Skuxx
Well-Known Member
do you have the link to where it says camels were domesticated after 900 bc, and how they proved that?? Seems like it would have been way earlier than 900bc. Earlier than 2700bc too.
Nye vs Ken right now, don't miss it.
- Thread starter Zaehet Strife
- Start date
Nevaeh420
Well-Known Member
So, hypothetically, if there is no beginning, there is no God? Is that what youre impling?
I believe God could just be the One to "seed" or create universes throughout the multiverse. If one universe can be created from nothing, why cant there be a seemingly infinite amount of universes?
How could a universe be created an infinite amount of time ago? Time will never be infinite because the past is in past and the future hasnt happened yet. There will always be more time and thus, nothing ever happened an infinite amount of time ago even if it was the beginning of the beginning.
I believe the Higher Power created all the universe(s). What else, besides the Higher, can create a universe from nothing?
I dont claim to know if the God is eternal or not.
How can anything be eternal? That would imply that there was something before anything, before the first universe or before time even existed. And in order for it to be eternal, it needs to last forever and ever. Maybe God is eternal, but I dont claim to ascertain that or know the dynamics of that.
But the fact is that science says the universe has manifested for ~13.7 billion years. Thats a long time but its still finite. So science says that the universe has been around for a finite time, thats a fact and not My opinion.
~PEACE~
Skuxx
Well-Known Member
No I wasn't trying to imply that. It might suggest that a little bit, though. My main point was eternity. There never was an initial creation, because there never was a beginning. There will never be an end. You say that god created something from nothing. But in that case, does god = nothing???? It would appear that this god you believe in would need to be something... which means it did not create something from nothing. It used it's capabilities to create.
You don't claim to know if your god is eternal or not. If it is not eternal, then how did it come into being? At another point you said "what else, besides the higher, can create a universe from nothing?" So if you believe that way, then do you believe that something "higher" must have created your god at some point? Thus, going back infinitely???
Your last statement that says the universe has manifested for 13.7 billion years is just wrong. That is simply the amount of years that have passed since the "big bang". What we see as a result of the big bang is only what we call "the visible universe" There was obviously something already going on which led up to the big bang.
Bubba Nub
Member
Fun stuff guys! I'm a huge fan of Carl Sagan, his series Cosmos changed my life and is still something I will re watch regularly. His rather famous statements that "we are made of star stuff", that "we are the universe becoming conscious of it's self" are two things I contemplate regularly. If that is the case, then wouldn't stand to reason that evolution, both biological scale and cosmic scale, is the "universe" evolving to not only be aware, but to also have complete understanding of itself. Attempting, if you will, to have a species evolve sufficiently to approach the singularity. Meaning the gathering of enough knowledge to know all the mysteries of the metaverse. In a sense, the universe manifests itself and becomes the origin and possessor of all knowledge. Granted I'm talking on a time scale that we can't comprehend, something that makes deep time seem insufficient to gauge it's passing.
As nutty as the above sounds, I actually think it recognizes the base "truths" found in all religions and yet, still very easily allows the only real constant truth we know reign the laws of our observable universe....math. Just digest for a minute the increase in general knowledge within our species over the last century. How exponentially fast it is increasing because of how it builds on itself. Little more than 100 years ago, man took flight. Within 60 years of that, we went to the moon. Just yesterday, I saw a photo of earth from behind Neptune. Think about that for a minute.... If we don't kill ourselves off, where will we be as a species 1000 years from now? A millenia from now?
As nutty as the above sounds, I actually think it recognizes the base "truths" found in all religions and yet, still very easily allows the only real constant truth we know reign the laws of our observable universe....math. Just digest for a minute the increase in general knowledge within our species over the last century. How exponentially fast it is increasing because of how it builds on itself. Little more than 100 years ago, man took flight. Within 60 years of that, we went to the moon. Just yesterday, I saw a photo of earth from behind Neptune. Think about that for a minute.... If we don't kill ourselves off, where will we be as a species 1000 years from now? A millenia from now?
Beefbisquit
Well-Known Member
You're claiming the universe HAD to be created, or else how did it get here, but you're using an infinite being or god that would have had to always exist in order explain how the universe was created Do you not see how that's insane? You're saying the universe needs a creator, but the creator DOESN'T need a creator. If god could have always existed, so could the universe in some form.
Why do you keep saying it was created? There is no evidence to support the idea that the universe was created. The only thing we know is that approximately 14 billion years ago, the universe, AS WE KNOW IT, came into existence. Before that, we have no idea what existed.
Why can't the matter/energy that is the universe have always existed?
The future hasn't necessarily not happened yet. To different people in different locations, different events can happen at different times. The future is only the future to us in a relative sense
What created the higher beings? What else could create a higher being but an even higher being. And what created that higher being? And what created THAT higher being? And what created that higher being. Do you see what's happening here? It's called an infinite regression, and it's FUCKING USELESS in terms of explanatory power.
So (1) you think there's a life form that's more than 14 billion years old, (2)that you're somehow his son, (3)and prophet, (4)and messiah, (5)that aliens hover above your house frequently, and (6) that at least one alien in an invisibility cloak has spied on you from your neighbors roof - BUT you can't say for sure if god is eternal or not, that's too much of a leap.
You are crazy as fuck, and so very humble.
Science says that the start of the universe as we know it began 14 billion years ago. It says nothing about creation, or the coming into existence of the matter/energy that formed the anomaly that lead to the big bang.
tyler.durden
Well-Known Member
Nice post, it gets frustrating playing Anne Sullivan after a while, no?
tyler.durden
Well-Known Member
I argued with my best friend over this debate being a good idea: he said that debate was no way to run science, and that it would likely give some legitimacy to Hamm's drivel to a larger audience. I said we must debate, for what if the alternative? I didn't want to be around when conversation fails and ceases. Guess I was dead wrong in this case...
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/01/284397588/creation-museum-bill-nye-debate-sparked-funding-miracle
[h=1]Creation Museum: Bill Nye Debate Sparked Funding 'Miracle'[/h]
by
March 01, 201412:26 PM
TV's "Science Guy" Bill Nye speaks during a debate on evolution with Creation Museum head Ken Ham on Feb. 4 at the Petersburg, Ky, museum.
Dylan Lovan/AP
Ken Ham, the founder of the Creation Museum who "The Science Guy" pitting his Biblical literalism against Darwinian evolution, says the highly publicized showdown has been like manna from heaven for a foundering $73 million Noah's Ark theme park.
"It was a challenging time, one that on a human level required a miracle to overcome," Ham, who heads the Answers in Genesis ministry, said in a statement of the near collapse of funding for the long-delayed park. "And God in His providence supplied our needs."
But, as , Ham also credits his debate nemesis with bringing the media spotlight to the Creation Museum, which, among other things
Despite criticism from scientists who thought the debate would give Ham undeserved attention for his view that the Earth and all living things were specially created by God a mere 6,000 years ago, Nye accepted the challenge and faced off against Ham on stage at the Kentucky museum on February 4.
Nye is , but Ham may have gotten the last word: on Thursday he announced that his Creation Museum's proposed Noah's Ark theme park, including a 510-foot replica of the Biblical vessel, had against all odds secured a last-minute $62 million municipal bond offering. The miracle was God's, he said, but Nye also had something to do with it:
As , roughly a month before the debate, Ark Encounter, which enjoys generous tax breaks from the state of Kentucky, looked like it was sunk.
But in the statement, Ham said:
, author of the book and blog Why Evolution Is True, wrote ahead of the debate that "Nye's appearance will be giving money to organizations who try to subvert the mission Nye has had all his life: science education, particularly of kids."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/01/284397588/creation-museum-bill-nye-debate-sparked-funding-miracle
[h=1]Creation Museum: Bill Nye Debate Sparked Funding 'Miracle'[/h]
by
March 01, 201412:26 PM
TV's "Science Guy" Bill Nye speaks during a debate on evolution with Creation Museum head Ken Ham on Feb. 4 at the Petersburg, Ky, museum.
Dylan Lovan/AP
Ken Ham, the founder of the Creation Museum who "The Science Guy" pitting his Biblical literalism against Darwinian evolution, says the highly publicized showdown has been like manna from heaven for a foundering $73 million Noah's Ark theme park.
"It was a challenging time, one that on a human level required a miracle to overcome," Ham, who heads the Answers in Genesis ministry, said in a statement of the near collapse of funding for the long-delayed park. "And God in His providence supplied our needs."
But, as , Ham also credits his debate nemesis with bringing the media spotlight to the Creation Museum, which, among other things
Despite criticism from scientists who thought the debate would give Ham undeserved attention for his view that the Earth and all living things were specially created by God a mere 6,000 years ago, Nye accepted the challenge and faced off against Ham on stage at the Kentucky museum on February 4.
Nye is , but Ham may have gotten the last word: on Thursday he announced that his Creation Museum's proposed Noah's Ark theme park, including a 510-foot replica of the Biblical vessel, had against all odds secured a last-minute $62 million municipal bond offering. The miracle was God's, he said, but Nye also had something to do with it:
As , roughly a month before the debate, Ark Encounter, which enjoys generous tax breaks from the state of Kentucky, looked like it was sunk.
But in the statement, Ham said:
"The recent global media coverage of the Ark project and the soon-to-be-released film Noah starring Russell Crowe, plus Ham's well-publicized February 4 debate with Bill Nye 'The Science Guy' (over 7 million people watched live), have all helped bring the Ark Encounter to the world's attention."
"The date of my debate with Bill Nye had been on our calendar several months before we knew the final delivery date of the Ark bonds. But in God's timing, not ours—and although the bond registration had already closed before February 4 and no more bonds could be purchased— the high-profile debate prompted some people who had registered for the bonds to make sure they followed through with submitting the necessary and sometimes complicated paperwork."
After Nye announced he would debate Ham, he heard from many scientists who disagreed with his decision. They feared that the confrontation would give Ham's fringe viewpoint a wide hearing that it did not deserve."The date of my debate with Bill Nye had been on our calendar several months before we knew the final delivery date of the Ark bonds. But in God's timing, not ours—and although the bond registration had already closed before February 4 and no more bonds could be purchased— the high-profile debate prompted some people who had registered for the bonds to make sure they followed through with submitting the necessary and sometimes complicated paperwork."
, author of the book and blog Why Evolution Is True, wrote ahead of the debate that "Nye's appearance will be giving money to organizations who try to subvert the mission Nye has had all his life: science education, particularly of kids."
tyler.durden
Well-Known Member
I would imagine that's true. Let's just pretend Ham is American, we have so many nuts, what's one more
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
So their organization was almost bankrupt and that debate sparked more donations not only keeping them afloat, but providing enough to build a Noah's ark theme park?
This should be good.. I bet they don't go with 2 T-Rex's for the dinosaurs
This should be good.. I bet they don't go with 2 T-Rex's for the dinosaurs
midgetaus
Member
So because you have no idea on what, if anything, created the universe... you label it to being a "god"..... seems legit
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/12/the-ark-park-needs-to-sink/
"The fact that how to house and care for their animals is the LAST part of their planning process — a plan to build what is supposed to be a historical artifact made specifically to hold animals — says a lot.
This is an attraction that exists to promote a religious message. It’s not about animals at all. The welfare of the animals and their biology is less important than their ability to reinforce a religious myth."
"Keeping animals in captivity is really, really difficult. By gathering animals together in an artificial environment you concentrate all the poop and pee, and just make it easier for diseases to rapidly spread. (Got a kid in daycare? You know exactly what I’m talking about.)
As caretakers we have an ethical duty to provide captive animals with the food and environment they need to stay healthy. Doing that takes specialized knowledge. If you have raptors or game birds, they can get bumblefoot just from the wrong kind of perches. Feeding an imbalanced diet, or just not noticing a raptor is off its food, can tip a bird into a metabolic crash. Ducks can get a fatal type of herpes that spreads rapidly, despite our best efforts.
Since the junk bond issue brought the Ark Encounter back into the news again, I thought it might be interesting to call the Ark folks up and ask some questions about their animal care. Mr. Zovath was kind enough to chat with me on the phone this week."
[h=1]Noah’s Extremely Bad Animal Husbandry Advice[/h]
"The fact that how to house and care for their animals is the LAST part of their planning process — a plan to build what is supposed to be a historical artifact made specifically to hold animals — says a lot.
This is an attraction that exists to promote a religious message. It’s not about animals at all. The welfare of the animals and their biology is less important than their ability to reinforce a religious myth."
"Keeping animals in captivity is really, really difficult. By gathering animals together in an artificial environment you concentrate all the poop and pee, and just make it easier for diseases to rapidly spread. (Got a kid in daycare? You know exactly what I’m talking about.)
As caretakers we have an ethical duty to provide captive animals with the food and environment they need to stay healthy. Doing that takes specialized knowledge. If you have raptors or game birds, they can get bumblefoot just from the wrong kind of perches. Feeding an imbalanced diet, or just not noticing a raptor is off its food, can tip a bird into a metabolic crash. Ducks can get a fatal type of herpes that spreads rapidly, despite our best efforts.
Since the junk bond issue brought the Ark Encounter back into the news again, I thought it might be interesting to call the Ark folks up and ask some questions about their animal care. Mr. Zovath was kind enough to chat with me on the phone this week."
[h=1]Noah’s Extremely Bad Animal Husbandry Advice[/h]
Beefbisquit
Well-Known Member
He doesn't even realize the assumptions he's making with that statement.... I've tried to point it out to him before, in one of the 1,000,000,000 threads he's either created, or hijacked....
He uses the word 'created' because he is already assuming their to be a creator before he even asks the question. He doesn't understand this concept, and how it's begging the question.
He is assuming that there was 'nothing' before there was 'something', which is also fallacious. Why is he assuming there was nothing to begin with? It's more likely that there was just always 'something'. That is the stance that makes the least amount of assumptions, and thus, is most likely. We've no reason at all to believe matter can be created or destroyed.
But, you'd be wasting your time trying to show him anything. He's just a blissfully ignorant, giant, lying, delusional, man-boy.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why people engage with him so much when he is upfront about being feeble minded. It's like trying to argue morality with Charles Manson. Should it really be surprising, or a source of frustration, that a mentally challenged person does not properly grasp reality, reason or logic? Since he is immune to refutation, responding to him can only offer validation.
Nevaeh420
Well-Known Member
Do you have any better guesses?
All I know is that science says, "the universe "began" or came into existance about 13.7 billion years ago."
My deduction is that it was created by a Higher Power. Obviously the Atheists dont want to hear that the universe was created by any "higher power", but Im not an Atheist, and this is simply My BELIEF.
NO ONE KNOWS what or who was before the Big Bang, we can only use science, logic, and reason to discern what came after the Big Bang.
Anyone that tells you they KNOW what came before the Big Bang is either a liar or delusional. Science doesnt even know yet, and maybe never will.
~PEACE~
Skuxx
Well-Known Member
Not sure if my guess is better, but I'm leaning towards something like electromagnetism, gravity, and space, The holy trinity!!!... (I haven't dove much into that area of science yet)
Other times I start thinking that maybe all of the physical universe is an illusion, and nothing is really physical. We're only consciousness at the most fundamental level. And with eternity in the equation, it could build on itself and change, and boom here we are. I can't think of how to explain it in a reasonable way right now, but in my head it could make sense. When you dream at night you can still have all your senses, but you're not really using them. Maybe waking life is the same. Kind of like the bill hicks quote, and the idea came from acid for me too.
Beefbisquit
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm a sucker for punishment.
NietzscheKeen
Well-Known Member
Did you guys see that post-debate, the creation museum and their ministries received something like seventy-three million dollars in donations?
tyler.durden
Well-Known Member
See post #67, just 11 posts back
midgetaus
Member
So is that what you do.. guess and that means its true?
it also leaves the point that what created the creator?