Why the hell are people against free health care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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SDSativa

SDSativa

Active Member
People voted for Obama because they were sick of Bush's policies, which Obama has been speeding up. The American people don't believe corporations should be bailed out, government should be in control, and yes, socialized medicine. Every single poll I have seen, has shown we don't want socialized medicine, so please show me the opposite. Obama is acting in a way nobody would have expected, and that also shows in the polls. How is socialized medicine "change we can believe in"? If the American people supported it, it would have passed a long time ago. That is why we have medicare, medicaid, welfare, and other social policies. They are trying to sneak it in, when nobody but the socialist left support it. We don't want higher taxes, and that is what his plan would do. We want the government out of our lifes. Just because a person is elected, doesn't mean the people who voted for him have the same beliefs. We thought Obama would be different, bring in new faces, but the fact is he is no different, he has tripled our deficit, and blames everything he can't control on Bush. I didn't like Bush either, but Obama is doing what people hated Bush for. He has radicals in the white house and is trying to turn America into another failed socialist country. That is not what we are about, so how can you support him.
 
SDSativa

SDSativa

Active Member
America should also start giving out free food, free housing, free cars, free electricity, free clothes, free college, free everything. Then the government would be in complete control and we would all be so much better off. Lets just all depend on the government to do everything, after all, that is the moral thing to do. I mean, why does that guy deserve to live in a huge house, with 12 cars right. We don't need to do anything for ourselves, we are all human beings. We all deserve to be equal. Isn't food more of a necessity than healthcare? We all need to eat to survive, so why isn't that a fundamental right? What ever happened to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness.
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
OregonMeds said:
You're wrong if you think most americans don't support it. You are believing the wrong polls, polls can say anything you like when you only poll certain groups.

People overwhelmingly voted for change did they not? That's why Omaba's in office and this is just a part of that change. Socialized Medicine is not an Obama idea, it's been around for a very long time and the first try to get it passed here was by the clinton administration.
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I hate to bring up the obvious, but this isn't the change that most people voted for. In fact, unless someone was blind and deaf, Obama represented himself as a moderate. His personality and a press that wouldn't question ANYTHING that came out of his mouth got him elected on a complete sham of campaign. Got to give him props for that. But don't tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing with my own two good eyes. Not to mention that 52% of the popular vote is anything but overwhelming.

EVERY credible poll shows that a majority of Americans have turned against his policies, they still like him, but the vision of our future he denied having during the campaign that is now, oh so apparent is dying a withering death. That is unless you find the NY times poll to be credible.... LOL.

OregonMeds said:
We are overwhelmingly against socialized medicine? We already have more socialized medicine systems in place than almost anywhere else on the planet. We have medicare, medicaid, the veterans administration, and at least one state run system in all 50 states and often more than one in each plus a million free clinics etc etc.
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Wow, this sounds like you're arguing against a national system. You do understand that everything listed above is either bankrupt, going bankrupt, bankrupting the states they are in, or provide a level of medical care that most of us would abhor. Yes, lets take the WORST examples of health care in this country and use it as an argument for expansion. You're kidding around with us, right?

OregonMeds said:
All that bs with all the millions of miles of paperwork overhead and layers of profit at every turn needs to be rolled into one system to cover everyone along with whatever parts of the for profit system
want to come along and done right everyone will be covered at a lower cost than we pay now.
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Oh and the government is a fine example of lowering overhead and raising efficiency. Again, you MUST be kidding. What parts of the "for profit" system will survive, every version of the bill so far sets the guidelines, entirely, as to how they will be allowed to conduct business. That's called Fascism my friend, I don't need Fox news or anybody to explain it to me. I got a dictionary RIGHT HERE. I'll ask again, are you sure you aren't arguing against nationalized health care? Because you're making my points for me, so it's really gonna be hard to convince me otherwise when you just elaborated how my worst fears will be realized.

OregonMeds said:
If you think most don't support it, that's because you get your news from faulty sources. We voted in a black man (miracle of all miracles) specifically for change and it wasn't a minority that voted the man in, quite the opposite.
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Who cares what color he is? I sure as hell don't. If race is such an issue for you, then keep calling everyone against his policies a racist. It's a tired, boring and flaccid argument and it shows your position isn't strong enough to stand on it's own without bringing it up. It's truly pathetic and more importantly, it won't work.

OregonMeds said:
I'm all for question authority... Question everything... The first question is why are you listening to propaganda against this when we desperately need it and have for a very long time. Why can some go on and on about our charity to other nations and how proud we should be of that when we don't even take care of our own people?
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That is the most absurd comment I've seen on here in a while. You aren't for questioning anything. You and the MMM you get your news from would have eagerly let them pass ANY bill before they went on summer break. No questions about content, effectiveness, cost or how it was going to be paid for. They still can't settle on a program among their own ranks, but the House was happy to rubber stamp ANYTHING.....WITHOUT EVEN READING THE DAMN THING. And if it weren't for the uproar, the Senate would have done the exact same thing. So don't even bother with the I'm for questioning everything, let alone anything... It's a flat out lie. Yeah, I said it.
 
doobnVA

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
To everyone here who is arguing that the US has the "best" health care system in the world, I'd advise you to watch the PBS special "Frontline: Sick Around the World". You'll see how health care works in other countries, and hear from the people in those countries how THEY feel about their health care system compared to the US system.

You'll see people in Britian protesting changes to their existing health care system holding signs that say "NO US STYLE HEALTH CARE!!"

If OUR system is so great, then how come nobody else has a system similar to ours? IF a free market health care system works so well, why are we the only country who has one?

Why did Japan ultimately REJECT our system when they were trying to find a solution to THEIR health care crisis?

Because it ISN'T the best. It isn't even CLOSE to the best. In terms of ACCESS to health care, the US is in LAST PLACE!! When it comes to QUALITY of care, we aren't anywhere near the best, either.

If the government can't be trusted to run a tight ship with health care, then why are the administrative costs of our "free market" system nearly 8 TIMES HIGHER than the administrative costs of our already existing "socialized" systems (medicare, medicaid, etc)?

700,000 people file bankruptcy in the United States every year because of medical bills they can't pay. This DOES NOT happen in other countries, period. Sure, governments who provide universal health care tend to spend too little on health care, driving their health care systems into deficit, but aren't they a bit better equipped to bounce back from that versus...say...an elderly person on a fixed income who's forced into bankruptcy because they became ill and their insurance company refuses to pick up the tab?

Why are we letting the insurance companies and hospitals drive us into bankruptcy? To "protect" our freedom? Bullshit!

Your "free market" health care isn't free. It's a tyranny run by the crooks in charge of the insurance companies, and you're playing right into their hands!
 
H

headband707

Active Member
SDSativa said:
America should also start giving out free food, free housing, free cars, free electricity, free clothes, free college, free everything. Then the government would be in complete control and we would all be so much better off. Lets just all depend on the government to do everything, after all, that is the moral thing to do. I mean, why does that guy deserve to live in a huge house, with 12 cars right. We don't need to do anything for ourselves, we are all human beings. We all deserve to be equal. Isn't food more of a necessity than healthcare? We all need to eat to survive, so why isn't that a fundamental right? What ever happened to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness.
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NO NO NO Americans should go to other countries blow the fuck out of them for what 8 years now costing them what 10 billion a month?? Then wonder where their money hads gone. Then have guns in every block and shot eachother everyday without heathcare too look after eachother. Oh yeah then let the fox's in the hen house in the stock exchange and lose their money that way and blame everyone else wondering where did the money go. Now they are blaming their new President calling him out saying whats going on why are we in this big fucking mess?????? WHAT THE FUCK ppl????? A fucking 5 year old would understand what happened here and you guys are still looking out the window wondering wheres the beef??? I will tell you it's in Bush's pocket!!!! peace out Headband707:wall:
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
doobnVA said:
700,000 people file bankruptcy in the United States every year because of medical bills they can't pay.
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Not that anyone on here expects any of the facts you put forward to be accurate, but let's deal with reality.

744,000 chapter 7 bankruptcies were filed in 2008 and of those, 67% suffered a job loss. If you look all the way back to 1997 the typical family filing for bankruptcy owed more than one and a half times its annual income in short-term, high-interest debt. I doubt that improved much going forward to 2008. Pair that with a job loss and a recession and no surprise.... bankruptcy.

No one is going to argue there were more bankruptcies in 2008 than in the couple of years prior. But considering the unemployment rate and how fast we started shedding jobs last year, why wouldn't there be more bankruptcies. Trying to use the bankruptcy stats in a DISHONEST attempt to make your case only shows how weak you know it is. TRY AGAIN.
 
A

AlBundy

Active Member
For one thing it won't be free. Taxes will be raised while quality of care will go down and besides when are we going to quit taxing the working person to constantly pay for those that don't. Get up off your lazy butt and go to work like the rest of us. You don't have health care but you have money to buy pot....your priorities are way off.
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
No, your mind is backwards Al. Maybe you didn't get the official notification. Having 2 cell phones @ $200 a month and satellite tv service @ $100 a month and a new car payment @ $400/month, high speed internet @ $35 - $60/month and a cigarette habit for mom and dad @ $150 - $200/month are now considered NECESSITIES. They mustn't be factored in to why some families can't afford health care. There certainly are people who are too poor to afford food and shelter, let alone health insurance, but a great many of the uninsured fit this example perfectly.

I know several families and individuals that are uninsured and have EVERY one of the expenses listed above. Fortunately, they aren't hypocrites by supporting a government takeover, but they do go uninsured and wouldn't consider giving up any of those expenses because it would cramp their lifestyle. But the proponents will GLEEFULLY add them to the ranks of impoverished uninsured to make their case.
 
silouan

silouan

Well-Known Member
fellowes said:
Obama said you can keep your doctor you can keep your insurance if you want to keep it and theyll pick up the bill if you dont have insurance but people still bitch WTF do people want they bitch forever finally get it and now dont want it i personally feel people that dont want it to go through are racists why else would they be against it and no im not black :wall::cuss:
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because the people doing your open heart surgery will be former mcdonalds employees.

the "people who don't want it" are not racist, but educated. to make a racial comment as such is nothing shy of pathetic.
 
doobnVA

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Not that anyone on here expects any of the facts you put forward to be accurate, but let's deal with reality.

744,000 chapter 7 bankruptcies were filed in 2008 and of those, 67% suffered a job loss. If you look all the way back to 1997 the typical family filing for bankruptcy owed more than one and a half times its annual income in short-term, high-interest debt. I doubt that improved much going forward to 2008. Pair that with a job loss and a recession and no surprise.... bankruptcy.

No one is going to argue there were more bankruptcies in 2008 than in the couple of years prior. But considering the unemployment rate and how fast we started shedding jobs last year, why wouldn't there be more bankruptcies. Trying to use the bankruptcy stats in a DISHONEST attempt to make your case only shows how weak you know it is. TRY AGAIN.
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How about you try again. The chapter 7 number you came up with isn't even accurate, by the way. Where'd ya find it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/american_journal_of_medicine_09.pdf
 
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headband707

Active Member
MuyLocoNC said:
No, your mind is backwards Al. Maybe you didn't get the official notification. Having 2 cell phones @ $200 a month and satellite tv service @ $100 a month and a new car payment @ $400/month, high speed internet @ $35 - $60/month and a cigarette habit for mom and dad @ $150 - $200/month are now considered NECESSITIES. They mustn't be factored in to why some families can't afford health care. There certainly are people who are too poor to afford food and shelter, let alone health insurance, but a great many of the uninsured fit this example perfectly.

I know several families and individuals that are uninsured and have EVERY one of the expenses listed above. Fortunately, they aren't hypocrites by supporting a government takeover, but they do go uninsured and wouldn't consider giving up any of those expenses because it would cramp their lifestyle. But the proponents will GLEEFULLY add them to the ranks of impoverished uninsured to make their case.
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Okay I'm going to try and make a bit of sense if you guys can hear this. Look we have what you guys term as free health care and your right nothing is free we all pay in taxes etc. It's all relative I would prefer this to the way your doing it. Lets just leave it at that.
The next I guess important point to make here is your going to have a lot of soldiers coming home from the war and they are going to be very fucked up believe me when I say this to you all.... They are going to need the best care and you guys should really try to get behind this care and stop looking at it like it's a Gov. take over as I think you are being lied to and you really don't get it. I would truely suggest that you rent this movie "Sicko" and educate yourself then come back to this board and agrue all you want ! Thanks for listening if you did.. Peace out Headband707:bigjoint:
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
doobnVA said:
How about you try again. The chapter 7 number you came up with isn't even accurate, by the way. Where'd ya find it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/american_journal_of_medicine_09.pdf
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Yeah rather than going to SURVEYS and studies by EXTREMELY left wing universities (which you linked to through one of the top 3 liberal rags still in circulation), I went ahead and went straight to the raw data. Call me crazy but I like to do my own thinking. And my Chapter 7 number is EXACTLY correct... not kinda, not sort of.... EXACTLY CORRECT.

http://www.uscourts.gov
 
OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
I hate to bring up the obvious, but this isn't the change that most people voted for. In fact, unless someone was blind and deaf, Obama represented himself as a moderate. His personality and a press that wouldn't question ANYTHING that came out of his mouth got him elected on a complete sham of campaign. Got to give him props for that. But don't tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing with my own two good eyes. Not to mention that 52% of the popular vote is anything but overwhelming.

EVERY credible poll shows that a majority of Americans have turned against his policies, they still like him, but the vision of our future he denied having during the campaign that is now, oh so apparent is dying a withering death. That is unless you find the NY times poll to be credible.... LOL.



Wow, this sounds like you're arguing against a national system. You do understand that everything listed above is either bankrupt, going bankrupt, bankrupting the states they are in, or provide a level of medical care that most of us would abhor. Yes, lets take the WORST examples of health care in this country and use it as an argument for expansion. You're kidding around with us, right?



Oh and the government is a fine example of lowering overhead and raising efficiency. Again, you MUST be kidding. What parts of the "for profit" system will survive, every version of the bill so far sets the guidelines, entirely, as to how they will be allowed to conduct business. That's called Fascism my friend, I don't need Fox news or anybody to explain it to me. I got a dictionary RIGHT HERE. I'll ask again, are you sure you aren't arguing against nationalized health care? Because you're making my points for me, so it's really gonna be hard to convince me otherwise when you just elaborated how my worst fears will be realized.



Who cares what color he is? I sure as hell don't. If race is such an issue for you, then keep calling everyone against his policies a racist. It's a tired, boring and flaccid argument and it shows your position isn't strong enough to stand on it's own without bringing it up. It's truly pathetic and more importantly, it won't work.



That is the most absurd comment I've seen on here in a while. You aren't for questioning anything. You and the MMM you get your news from would have eagerly let them pass ANY bill before they went on summer break. No questions about content, effectiveness, cost or how it was going to be paid for. They still can't settle on a program among their own ranks, but the House was happy to rubber stamp ANYTHING.....WITHOUT EVEN READING THE DAMN THING. And if it weren't for the uproar, the Senate would have done the exact same thing. So don't even bother with the I'm for questioning everything, let alone anything... It's a flat out lie. Yeah, I said it.
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Did I say our socialist systems we have in place are any good? No, I did not. The jist is that we already have all these various systems in place and socialism didn't destoy us it's not some evil word we need to run from. We have a bunch of broken systems both socialist and for profit, none of the systems we have work. All of the above cost us more than one national system to cover everyone and since none of the systems we have work it's only logical to do away with it all and try again.

Socialized medicine is not a new idea here was the whole point which you completely missed.

And for the record the health care changes are the ONLY changes I'm in favor of so far. I haven't supported bailouts or anything else that's been going on.

It's really stupid to claim you are more aware of what someone stands for than they are. Try to paint me as some stupid fan boy? You don't know me, but that's completely wrong try again.

I've never been a fan of anyone let alone any politician. Are you a christian? I'm not, I'm an athiest. Are you a republican or a democrat? I'm not, I'm an independant. Which of us thinks for himself?
 
Mindmelted

Mindmelted

Well-Known Member
The movie sicko was a bunch off crap just like his 911 movie and bowling for columbine.
They all sucked and where full of bullshit.
Hey kinda like our government.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I hate to bring up the obvious, but this isn't the change that most people voted for. In fact, unless someone was blind and deaf, Obama represented himself as a moderate. His personality and a press that wouldn't question ANYTHING that came out of his mouth got him elected on a complete sham of campaign. Got to give him props for that. But don't tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing with my own two good eyes. Not to mention that 52% of the popular vote is anything but overwhelming.
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You must not have watched the same news I did. Obama was being slammed all over the place.

Or is this argument the one of:

Nobody but our station speaks out against this guy! Well we do on station x. No you don't. Well heck, I guess we don't.

Just because a 'news' company tells you that they are the only ones reporting things, does not make it the case.

EVERY credible poll shows that a majority of Americans have turned against his policies, they still like him, but the vision of our future he denied having during the campaign that is now, oh so apparent is dying a withering death. That is unless you find the NY times poll to be credible.... LOL.
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Again the only reason that people are 'seeing' this, is because they are being told that it is there. Oh look this is socialist agenda! Even if it only has the smallest of links, and is something that the government does, BOOM socialist. Anything = socialist if it is the government, so therefore Obama HAS to be a socialist right?

It is self fullfilling prophecies.

Not that anyone on here expects any of the facts you put forward to be accurate, but let's deal with reality.

744,000 chapter 7 bankruptcies were filed in 2008 and of those, 67% suffered a job loss. If you look all the way back to 1997 the typical family filing for bankruptcy owed more than one and a half times its annual income in short-term, high-interest debt. I doubt that improved much going forward to 2008. Pair that with a job loss and a recession and no surprise.... bankruptcy.

No one is going to argue there were more bankruptcies in 2008 than in the couple of years prior. But considering the unemployment rate and how fast we started shedding jobs last year, why wouldn't there be more bankruptcies. Trying to use the bankruptcy stats in a DISHONEST attempt to make your case only shows how weak you know it is. TRY AGAIN.
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Were bankruptcy laws not made more difficult a few years ago. So if that is the case you would have expected less. But then again it shows the severity of this last years major recession. In these exceptional times, there needs to be much more than usual done.

If Obama is passing 2 trillion dollar stimulus packages in 2011 when this is behind us, I will take offense to it, but for now, it is the best way to do it.
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
OregonMeds said:
Did I say our socialist systems we have in place are any good? No, I did not. The jist is that we already have all these various systems in place and socialism didn't destoy us it's not some evil word we need to run from. We have a bunch of broken systems both socialist and for profit, none of the systems we have work. All of the above cost us more than one national system to cover everyone and since none of the systems we have work it's only logical to do away with it all and try again.

Socialized medicine is not a new idea here was the whole point which you completely missed.

And for the record the health care changes are the ONLY changes I'm in favor of so far. I haven't supported bailouts or anything else that's been going on.

It's really stupid to claim you are more aware of what someone stands for than they are. Try to paint me as some stupid fan boy? You don't know me, but that's completely wrong try again.

I've never been a fan of anyone let alone any politician. Are you a christian? I'm not, I'm an athiest. Are you a republican or a democrat? I'm not, I'm an independant. Which of us thinks for himself?
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Actually I'm an anti-theist and have been an Independent since the days of Ross Perot. And I most certainly think for myself and I haven't ever goose stepped for any politician. Which is why I'm in favor of a 50% reduction in size and power of the Federal government, starting right now.

And I DID get your point about the current level of socialism in this country, but I heartily disagree with your solution. I don't feel the half-ass socialist programs are failing because they aren't large enough, but because they exist at all. They don't belong in our free market, capitalist society, which is why they all go bankrupt. Socialism, or more accurately Fascism has ALWAYS failed throughout history.... ALWAYS.

It doesn't matter that we are the USA, you can put all of the inventiveness and ingenuity of the American spirit into doing it "our way" and it is still DOOMED TO FAILURE. It is a ponzi scheme of the highest order and it cannot sustain itself. I would be perfectly happy if we unwound Social Security (yeah that's right), Medicare, Medicaid, welfare and every other preposterous social program that the progressive movement that began in the 30's has been contaminating us with. They are all defunct and dragging this country down like an anchor.
 
Mindmelted

Mindmelted

Well-Known Member
Social security would have no issues if the gov would keep there hands off of it.And quite using it a loan store.
So lets see,i blew my bacx=k out a young age and since have gotten worse.
So you think by just removing these programs that everything will just be fine.
What a fucking dreamer you are.
 
doobnVA

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Yeah rather than going to SURVEYS and studies by EXTREMELY left wing universities (which you linked to through one of the top 3 liberal rags still in circulation), I went ahead and went straight to the raw data. Call me crazy but I like to do my own thinking. And my Chapter 7 number is EXACTLY correct... not kinda, not sort of.... EXACTLY CORRECT.

http://www.uscourts.gov
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The American Journal of Medicine is a "liberal rag"?

Harvard, Cambridge, and Princeton aren't credible sources for academic studies? Since when?

My apologies, I thought you said 2007 in regards to the chapter 7 figures. There were over a million total bankruptcy filings in 2008. If you read the study, you'd know where the number 700,000 medical-related bankruptcies comes from. I'm thoroughly convinced you won't read it, just to be idignant. This is the number of bankruptcy filings where medical debt was determined to be either the primary or secondary cause.

What are you really so worried about? Poor people getting health care on the taxpayer's dime? Because that already happens.

The fact remains that in countries with "universal" coverage health care COSTS LESS FOR EVERYONE and everyone pays.

What you're worried about happening (the "rich" or well-off pay for the poor) is ALREADY HAPPENING HERE ! The only difference is that our government sets no boundaries on how much our FOR PROFIT health care providers charge for their services, so you pay EVEN MORE than you would if you just sucked it up and paid for it with taxes.
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
You must not have watched the same news I did. Obama was being slammed all over the place.

Or is this argument the one of:

Nobody but our station speaks out against this guy! Well we do on station x. No you don't. Well heck, I guess we don't.

Just because a 'news' company tells you that they are the only ones reporting things, does not make it the case.
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hanimmal, I love ya brother. It has nothing to do with some affinity I have with a particular news organization, it has more to do with getting my information from hard hitting, investigative journalists, not party cheerleaders. It just so happens that Fox, the WSJ, the Washington Times and quite a few others now, are uncovering corruption and exposing blatant lies and deception. If NBC gets back to the business of journalism, I'll watch them more than I do now. And they sure as hell need my viewership (is that even a word?) because they are dying much deserved deaths.

Again the only reason that people are 'seeing' this, is because they are being told that it is there. Oh look this is socialist agenda! Even if it only has the smallest of links, and is something that the government does, BOOM socialist. Anything = socialist if it is the government, so therefore Obama HAS to be a socialist right?

It is self fullfilling prophecies.
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If it walks like a duck, smells like a duck and we have unedited video of it admitting it's a duck... well, again you're going to have a hard time convincing me it's not really a duck, it's just a bald eagle being viciously maligned.

Were bankruptcy laws not made more difficult a few years ago. So if that is the case you would have expected less. But then again it shows the severity of this last years major recession. In these exceptional times, there needs to be much more than usual done.

If Obama is passing 2 trillion dollar stimulus packages in 2011 when this is behind us, I will take offense to it, but for now, it is the best way to do it.
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Exactly, I tried to make the point the number of BK's has gone up due to the recession. If we have to have a stimulus, I'd just like them to spend the money in an area that will create long term jobs. Which, just by looking at the programs the first one funded, we know they will not, cannot and sure as heck aren't doing so far.
 
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