't get these errands done! Ya gotta stop expanding my mind lol