Apache AT600 led vs 1000w HPS Blue Dream Grow

[Greengenes707]

missed this^^^.................So, who said it again that they where probably using mid-bin nichia's????Supra?? someone buy him a beer
NASA don't like math...............oh wait
Yeah I guess.................just a little shocked at the wattage draw for the current fixture, progress for me means efficiency gains NOT increasing the power draw....IDK

Their use chips that are 300lm@700ma. That is the best I can get out of them. I know that doesn't actually mean anything, but I believe them because I see the results.

Follow me through this general train of thought...
Photons translate to biomass. Spectrum dictates how that biomass will be distributed/formed, but long story short, more light(photons) translate to more buds(rhetorical, I know)
HPS is roughly 36% efficient(brand new) at producing photons. The LED's that are in panels like AT and a51 are say 38-40%. And when when we get into top bin cxa's are in the <43% range at the currents most are using them....

So at best on paper, led's are only producing maybe 10% more photons/watt. So 900w:1000w. Doesn't seem very cool when looking this way.
Now start to factor in directionality of the source, lenses, , and then spectral efficiencies last. and maybe we are at 600w worth of led's can get the the same/more/enough photons to the canopy as a 1000hps.

I do think that a improved design could get the at600 down closer to 600w even. But hey, it's not my company...I just like what they do more than anyone else. But I have just started to dabble in DIY, so AT watch out...hahah.

Okay I give up. That statement has me flummoxed. What does that mean? If you could give me ten minutes and my head will be in the right place.

To some extent that would be true but with GG matching the HPS with the lower wattage version I would imagine the higher wattage production version is designed to surpass the thouie. Just a guess though.

Thanks chaz.

Haha...I don't really know what that was supposed to say...I think "1000w replacing" or "actually replacing"....something along those lines. Sometime auto correct helps...other times it's no where close...And most of the time I am high enough that things like that get missed either way.

always a possibility but would hurt their rep IMO

maybe its naivety but have always from the conversations on here held the view that Apache and their stuff were just that next step up in LED

They use top performing everything. People will always try and pick at something. Apache thanks they have something and telling everything will get hem totally copied...in reality it's just not worth the $$$ for other companies to copy, but AT has a mind of their own.

Results speak louder than anything and my AT's speak pretty loud . Only a matter of time before we regally see at600 pumping out poundage in a bunch of people's gardens.

 

[PSUAGRO.]

To some extent that would be true but with GG matching the HPS with the lower wattage version I would imagine the higher wattage production version is designed to surpass the thouie. Just a guess though.

But the old AT "600" is a 1 to 1 1000w hps replacement according to GG, commercial ops are set-up around thouies===just change out for the same yield . The wattage should GO DOWN as nichia's chips improve and energy savings GO UP=== Op's aren't looking for yield increase ATM with led tech, rather same performance as HID with reduced energy costs IMO.


In the end GG showed and "growed" with an awesome run........................I'm just talking, as usual

always a possibility but would hurt their rep IMO

maybe its naivety but have always from the conversations on here held the view that Apache and their stuff were just that next step up in LED

well top bin "white" nichias aren't cheap......................700w+ of them @ a profit per panel===== well you do the math......that ^^52000 lumens from a predominantly "white" panel is quite telling or outdated specs on the sheet.....IDK

EDIT...............^^^ GG answered my questions while "swyping" this shit..........nevermind

 

[DANKSWAG]

i wish i was opening one of them bad boys....
what was wrong with that vid?

Nothing wrong, just wanted to know what his favorite was since he has tested so many.

DankSwag

 

[hyroot]

I don't think more ig's is better a better option. Cmh maybe but still just theory...someone sack up and do a side by side.

i get good results with ig's. very comparable.. I'm only running 2 overhead. 8 x 5. I haven't yet put the vpar back up. Its been too hot. plus on pain killers from dental work... From my experience with cmh. Ig's get denser buds. trichome development is the same and bud size too... I think an ig combo could go up against and at600. You only ran the 1 gal batch with it once on here..

you did a great job with at 600... bye bye hps lol

 

[jonniefive]

Great Thread Green! lots of good info and contributions for fellow growers.
I've only skimmed over, haven't found the results yet even.

I've never used LEDs, I have however seen the amazing difference in yield based on which hood you use on an HSP bulb.

My friend tried the following a few years back, not 100% sure on the exact numbers.

This was measured in a 4x4 area under every light, 6 cloned plants, 6 identical HPS bulbs, 3 hammertone reflectors (the ones that come with bulb/ballast/reflector sales) and 3 radiant (hydrofarm) reflectors. 1 light per plant, plants all turned 1/4 turn ever 12hrs, custom hydro setup, moderate topping and training, GH nutes, all in same room.
IMO he did an exellent job of isolating the reflector as the only difference.
The radiant 6 or 8 (non-hammertone) by hydrofarm will give you around 15-20% increase in yeild over pretty much any other hood, maybe even more over a raptor. I checked the lights myself with a photon meter, the footprint with the radiant had a much higher and more evenly dispersed reading at 12", 18" and 24".

Keep up the good work, love the info so far!
SUBBED... back to reading

 

[Greengenes707]

Great Thread Green! lots of good info and contributions for fellow growers.
I've only skimmed over, haven't found the results yet even.

I've never used LEDs, I have however seen the amazing difference in yield based on which hood you use on an HSP bulb.

My friend tried the following a few years back, not 100% sure on the exact numbers.

This was measured in a 4x4 area under every light, 6 cloned plants, 6 identical HPS bulbs, 3 hammertone reflectors (the ones that come with bulb/ballast/reflector sales) and 3 radiant (hydrofarm) reflectors. 1 light per plant, plants all turned 1/4 turn ever 12hrs, custom hydro setup, moderate topping and training, GH nutes, all in same room.
IMO he did an exellent job of isolating the reflector as the only difference.
The radiant 6 or 8 (non-hammertone) by hydrofarm will give you around 15-20% increase in yeild over pretty much any other hood, maybe even more over a raptor. I checked the lights myself with a photon meter, the footprint with the radiant had a much higher and more evenly dispersed reading at 12", 18" and 24".

Keep up the good work, love the info so far!
SUBBED... back to reading

Thanks.
Which is the reason I have the raptor...it's the best. As well as my solis tek and hortilux. Top of the line hps setup.

I have researched hoods pretty deeply. And with my own meter on 10's of different hoods. The raptor has the best spread:intensity that I found. What I saw with the radiant is that it doesn't get the spread. My caps were just as good when I was measuring.

Do you have the charts or links to show this increase. That can come out to be almost 1/2lb difference.

 

[jonniefive]

Thanks.
Which is the reason I have the raptor...it's the best. As well as my solis tek and hortilux. Top of the line hps setup.

I have researched hoods pretty deeply. And with my own meter on 10's of different hoods. The raptor has the best spread:intensity that I found. What I saw with the radiant is that it doesn't get the spread. My caps were just as good when I was measuring.

Do you have the charts or links to show this increase. That can come out to be almost 1/2lb difference.

Unfortunately, I did not record these result, will check with the person who actually did this in one of his grow rooms. So its purely anecdotal for now.
If everything goes well and I am able to get my own full scale grow (I can have up to 6 rooms with 6 plants in each legally here) I will be running tests with lighting.
As soon as I can afford to buy 6 or 12 more light and have space to put them, I will run my own comparison.. maybe a year or so

Raptors do certainly give a nice even spread, just not the concentration of light I'm looking for. LEDs may very well be as good or better than HPS in some or most cases including mine, will not know until I test it out. We have pretty shitty grow stores here, they rarely have lights setup if they even have the lights you want... and they charge full retail.

EDIT: Only numbers I can give you now are the current yields, which are 450g-550g on average per plant or per light (didn't seem to matter if you do one plant per pot or lots [SOG} no difference in yield just quality of flowers) I haven't seen any strains drop below 400 and twice OG kush went in the 650 range. All done with 600w HPS bulbs, only spend 8 weeks in flower no matter what and hand trimmed bare (NO Leaf).

 

[Greengenes707]

Unfortunately, I did not record these result, will check with the person who actually did this in one of his grow rooms. So its purely anecdotal for now.
If everything goes well and I am able to get my own full scale grow (I can have up to 6 rooms with 6 plants in each legally here) I will be running tests with lighting.
As soon as I can afford to buy 6 or 12 more light and have space to put them, I will run my own comparison.. maybe a year or so

Raptors do certainly give a nice even spread, just not the concentration of light I'm looking for. LEDs may very well be as good or better than HPS in some or most cases including mine, will not know until I test it out. We have pretty shitty grow stores here, they rarely have lights setup if they even have the lights you want... and they charge full retail.

EDIT: Only numbers I can give you now are the current yields, which are 450g-550g on average per plant or per light (didn't seem to matter if you do one plant per pot or lots [SOG} no difference in yield just quality of flowers) I haven't seen any strains drop below 400 and twice OG kush went in the 650 range. All done with 600w HPS bulbs, only spend 8 weeks in flower no matter what and hand trimmed bare (NO Leaf).

In the end it's all the same base amount of photons(ppf), just distributed differently, and with very slight other losses. So as long as you are hitting the ideal intensity(800-1200µmols) then next thing to worry about is how close/far are your outer intensities to that ideal goal(lower is acceptable for outer edges). It's easy to hit center intensity...much harder to bet into the perfection zone on the outer edges. With multiple lights it is very attainable to reach >700µmols at the cross over and no less anywhere else. That is my goal...now what lights/hood/whatever are going to meet that is how I think about it.

If concentrated intensity is what your looking for...then an OG hood by growrite is the best in the business...kills the intensity of any other hoods, but coverage is lacking comparatively to the raptor and XXL's.
Also raptors and other big hoods are really meant for 1K's, not 600's(except the double bulbed raptors). 600hps you want a smaller hood. So I don't know if we are even talking same league. Check out the OG hood if you haven't already...it's a vertical mounted AC hood by the way, which is why it gets the intensity it does.

So what is your set up...or planned setup? Sounds like it has some kind of special need(s).

 

[Cococola36]

My friend has luxor hoods and they are prob the best I've ever seen, personally, and I've owned xxl and seen raptors...But owning og hoods now which i do like, if I could go back I would get luxor. They have great intensity annnd a very nice even spread for 4x4 being a big square hood. Best all around I'd put my money on luxor (literally they aren't cheap), with raptor still best for spread purposes trying to cover a bit more than 4x4ft.

 

[Greengenes707]

Seems that the luxor gets the spread that the go doesn't.

Got a Growlite OG, Luxor, and Magnum Ocho today for testing. Used a parmeter. Measure the value at 11 spots in a 4x4 square.

Growlite did the worst. Very high par values (1910) right below the bulb but extremely low on the perimeters(125-200). I suppose they'd be good if you were gonna be stacking them right up next to each other but we're hoping to cover approx. 4x4 with each hood. The 11 spots together added up to 4,794.

Luxor did very well. Again, very high values (1800) immediately below the bulb, but still decent numbers on the perimeter (200-300). All 11 added up to 5,585.

The Magnum had the most even spread. Only 1025 in the center, but perimeter values were closer to 400. The total value came out to 4,990, but again all the numbers were far more evenly distributed.

Shop dude fucked up and didn't get the AdjustAwing so I didn't get to test that but I'm leaning towards the ol' Magnum's.

Sunlight supplies test...

Growlites test...

I think it's clear that the luxor is the winner but OG has to try.
Learn something new every day. Coco you better trade up...cheaper than your normal infatuations.


Just remember my golden rule...Quanta equals biomass. I like how the guy I quoted adds it up so he knows the total reaching the canopy all over.

 

[Greengenes707]

On my last leg of trimming. Here are a couple shots from days while I was trimming...I'll get some actual comparison photos up when it's all done, but I know everyone is antsy so this is the preview.

Apache nugs...


Hps nug...



And then read what they say about the R2 spectrum...Alternative Crops

 

[puffenuff]

Beautiful buds, sir.

I can't wait to get growing again.

 

[PSUAGRO.]

I always thought the og hoods where the best vert reflectors too......surprising. luxor seemed like a knock off, they definitely did their homework.

Prefer bare bulb with umbrella up top, doesn't work for everyone though.

Nice buds gg......no rush on the final #s!!......lol

 

[PurpleBuz]

And then read what they say about the R2 spectrum...Alternative Crops
View attachment 3165529

are you using the 4:1 or the 3:2 ?

 

[Greengenes707]

I always thought the og hoods where the best vert reflectors too......surprising. luxor seemed like a knock off, they definitely did their homework.

Prefer bare bulb with umbrella up top, doesn't work for everyone though.

Nice buds gg......no rush on the final #s!!......lol

I want to see an umbrella par test...beeen wondering...after seeing the regular wing's test, I don't have much faith in the umbrella.

3 units...one man...takes a while.
I know the results basically, nothing is going to change very much...at600 will replace a 1000w hps...but GG needs to step up his skills to hit the 1.75 club with either light...let alone the 2 club.

are you using the 4:1 or the 3:2 ?

3:2...R2

 

[PSUAGRO.]

I want to see an umbrella par test...beeen wondering...after seeing the regular wing's test, I don't have much faith in the umbrella.

3 units...one man...takes a while.
I know the results basically, nothing is going to change very much...at600 will replace a 1000w hps...but GG needs to step up his skills to hit the 1.75 club with either light...let alone the 2 club.


3:2...R2

No way an umbrella will beat a properly designed vert reflector ..... the price reflects that, their cheap. Ran them differently, two feet from the bulb in the middle of a stadium style pot circle for maximum efficiency........still never hit 1gpw

Your trying for 1.75gpw from a fixed 1000w hps?! Wow, that's allot of grams

 

[natro.hydro]

but GG needs to step up his skills to hit the 1.75 club with either light...let alone the 2 club.

I like how you refer to yourself in the 3rd person here lol, found it kinda funny. Not saying you have an inflated ego or nothing, trust me i know plenty of growers who think they should be winning cups lol. Just gave me a giggle for some reason. Might be time to put the bong down for a sec lol.

Always loved how blue dream has a light green hue to it. Atleast the bags that have made it to me, never grown it sitting on an auto blue dream freebie but kot placing large faith in it knocking my dick in the dirt like the first time i smoked some dream.


Sent from my SCH-R930 using Rollitup mobile app

 

[dbkick]

In the end it's all the same base amount of photons(ppf), just distributed differently, and with very slight other losses. So as long as you are hitting the ideal intensity(800-1200µmols) then next thing to worry about is how close/far are your outer intensities to that ideal goal(lower is acceptable for outer edges). It's easy to hit center intensity...much harder to bet into the perfection zone on the outer edges. With multiple lights it is very attainable to reach >700µmols at the cross over and no less anywhere else. That is my goal...now what lights/hood/whatever are going to meet that is how I think about it.

If concentrated intensity is what your looking for...then an OG hood by growrite is the best in the business...kills the intensity of any other hoods, but coverage is lacking comparatively to the raptor and XXL's.
Also raptors and other big hoods are really meant for 1K's, not 600's(except the double bulbed raptors). 600hps you want a smaller hood. So I don't know if we are even talking same league. Check out the OG hood if you haven't already...it's a vertical mounted AC hood by the way, which is why it gets the intensity it does.

So what is your set up...or planned setup? Sounds like it has some kind of special need(s).

Not sure the OG kills the luxor since they are very similar , I own a luxor. Both hoods are very big vertically. not sure which is slimmer profile but I do know the luxor kills. I was shopping for an og and decided on the luxor instead.

 

[dbkick]

oh but then now that I look back a few posts I see this has already been talked about. Who's a knock off of who is my question?

 

[dbkick]

On my last leg of trimming. Here are a couple shots from days while I was trimming...I'll get some actual comparison photos up when it's all done, but I know everyone is antsy so this is the preview.

Apache nugs...
View attachment 3165526

Hps nug...
View attachment 3165527


And then read what they say about the R2 spectrum...Alternative Crops
View attachment 3165529

It's like the led nugs are treated like a before and after. Nice lighting on the picture, nice and zoomed in (can't see whole hand) . But then the hps nug, one nug, zoomed out, shitty lighting. I don't get it :/