IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!

[PetFlora]

I am sorry, but I havent read your thread until you had asked. There was a lot (of good stuff) to read. If your spydr covers a 4x4 foot space and it costs 1,000, isnt that more expensive than the 150 per light cost of the Apollo? Wasnt that some of the "good things" about the Apollo?

The 2 simply cannot be compared

The problem is understanding not all leds are equal- not by a long shot

First it's not about watts, it's about intensity over and under the ACTUAL coverage

What we are looking for is how many umoles/m^/sec the panel puts out

You will never find that info on any cheap china light

 

[JazzyLady]

The 2 simply cannot be compared

The problem is understanding not all leds are equal- not by a long shot

First it's not about watts, it's about intensity over and under the ACTUAL coverage

What we are looking for is how many umoles/m^/sec the panel puts out

You will never find that info on any cheap china light

Why cant you compare items by their price? \

Im fully aware that not all LEDs are equal. But.. I dont know how they are different.

For many people, price plays a part in making a decision about what to purchase, so I dont understand why you feel items can not be compared by price when there is a price difference? In an earlier post it was suggested that running the LED's would be less costly in the long run.

 

[kmog33]

I believe it was because I was new.

And because I was new, I had no idea these lights could be customized.

I am very very clear about what the problem is with this light. It will not work in the configuration it was sold to work in. Let that sentence sink in. I am not saying the light doesn't work, I am saying it will not work in the configuration it was sold. It was sold to be the sole light in a 4 x 4 foot space.

When I first wrote about this light in this forum, I did not know that they could be customized. All I knew was what I personally experienced first hand. My first hand experience was.. this light is crap and will not work. Now.. I realize that statement was not all together correct... because I have more information.

What is correct is.. this light will not work in the configuration it was sold to work in.

The reason it does not work in the current configuration is because in a 4 x 4 foot space it made ALL the plants grow (leaning over and growing) into a 2 x 2 foot space. The entire grow area could not be used at all because the plants all wanted to be directly under the light. They would not grow up to the light, they all grew bent way over, trying to get to the light. For a 4 x 4 foot space, this doesnt work! If I had four of the lights, then it would be enough of a light print that the plants wouldn't try to grow in a bunch.

I still think that Apollo should hold some of the blame because they are selling to resellers who are not informing the general public about these lights and the expectations one should have about these lights. I expected the light to work in the set up it was sold in. It doesnt.

Did you expect it to cover a 4x4? I feel like you need at least 600 watts of anything to cover a 4x4. I have an 330 watt actual pull led thats supposed to cover a 4x4 and supplement an 8x8. Do i actually believe it could do that? Nope. But it does about a 3x3 and that pretty damn good for around 300 watts. Led companies overtalk their lights. That hows it's been forever. But if you got a light that pulls around 200 watts and expected it to cover a 4x4 because a website told you it would....well i guess youd be as frustrated as you are about it. But i bet next tome youll do some way better research before believing a company that is trying to sell you a product.

Btw i dont think really any light company gives you accurate information about what their lights can actually do. They all exaggerate, just some more than others.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[kmog33]

The 2 simply cannot be compared

The problem is understanding not all leds are equal- not by a long shot

First it's not about watts, it's about intensity over and under the ACTUAL coverage

What we are looking for is how many umoles/m^/sec the panel puts out

You will never find that info on any cheap china light

Do you have any real experience with leds other than your bml they gave you? Because i constantly see you telling people to buy bml but isnt yours pretty much brand new and you havent even run a full grow yet? And if its actual pull is 600 watts it better cover a 4x4 or it would totally defeat the purpose of led as a 600 hps covers a 4x4 and probably penetrates better. I now have a very expensive led that pulls around 300 watts thatll cover a 3x3 which is good, and a 180 or so watt led that will cover a 2x2x3deep due to lenses that cost a fraction of my other led. Not trying to start anything im just curious as to why you push bml so hard to everyone and just kind of put down almost all other opinions about leds on here.

Let me know if im wrong about when you got it but i feel like i read about you getting it recently in one of these threads.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[az2000]

Why cant you compare items by their price?

I understood him to mean that price can be misleading. For example, some companies (like HydroGrowLED, aka "scammie Cammie") charge a fortune for what are essentially rebranded Chinese lights. They construct a compelling web page with a lot of "secret sauce" hyperbole, and suddenly a $150 light is sold for $400. The $150 might have been an acceptable value compared to buying a legitimately high-priced light. But, at the inflated price an A51, Hans, Onyx would be a better price. Maybe a Grow Northern (new design using Rebel spectrum).

The learning curve for LEDs is steep. The market isn't uniform (no standard for comparison. California Lightworks, for example, inflates their PAR values with a footnote saying they are "adjusted PAR."). Newbies tend to buy price and hyperbole. They get good results from inflated lights. But, it's unclear if it's the light or the dedication of someone motivated to spend that much on a light. I.e., did they apply the same "spare no expense" to other areas of their grow?

Im fully aware that not all LEDs are equal. But.. I dont know how they are different.

3w or 5w. Reflector (concentration) or white backboard (diffusion). Secondary lenses in addition to primary. But, what I think "pet" was getting at is flux or lumens per watt. An Epi is less expensive than a Cree, but the Cree (particularly the higher bin part numbers) will produce more light per watt.

If you get into that level of detail, it could be possible for you to replace your Apollo's LEDs with any spectrum you want. You could make your own A51 RW light.

Which gets back to the "secret sauce" hyperbole. You'd never know which spectrum to use if lights like A51, Grow Northern, Astir, Onyx, et. al. didn't publish the exact spectrum they use. A51 even publishes the part numbers of the Crees and drivers they use. When you buy a "secret sauce" light, you invest money without being able to assess *where you are*. You can't make informed choices about how that light compares to another "secret sauce" light because neither of them tell you how much blue, red, white, etc. It's just a shot in the dark if you try various of these lights. You might find one that works well, but you'd never know if it's because of it's ratio of red to deep red, etc.

For me, I stay away from any light that doesn't publish its spectrum/ratio. Unless it's a direct-from-Factory deal which eliminates the Cammie middleman. For example, at TopLED's prices I could buy one even though they play the "secret spectrum" game too. A balancing act (principle vs. pragmatism).

 

[JazzyLady]

Did you expect it to cover a 4x4? I feel like you need at least 600 watts of anything to cover a 4x4. I have an 330 watt actual pull led thats supposed to cover a 4x4 and supplement an 8x8. Do i actually believe it could do that? Nope. But it does about a 3x3 and that pretty damn good for around 300 watts. Led companies overtalk their lights. That hows it's been forever. But if you got a light that pulls around 200 watts and expected it to cover a 4x4 because a website told you it would....well i guess youd be as frustrated as you are about it. But i bet next tome youll do some way better research before believing a company that is trying to sell you a product.

Btw i dont think really any light company gives you accurate information about what their lights can actually do. They all exaggerate, just some more than others.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

Thanks for letting me know what your feelings were about this.

I didnit purchase the light directly from a light company. I have stated, and corrected the statement that I got this as part of a KIT.

You are assuming that I only contacted one vendor. Incorrect. I contacted multiple online vendors that sold kits.

I'm sure you are aware that there are many different claims for many different lights that are all different sizes. So how does anyone actually KNOW what a light really does until you get it home?

I didnt just read a website, I called different online vendors as well. What I "believed" is that the company I chose was offering a KIT for sale that did what it stated. I went with a KIT because I believed that purveyors of these sorts of things would have the KIT sized correctly.

Did you read the part where I have said over and over I am NEW? Telling a newbie "That's how its been forever" truly isnt helpful at all.

You've twisted up what I said. I jerked the light because it was supposed to be sized for a 4 x 4 foot space. When it was hanging in the tent, all the plants in the tent began bending way over to the center of the tent, trying to get directly under the light. You come to your conclusion as to what that means. To me, it means that the light is going to continue to make the plants do that until all the plants are coned up in the middle trying to get to the light. Thats how they were growing, thats the shape they were going into.

I had read several positive comments about HG. No more, no less than other companies trying to sell a kit.

 

[PSUAGRO.]

I understood him to mean that price can be misleading. For example, some companies (like HydroGrowLED, aka "scammie Cammie") charge a fortune for what are essentially rebranded Chinese lights. They construct a compelling web page with a lot of "secret sauce" hyperbole, and suddenly a $150 light is sold for $400. The $150 might have been an acceptable value compared to buying a legitimately high-priced light. But, at the inflated price an A51, Hans, Onyx would be a better price. Maybe a Grow Northern (new design using Rebel spectrum).

The learning curve for LEDs is steep. The market isn't uniform (no standard for comparison. California Lightworks, for example, inflates their PAR values with a footnote saying they are "adjusted PAR."). Newbies tend to buy price and hyperbole. They get good results from inflated lights. But, it's unclear if it's the light or the dedication of someone motivated to spend that much on a light. I.e., did they apply the same "spare no expense" to other areas of their grow?



3w or 5w. Reflector (concentration) or white backboard (diffusion). Secondary lenses in addition to primary. But, what I think "pet" was getting at is flux or lumens per watt. An Epi is less expensive than a Cree, but the Cree (particularly the higher bin part numbers) will produce more light per watt.

If you get into that level of detail, it could be possible for you to replace your Apollo's LEDs with any spectrum you want. You could make your own A51 RW light.

Which gets back to the "secret sauce" hyperbole. You'd never know which spectrum to use if lights like A51, Grow Northern, Astir, Onyx, et. al. didn't publish the exact spectrum they use. A51 even publishes the part numbers of the Crees and drivers they use. When you buy a "secret sauce" light, you invest money without being able to assess *where you are*. You can't make informed choices about how that light compares to another "secret sauce" light because neither of them tell you how much blue, red, white, etc. It's just a shot in the dark if you try various of these lights. You might find one that works well, but you'd never know if it's because of it's ratio of red to deep red, etc.

For me, I stay away from any light that doesn't publish its spectrum/ratio. Unless it's a direct-from-Factory deal which eliminates the Cammie middleman. For example, at TopLED's prices I could buy one even though they play the "secret spectrum" game too. A balancing act (principle vs. pragmatism).

Your right, CLW is using "adjusted" par like that lumigrow bullshit..............never noticed that before, good eye.

always up to growers house to help us out on the real #s............doing us a big service IMO.

 

[JazzyLady]

Do you have any real experience with leds other than your bml they gave you? Because i constantly see you telling people to buy bml but isnt yours pretty much brand new and you havent even run a full grow yet? And if its actual pull is 600 watts it better cover a 4x4 or it would totally defeat the purpose of led as a 600 hps covers a 4x4 and probably penetrates better. I now have a very expensive led that pulls around 300 watts thatll cover a 3x3 which is good, and a 180 or so watt led that will cover a 2x2x3deep due to lenses that cost a fraction of my other led. Not trying to start anything im just curious as to why you push bml so hard to everyone and just kind of put down almost all other opinions about leds on here.

Let me know if im wrong about when you got it but i feel like i read about you getting it recently in one of these threads.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

I do not have a BML. I have an apollo 6. I dont know why you are saying I am pushing BML when I know nothing about it at all. Are you getting posters mixed up?

What I have discovered since being on this thread is that the Apollo 6 is supposed to be customizable. What I was told from my vendor was vastly different. I pulled the Apollo light because of the way the plants were growing under the light. Plants grow up. When the light is right, and all things are right, plants grow up to the light.

Maybe I am still not explaining it. This light is as if you have a 3 inch spotlight in your space and all the plants are trying to get into this three inch circle of light. I turned the pots around, and it made no difference, the plants just bent over the opposite direction. If I had left the light on the plants they would have grown into a cone. They were NOT growing directly up. I took the plants out of the tent, hung the light over them, same thing, every plant went to the circle of light. I changed the Apollo to a T5. Within hours, all the plants turned up for the T5.

The plants WANT the Apollo light. Thats not the problem. The problem is this light was supposed to work in a 4 x 4 foot space. It does not. It would work in a 2 x 2 foot space.. maybe. Because of this, I would need to get 3 more of these lights, to cover the same space a 1000w bulb with an XL hood would cover.

Because the plants grow so hard to this light, they have to have enough light to grow under. This light does not provide that space. Because the plants are growing so hard to the light, thats whats making them grow into a circle of light. Putting the T5 up eliminated the light cone and the plants stopped bending into a circle to the light.

 

[kmog33]

Thanks for letting me know what your feelings were about this.

I didnit purchase the light directly from a light company. I have stated, and corrected the statement that I got this as part of a KIT.

You are assuming that I only contacted one vendor. Incorrect. I contacted multiple online vendors that sold kits.

I'm sure you are aware that there are many different claims for many different lights that are all different sizes. So how does anyone actually KNOW what a light really does until you get it home?

I didnt just read a website, I called different online vendors as well. What I "believed" is that the company I chose was offering a KIT for sale that did what it stated. I went with a KIT because I believed that purveyors of these sorts of things would have the KIT sized correctly.

Did you read the part where I have said over and over I am NEW? Telling a newbie "That's how its been forever" truly isnt helpful at all.

You've twisted up what I said. I jerked the light because it was supposed to be sized for a 4 x 4 foot space. When it was hanging in the tent, all the plants in the tent began bending way over to the center of the tent, trying to get directly under the light. You come to your conclusion as to what that means. To me, it means that the light is going to continue to make the plants do that until all the plants are coned up in the middle trying to get to the light. Thats how they were growing, thats the shape they were going into.

I had read several positive comments about HG. No more, no less than other companies trying to sell a kit.

How many watts is this led thats supposed to cover a 4x4? All i was saying that after researching real experience with these lights, not contacting the companies that are lying in the first place about what their lights can do, you would probably fairly easily have figured out your light would not work for a 4x4 even though the company and or website you ordered from said it would. We all make mistakes. Im not upset here you seem to have taken my comment as offense which it was not meant. But there are a bunch of growers here with led experience you couldve asked if your light would cover the space, which seems to be your biggest problem with it from your post. That it wouldnt cover a 4x4...i mean you stated it a bunch of times over and over in your post. And that you were pissed at the company for saying it would when you couldve asked around and found that it would not. Thats all. Sorry your upset about your purchase.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[kmog33]

I do not have a BML. I have an apollo 6. I dont know why you are saying I am pushing BML when I know nothing about it at all. Are you getting posters mixed up?

What I have discovered since being on this thread is that the Apollo 6 is supposed to be customizable. What I was told from my vendor was vastly different. I pulled the Apollo light because of the way the plants were growing under the light. Plants grow up. When the light is right, and all things are right, plants grow up to the light.

Maybe I am still not explaining it. This light is as if you have a 3 inch spotlight in your space and all the plants are trying to get into this three inch circle of light. I turned the pots around, and it made no difference, the plants just bent over the opposite direction. If I had left the light on the plants they would have grown into a cone. They were NOT growing directly up. I took the plants out of the tent, hung the light over them, same thing, every plant went to the circle of light. I changed the Apollo to a T5. Within hours, all the plants turned up for the T5.

The plants WANT the Apollo light. Thats not the problem. The problem is this light was supposed to work in a 4 x 4 foot space. It does not. It would work in a 2 x 2 foot space.. maybe. Because of this, I would need to get 3 more of these lights, to cover the same space a 1000w bulb with an XL hood would cover.

Because the plants grow so hard to this light, they have to have enough light to grow under. This light does not provide that space. Because the plants are growing so hard to the light, thats whats making them grow into a circle of light. Putting the T5 up eliminated the light cone and the plants stopped bending into a circle to the light.

I quoted pet flora not you for this comment im pretty sure...

Yep just checked i wasnt directing this at you.
Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[kmog33]

Ive made the same mistake before though it's cool

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[JazzyLady]

I understood him to mean that price can be misleading. For example, some companies (like HydroGrowLED, aka "scammie Cammie") charge a fortune for what are essentially rebranded Chinese lights. They construct a compelling web page with a lot of "secret sauce" hyperbole, and suddenly a $150 light is sold for $400. The $150 might have been an acceptable value compared to buying a legitimately high-priced light. But, at the inflated price an A51, Hans, Onyx would be a better price. Maybe a Grow Northern (new design using Rebel spectrum).

The learning curve for LEDs is steep. The market isn't uniform (no standard for comparison. California Lightworks, for example, inflates their PAR values with a footnote saying they are "adjusted PAR."). Newbies tend to buy price and hyperbole. They get good results from inflated lights. But, it's unclear if it's the light or the dedication of someone motivated to spend that much on a light. I.e., did they apply the same "spare no expense" to other areas of their grow?



3w or 5w. Reflector (concentration) or white backboard (diffusion). Secondary lenses in addition to primary. But, what I think "pet" was getting at is flux or lumens per watt. An Epi is less expensive than a Cree, but the Cree (particularly the higher bin part numbers) will produce more light per watt.

If you get into that level of detail, it could be possible for you to replace your Apollo's LEDs with any spectrum you want. You could make your own A51 RW light.

Which gets back to the "secret sauce" hyperbole. You'd never know which spectrum to use if lights like A51, Grow Northern, Astir, Onyx, et. al. didn't publish the exact spectrum they use. A51 even publishes the part numbers of the Crees and drivers they use. When you buy a "secret sauce" light, you invest money without being able to assess *where you are*. You can't make informed choices about how that light compares to another "secret sauce" light because neither of them tell you how much blue, red, white, etc. It's just a shot in the dark if you try various of these lights. You might find one that works well, but you'd never know if it's because of it's ratio of red to deep red, etc.

For me, I stay away from any light that doesn't publish its spectrum/ratio. Unless it's a direct-from-Factory deal which eliminates the Cammie middleman. For example, at TopLED's prices I could buy one even though they play the "secret spectrum" game too. A balancing act (principle vs. pragmatism).

Seriously, do you think anyone new is going to know this? Do you think anyone who is new is going to have a clue to even ask about something like this? When you are new you are looking for a total solution to grow because ... well.. YOU ARE NEW... and probably have no one to talk to, no one who knows how to grow. Posters keep failing to remember that this was the original problem... I was NEW and didnt know to ask!

You already know this stuff, so its easy for you to tell someone "what they should have done." I wrote about my experience as a newbie getting an Apollo light. Apparently everyone in this thread popped into it knowing every detail about LED's.

I am not applying a "spare no expense" to my grow. What I am doing is trying to make a balance of four different things. My four things are 1. No odor, 2. Lowest power bill possible. 3. good THC 4, highest possible yield. I had a budget I was trying to stay in. By buying the kit that has a light in it that does not fit the size of the space it was supposed to fill, I have to have more lights.

With a light that will only make plants grow in a 2 x 2 foot space, and having a 9.5 x 12 flowering room, its beyond ridiculous. My original plan was four tents in this space.

 

[az2000]

How many watts is this led thats supposed to cover a 4x4?

An Apollo 6 is 15 3w pcs per module, 6 modules. That's a max 270w, but driven at 60% gives 160w. [1]

That's only 10w per sq. ft. for a 4x4 space. A minimum of 20w is necessary. 30 is better. Some people who run Top LED Mars II do 40-50w sq ft. But, that's without a reflector. A lot of defused light. A light like A51's with more efficient LEDs could be in the 30w sq. ft. range and produce results like 40w. (Apples and oranges, etc.).

IMO, an Apollo 6 is good for a 2x3' area. For a 4x4 tent I'd use 4 Apollo 4s (29w sq ft) for more flexibility. Or, better yet, one of those, and 3 of some other things (just to get exposure to different brands, spectrum, etc. Maybe an A51 RW, Advanced Diamond and something else.

[1] My Apollo 4 is 15 3w pcs per module, 4 modules. That's 180w max. My Kill-A-Watt meter shows 115w actual draw (63%).

 

[JazzyLady]

I quoted pet flora not you for this comment im pretty sure...

Yep just checked i wasnt directing this at you.
Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

Opps! lol.. sorry!

 

[az2000]

Seriously, do you think anyone new is going to know this?

I was trying to help you not be new. Should I stop replying to your posts if all it does is remind you of the past?

 

[kmog33]

Opps! lol.. sorry!

Youre good haha

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[JazzyLady]

IMO, an Apollo 6 is good for a 2x3' area. For a 4x4 tent I'd use 4 Apollo 4s (29w sq ft) for more flexibility. Or, better yet, one of those, and 3 of some other things (just to get exposure to different brands, spectrum, etc. Maybe an A51 RW, Advanced Diamond and something else.

[1] My Apollo 4 is 15 3w pcs per module, 4 modules. That's 180w max. My Kill-A-Watt meter shows 115w actual draw (63%).

Thats what I am saying! Exactly! This light MIGHT be good for a 2x3 foot area, but you would need 4 of them to get coverage! One of them simply makes the plants grow into a cone of light.

 

[JazzyLady]

I was trying to help you not be new. Should I stop replying to your posts if all it does is remind you of the past?

You rock.

Being new sucks dollars! lol...

Im thrilled for this line of conversation, because now I am thinking that I could possibly get the Apollo changed over to different LED's and put it on a light bar. Im just getting antsy because I am running out of time. I have to have a solution in less than two weeks.

 

[kmog33]

An Apollo 6 is 15 3w pcs per module, 6 modules. That's a max 270w, but driven at 60% gives 160w. [1]

That's only 10w per sq. ft. for a 4x4 space. A minimum of 20w is necessary. 30 is better. Some people who run Top LED Mars II do 40-50w sq ft. But, that's without a reflector. A lot of defused light. A light like A51's with more efficient LEDs could be in the 30w sq. ft. range and produce results like 40w. (Apples and oranges, etc.).

IMO, an Apollo 6 is good for a 2x3' area. For a 4x4 tent I'd use 4 Apollo 4s (29w sq ft) for more flexibility. Or, better yet, one of those, and 3 of some other things (just to get exposure to different brands, spectrum, etc. Maybe an A51 RW, Advanced Diamond and something else.

[1] My Apollo 4 is 15 3w pcs per module, 4 modules. That's 180w max. My Kill-A-Watt meter shows 115w actual draw (63%).

Ya i have a vipar like that 4 modules and it has 5w leds with 90 degree lenses and it does a 2x2 i wouldnt trust it do do a 3x2 though the footprint is pretty intense and direct because of the lenses. I have it next to my 330 watt led in my 3x5 tent and i guess its almost doing 3 feet. I think were about agreed on the space that Apollo will cover. But i would never think that 180 actual watts could cover a 4x4 thats just crazy talk, maybe as supplemental light but not as a standalone .

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[az2000]

Im thrilled for this line of conversation, because now I am thinking that I could possibly get the Apollo changed over to different LED's and put it on a light bar. Im just getting antsy because I am running out of time. I have to have a solution in less than two weeks.

If I were you, I would use your Apollo 6 right now, supplemented with t5s. Work out the watts per sq. ft. Your Apollo should be around 160w actual. If your t5s are "ho" and 4' long, they are 54w per tube. You can add up the watts and divide by 16 sq ft (tent space).

If your t5s are 6000k temperature, you can buy bulbs that are in the 3200k range. Put about 50-70% in your t5 fixtures during flower. Maybe 20-30% during veg. Be sure to buy HO tubes if your fixtures are HO.

That will give you time to investigate other LEDs, defer additional expense, etc.