If you don't like it then move.

killemsoftly said:
The low iq stuff was used by the Nazis to justify eugenics.
People are people. To me a bunch of iq stuff is meaningless.
I must not get the seeming obsession some southerners have with race or, to say it another way, melanin distribution or lack thereof.
Seems like a real time waster and a non-starter.
Persist if you must. I'm sure many will join in.
The day you get rid of the avatar is the day you'll get some credibility with guys like me. Till then your just another nut with some smarts spouting off a load of nonsense.
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My avatar is great. She has an Obama lip implant and an obamaphone in his native Kenyan village.
 
BigNBushy said:
It's a ny times article talking about a bunch of different studies... I'm using an android.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

Maybe that will work.
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if the achievement gap is innate and genetic, how has it shrunk since 1970?

and if people are ostracized for publishing this type of thing, why does jencks not come up with the same profile as rushton?

damn, you just outed your own dishonesty more than anything else. and destroyed your own arguments about this being an innate thing about blacks. it clearly isn't innate.
 
UncleBuck said:
if the achievement gap is innate and genetic, how has it shrunk since 1970?

and if people are ostracized for publishing this type of thing, why does jencks not come up with the same profile as rushton?

damn, you just outed your own dishonesty more than anything else. and destroyed your own arguments about this being an innate thing about blacks. it clearly isn't innate.
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The gap is both innate and circumstantial. The circumstantial variables have been made more similar since then.

But even the evil rightey whitey racist at the Ny times says that blacks and whites who are raised with the same stuff, schools, familial wealth, and opportunity still have the gap.

Buck, it exists. 99.9 percent of social scientists will acknowledge it. They will blame it on something else. But it is real.
 
BigNBushy said:
Here is the racist New York Times for you again.
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Here is a copy/paste section from that "NY TIMES" page... Did you even read it?

"But despite endless speculation, no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites. Thus while it is clear that eliminating the test score gap would require enormous effort by both blacks and whites and would probably take more than one generation, we believe it can be done."

again....

"....no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites....."


ONE MORE TIME...

"no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites."
 
Ceepea said:
Here is a copy/paste section from that "NY TIMES" page... Did you even read it?

"But despite endless speculation, no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites. Thus while it is clear that eliminating the test score gap would require enormous effort by both blacks and whites and would probably take more than one generation, we believe it can be done."

again....

"....no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites....."


ONE MORE TIME...

"no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites."
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Yes I read it.

But no, I don't put the same meaning to it.

The lack of evidence for one thing is not evidence that the opposite is true.

I doubt there has been a lot of research into that.

But more importantly, our understanding of human brains and how they work is I'm it's infancy.

I've never maintained 100% of the gap is innate anyway.

The article goes on to say that blacks raised in white households out perform other blacks.

Some of it is also cultural where being smart is "acting white" in the black community.

You guys are grasping at straws.
 
BigNBushy said:
Yes I read it.

But no, I don't put the same meaning to it.

The lack of evidence for one thing is not evidence that the opposite is true.

I doubt there has been a lot of research into that.

But more importantly, our understanding of human brains and how they work is I'm it's infancy.

I've never maintained 100% of the gap is innate anyway.

The article goes on to say that blacks raised in white households out perform other blacks.

Some of it is also cultural where being smart is "acting white" in the black community.

You guys are grasping at straws.
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Not at all.

It says there is no way to show that genetics play a role in the intelligence gap. You're making assumptions that aren't based on science or facts, they're based on your own confirmation bias. You want to believe whites are smarter than blacks so you try to find evidence to support what you believe. Thank fuck you are not a scientist. (Although if you had even a shred of scientific understanding you might understand why your opinion is meaningless)

It also goes on to critique the use of the word "intelligence".

"Yet almost all psychologists now agree that intelligence tests measure developed rather than innate abilities, and that people's developed abilities depend on their environment as well as their genes. Even psychologists who believe that racial differences in test performance are to some extent innate agree that intelligence tests overstate the difference one would observe if blacks and whites grew up in identical environments. Intelligence tests therefore constitute a racially biased estimate of innate ability, which is what nonpsychologists often mean by the word "intelligence." Test designers cannot eliminate this bias by changing the content of intelligence tests. The only way to eliminate it is to change the tests' labels so as to emphasize the fact that they measure developed rather than innate skills and abilities."
 
Another quote....



"Taken in isolation, none of these studies would carry much weight. The samples are small, and the comparisons could be distorted by unmeasured genetic or environmental influences. But Nisbett argues that their consistency gives them far more weight that they would have if taken one by one. We agree. We read these studies as supporting three tentative conclusions:

--When "black" genes are not visible to the naked eye and are not associated with membership in a black community, they do not have much effect on young children's test scores.

--Growing up in an African-American rather than a European-American family substantially reduces a young child's test performance.

--When black Americans raised in white families reach adolescence, their test scores fall.

These studies do not prove that blacks and whites would have exactly the same test scores if they were raised in the same environment and treated the same way. But we find it hard to see how anyone reading these studies with an open mind could conclude that innate ability played a large role in the black-white gap."
 
Ceepea said:
Not at all.

It says there is no way to show that genetics play a role in the intelligence gap. You're making assumptions that aren't based on science or facts, they're based on your own confirmation bias. You want to believe whites are smarter than blacks so you try to find evidence to support what you believe. Thank fuck you are not a scientist. (Although if you had even a shred of scientific understanding you might understand why your opinion is meaningless)

It also goes on to critique the use of the word "intelligence".

"Yet almost all psychologists now agree that intelligence tests measure developed rather than innate abilities, and that people's developed abilities depend on their environment as well as their genes. Even psychologists who believe that racial differences in test performance are to some extent innate agree that intelligence tests overstate the difference one would observe if blacks and whites grew up in identical environments. Intelligence tests therefore constitute a racially biased estimate of innate ability, which is what nonpsychologists often mean by the word "intelligence." Test designers cannot eliminate this bias by changing the content of intelligence tests. The only way to eliminate it is to change the tests' labels so as to emphasize the fact that they measure developed rather than innate skills and abilities."
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This is in the NY Times. It is a hatchet job.

I only cited this article as evidence that the gap does exist.

Now that I have presented overwhelming evidence of the gap, the goals shift.

I'm not saying you moved the goalposts, but now you're wanting something else.

The theory about white/black iq tests being culturally biased fall apart rather quickly with Asian immigrants blowing the tops off them.

I even saw them discuss this on "through the wormhole" with Morgan Freeman.

You say "well there is no genetic evidence. " then you want to pretend that this means something.

There is also no evidence for life in other solar systems. Bam, case closed. We're the only life in the universe.

We are not capable of fully knowing either at the moment.
 
Ceepea said:
Another quote....



"Taken in isolation, none of these studies would carry much weight. The samples are small, and the comparisons could be distorted by unmeasured genetic or environmental influences. But Nisbett argues that their consistency gives them far more weight that they would have if taken one by one. We agree. We read these studies as supporting three tentative conclusions:

--When "black" genes are not visible to the naked eye and are not associated with membership in a black community, they do not have much effect on young children's test scores.

--Growing up in an African-American rather than a European-American family substantially reduces a young child's test performance.

--When black Americans raised in white families reach adolescence, their test scores fall.

These studies do not prove that blacks and whites would have exactly the same test scores if they were raised in the same environment and treated the same way. But we find it hard to see how anyone reading these studies with an open mind could conclude that innate ability played a large role in the black-white gap."
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In this politically correct environment what do you expect them to say?

Paula Dean is made public enemy number one because she might have said the n word 20 years ago.

A guy asks his girlfriend not to hang out so much with black dudes and they want to force him to sale his property.

So if a reporter said anything but just that he would lose his job.

If a reporter ran this story and gave no opinion he would probably still lose his job.

Suppose I'm correct. . It would probably be better public policy to not acknowledge this as true. It could demotivate young blacks. And it could easily be a slippery slope toward bigotry.

But it don't change truth.

An open minded person , with the amount of evidence at hand couldn't reject that supposition out of hand.

Especially because geneticist have not found a gene they aren't looking for.

In the grand scheme of things the differences are not that huge. But it explains everything with respect to the problems facing black america.
 
BigNBushy said:
This is in the NY Times. It is a hatchet job.

I only cited this article as evidence that the gap does exist.

Now that I have presented overwhelming evidence of the gap, the goals shift.
Click to expand...


WTF are you babbling about now? I never stated differences don't exist, I'm rejecting your statement that whites are smarter than blacks. The articles you post disprove your own point, how retarded are you? Wait, if I were you I wouldn't answer, I'd plead the fifth....

I'm not saying you moved the goalposts, but now you're wanting something else.

The theory about white/black iq tests being culturally biased fall apart rather quickly with Asian immigrants blowing the tops off them.
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Not if Asian culture puts even more importance on school than white culture, it makes perfect sense. How do you not see this easy-as-fuck-to-make connection?


I even saw them discuss this on "through the wormhole" with Morgan Freeman.

You say "well there is no genetic evidence. " then you want to pretend that this means something.

There is also no evidence for life in other solar systems. Bam, case closed. We're the only life in the universe.
Click to expand...

Another facile argument from a facile mind.

It doesn't mean there's NO life elsewhere, it just means there's no reason to believe there is BASED ON OUR CURRENT UNDERSTANDING of what we know about solar systems and life elsewhere. You like to make retarded arguments based on assumptions and faulty logic, then scream bloody murder when people point out your failures and shortcomings.

We are not capable of fully knowing either at the moment.
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Then why do you claim genetic differences are the factors?
 
So you're saying Asians put more importance on education and score better. Ok.

So the reason blacks score worse is that they place less emphasis on it?

Buck says that's racist.
 
BigNBushy said:
So you're saying Asians put more importance on education and score better. Ok.

So the reason blacks score worse is that they place less emphasis on it?

Buck says that's racist.
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I don't think that's racist because them putting less importance on education doesn't make them inferior.

Like I've said before, the only way to tell if genetics play a role in intelligence (or at least more than social factors) is by using a gigantic sample size, and by controlling all the variables. No one has done this, so drawing conclusions is nothing more than making assumptions.

Do I think 'black culture' puts less importance on education than 'white culture'? Yes.
Do I think 'Asian culture' puts more importance on education than 'white culture'? Yes.
Do I think this might have something to do with the scores that test your skill proficiency when it comes to things you've learned in school? Yes.
Do I think it's possible for all 'intelligence scores' to basically average out if all other factors/variables are controlled? Probably, but there's not enough information to make a call, IMO.
 
Ceepea said:
I don't think that's racist because them putting less importance on education doesn't make them inferior.

Like I've said before, the only way to tell if genetics play a role in intelligence (or at least more than social factors) is by using a gigantic sample size, and by controlling all the variables. No one has done this, so drawing conclusions is nothing more than making assumptions.

Do I think 'black culture' puts less importance on education than 'white culture'? Yes.
Do I think 'Asian culture' puts more importance on education than 'white culture'? Yes.
Do I think this might have something to do with the scores that test your skill proficiency when it comes to things you've learned in school? Yes.
Do I think it's possible for all 'intelligence scores' to basically average out if all other factors/variables are controlled? Probably, but there's not enough information to make a call, IMO.
Click to expand...
Just a few counter points to this otherwise rational and we'll thought out post.

The variance in iq scores between whites and blacks is only marginally smaller in areas where Blacks are similar to the more well to do whites; suburbia. When blacks have similar wealth, the same schools, and the same opportunities, only ever so slightly do their scores improve.

In the poor inner cities, the blacks score way lower. But so do the whites who have the same schools, similar wealth and opportunity. Still there the average white score is well above their black neighbors.

I'm not saying innate ability makes up 100 percent of the difference, and that it means that all blacks are inevitable failures.

We cannot know for certain either way. I applaud you for recognizing that. This tells us nothing about an individual you meet during the course of your daily affairs.

What it explains is why government statistics on racial progression still show blacks earn less on average, and also don't have significant proportion of their population living in prosperity.

The reality is the persons in this country who have the easiest time getting ahead are those blacks who fall above average intelligence levels. Companies love having a very qualified african American candidate to choose.
 
BigNBushy said:
The gap is ... innate...
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gonna need a citation for that as well, since the one suitable study you have shown (in which the researchers were not tarred and feathered for their work) does not make that conclusion in the least.

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you have yet to provide one iota of evidence for your conclusion.

get to it, princess.
 
UncleBuck said:
gonna need a citation for that as well, since the one suitable study you have shown (in which the researchers were not tarred and feathered for their work) does not make that conclusion in the least.

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you have yet to provide one iota of evidence for your conclusion.

get to it, princess.
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Meanwhile you have posted zero supporting evidence.

Despite their utter lack of equitable living standards around the world, you're the one claiming equality. It looks like you're the one with the extraordinary claim.
 
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