Why Legalization should be Stopped! (wait, hear me out!)

By the way....

Holland's cannabis laws are far from perfect. Coffee-shops can't stock more than 500g, commercial growing is illegal and you can't have more than 5 plants or any horticultural lights for your grow.

Do you think the Dutch should have opposed the law allowing coffeeshops because it didn't go far enough?

In a rational world we would not be having this discussion. Everybody would own themself and begging for that right would be ridiculous.
Marijuana laws are but ONE symptom of the irrationality we must deal with.
It is very apparent we DON'T live in a rational world. I do not support taxation via extortion. I DO support self ownership and consensual exchange and voluntary relationships, where the participants, NOT a 3rd party, decide what the boundaries of self ownership are.

I see legal and tax as a LESSER evil, lesser than illegal and incarcerate, but I do not see either as a "necessary evil". There are no "necessary evils" in my book. From a practical stance, which grudgingly acknowledges where we are, as opposed to where society "should be", I would hold my nose and vote for the legalize and tax. Not because it is the best solution, it isn't, it is again the lesser of two evils. The "best" solution and government involvement in any "best" solution are oxymoronic. (If that's even a word)
The "best" solution is to simply let people own anything they choose as long as their ACTIONS harm no other.

I've worked on some bills in another state and I have to constantly remind myself, when dealing with legislators, law enforcement etc. I am not dealing with rational people, or particularly bright people for that matter. They honestly think by limiting personal liberty "society" benefits.

The substance is irrelevant, when we limit freedom, there are always unintended consequences.

There are growers / dealers that hope this bill fails because they care more about their personal gain from pot sales in an artificially inflated market caused BY prohibition, than freedom itself. How does that make them any different than cops "just doing their job" ?

Wow. I cannot even imagine anyone being against legalization. Listen if you are worried about the quality or being taxed on personal use...you COULD still grow in your closet. I do not see any negatives whatsoever.

Anjinsan said:

Wow. I cannot even imagine anyone being against legalization. Listen if you are worried about the quality or being taxed on personal use...you COULD still grow in your closet. I do not see any negatives whatsoever.

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Good point. However a vote for "legalization" that includes taxation is a tacit recognition that we don't have a natural right to self ownership. It furthers the idea that our "rights" are really priveleges to be sold back to us via taxation or restrictions.
The downside is a person can then be incarcerated for failing to pay the tax (license to own yourself).

Yes, but that is the line of thought that makes the perfect the enemy of the good. In a perfect world, all of us would be able to grow and smoke whatever we like without without ever being taxed. In a good world we might be legally able to grow our own supply if we choose or pay an excise tax on a luxury good we consume if we buy it somewhere.

Let me ask you this, Rob. How do you feel about the liquor store system in NH or VT? The state holds a monopoly on sales on both states, although I do think there's a state tax on it in vermont. I see that as a potential model for commercial cannabis sales, although it would have some problems of it's own....

Once the federal prohibition ends, it will be interesting what kind of models each state adapts for taxing and regulating marijuana.

fdd2blk said:

since when do we want to be taxed and regulated?

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let's all grow up, shall we. we all know that legal weed will be turned into a business and that those profits will be taxed. it's just the nature of the beast. we all know that greed can turn any enterprise abusive and that some regulation will be required to prevent that abuse. it's just the nature of the beast. after decades of this insane prohibition, we can't very well expect the way to be suddenly cleared for the free exchange of any commodity and we can't expect the minions of control to just freely give up their stranglehold. weed is a commodity that will be taxed and an intoxicant that will be regulated.

this is just another of those trial balloons that must be sent up before we can ever hope to gain full legalization. the battle is still being waged over mmj in california, some cities and counties still refuse to allow state law to prevail over federal. if this is passed it will undoubtedly be struck down by the courts or, at the very least, stalled in the ongoing fight over federal supremacy. for the voters to accept this challenge can only further the cause of legalization. if it expands the freedoms of the individual, sometimes a bad law is better than no law at all.

Another hurdle for re-legalization: The DEA. The Feds have been uncharacteristically silent about their intentions once re-legalization becomes a reality. Especially in light of the Immigration imbroglio taking place just across the lower Eastern border from California. Where the Federal government has no problem inserting it's opinion.

And we all know how long it took before MMJ, for all intents and purposes, was removed from the Federal list of priorities.

I say Damn the torpedoes! Tax and regulation are a fact of life in an ordered society, even one that prizes limited government. Which ours, of course, does not for the most part. Fuck it. Press on!

But the only way to get this done is one step at a time, which means one state at a time. California has been most successful in leading the way on this issue. This is not the time to falter.

No law pertaining to re-legalization will ever be perfect. Everybody will have a problem with one section or another. That is simply how life is when you live in a diverse society. In fact, I would not prefer to live in a society where everybody is in agreement on every issue.

That would be very boring; and very creepy.

Here in Oregon, we have until July 2nd to collect 82,000 or so signatures to get OCTA (Oregon Cannabis Tax Act) on the ballot. This would make cannabis legal for adults 21+ with the FUCKING AWESOME kicker of hemp! Here is the summary...

"... Measure replaces state, local marijuana laws except medical marijuana and driving under the influence laws; distinguishes 'hemp' from 'marijuana'; prohibits regulation of hemp. Creates agency to license marijuana cultivation by qualified persons and to purchase entire crop. Agency sells marijuana at cost to pharmacies, medical research facilities, and to qualified adults for profit through state stores. Ninety percent of net proceeds goes to state general fund, remainder to drug education, treatment, hemp promotion. Bans sales to, possession by minors. Bans public consumption except where signs permit, minors barred. Agency to regulate use, set prices, other duties; Attorney General to defend against federal challenges/prosecution. Provides penalties. Effective January 1, 2011"

Tell anyone you know in Oregon to go sign the damn thing and maybe we can get done what California might not. I would love it if Oregon set the way on this one....

so let me get this straight. the state wants to not only regulate and tax weed, but they want to be the sole distributor? this sounds like an even worse idea than california's half-way measure. i previously said that a bad law is sometimes better than no law at all, but this is nothing short of the creation of a state run monopoly. though it does allow recreational use and the creation of a commercial hemp industry, it also hands government even more power to control another block of the economy. i suppose that if the folks in oregon really want to be slaves to the state, this is the way to go.

abe23 said:

Yes, but that is the line of thought that makes the perfect the enemy of the good. In a perfect world, all of us would be able to grow and smoke whatever we like without without ever being taxed. In a good world we might be legally able to grow our own supply if we choose or pay an excise tax on a luxury good we consume if we buy it somewhere.

Let me ask you this, Rob. How do you feel about the liquor store system in NH or VT? The state holds a monopoly on sales on both states, although I do think there's a state tax on it in vermont. I see that as a potential model for commercial cannabis sales, although it would have some problems of it's own....

Once the federal prohibition ends, it will be interesting what kind of models each state adapts for taxing and regulating marijuana.

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Government in NH has failed to admit the hypocritical inconsistency of maintaining a STATE run alcohol cartel while also blocking any form of legalization for cannabis. Gee, big surprise there huh? This is mostly the doing of Governor Lynch and his puppets in the State Senate. His pat excuse regarding cannabis legalization efforts is "it sends the wrong message to the children". I could go on, but bottom line is there will be no legalization in NH unless a veto proof bill is enacted, I think that means a super majority in the legislature. Lynch vows to veto everything, despite the house of representatives coming around on cannabis and passing several cannabis related bills the last few years, the bills are killed in the senate by Lynch's buddies who protect him from controversial issues.

Lynch has problems in the alcohol commission though, out of 3 total commissioners, 1 Commissioner was recently fired for drunk driving and and another suspended for ethical reasons... I wonder if that sends the wrong message to children?

New Hampshire derives mucho revenue from the alcohol sales, and eventually if cannabis is legalized, I expect them to strong arm those sales too. I brew my own beer (which I could buy at a super market). Don't drink much hard stuff and try not to enable the State by buying it from them. I um have some friends that allege it's easy to make Mead and hard liquor, but of course that would be illegal so I, ahem stay away from that.

Vermont at least has medical marijuana, albeit a shitty program when compared to western states. I'm not real sure about their alcohol sales.

When a STATE talks out of both sides of their mouth, they are simply doing what I have come to expect from them.

Friends of mine that are activists have mentioned doing some kind of "educational activism" at the state "owned" liquor stores. I think that would be a good idea as it clearly illustrates the hypocritical nature of cannabis prohibition. I may join them...never know.

I fully expect if legalization comes to ANY state they will follow the extort revenue via taxation and monoply on sales model used by the "live free or die" state. It's too big of a revenue wet dream for a bureaucrat to walk away from.

undertheice said:

so let me get this straight. the state wants to not only regulate and tax weed, but they want to be the sole distributor? this sounds like an even worse idea than california's half-way measure. i previously said that a bad law is sometimes better than no law at all, but this is nothing short of the creation of a state run monopoly. though it does allow recreational use and the creation of a commercial hemp industry, it also hands government even more power to control another block of the economy. i suppose that if the folks in oregon really want to be slaves to the state, this is the way to go.

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That's how liquor sales work in a lot of states....

undertheice said:

so let me get this straight. the state wants to not only regulate and tax weed, but they want to be the sole distributor? this sounds like an even worse idea than california's half-way measure. i previously said that a bad law is sometimes better than no law at all, but this is nothing short of the creation of a state run monopoly. though it does allow recreational use and the creation of a commercial hemp industry, it also hands government even more power to control another block of the economy. i suppose that if the folks in oregon really want to be slaves to the state, this is the way to go.

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Growers could pay $1,000 for a license and sell to these state-run dispensaries with a 10% tax.
I, as a medical grower, could still grow my own (a license hear costs about $100 or so a year)
Read the summary again, it prohibits regulation of hemp.

If growing my own weed while others go out to the state run store to buy it, I'm certainly no slave to the state. Takes it right out of the hands of black market. I could even make a living as a grower LEGALLY (my dream). The only negative is that the state would set the price they pay, oh well. If it is too low, I get out of that and go sewhere else. But I don't think they could price it low enough for me to not keep it as my living.

abe23 said:

That's how liquor sales work in a lot of states....

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Like Utah. Except you can still buy cheap beer and whatnot anywhere...

dukeofbaja said:

Growers could pay $1,000 for a license and sell to these state-run dispensaries with a 10% tax.
I, as a medical grower, could still grow my own (a license hear costs about $100 or so a year)
Read the summary again, it prohibits regulation of hemp.

If growing my own weed while others go out to the state run store to buy it, I'm certainly no slave to the state. Takes it right out of the hands of black market. I could even make a living as a grower LEGALLY (my dream). The only negative is that the state would set the price they pay, oh well. If it is too low, I get out of that and go sewhere else. But I don't think they could price it low enough for me to not keep it as my living.

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You might want to ask some dairy farmers about the government controlled milk prices, might not want to assume there will still be profit for the little guy if the government gets involved. I'm just guessing here but I bet it will be tough for small time growers to compete against large scale operations if weed is legal to consume. I wouldn't get my hopes up. You might make a living for a short time but eventually economies of scale will not favor the little guy.

dukeofbaja said:

The only negative is that the state would set the price they pay, oh well.

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that's a big "oh well". it runs contrary to the concepts of a free market and the individual's ownership of his own labor. it is a form of slavery to the state and an insult to the tenets of the constitution. that some states are backward and corrupt enough to deal with alcohol sales in the same way is no excuse to settle for such authoritarianism. i suppose that if all you're worried about is how it will effect you directly, it's no big deal. you may not mind how it effects our overall liberty. you might be naive enough to believe in the benevolence of the state.

undertheice said:

let's all grow up, shall we. we all know that legal weed will be turned into a business and that those profits will be taxed. it's just the nature of the beast. we all know that greed can turn any enterprise abusive and that some regulation will be required to prevent that abuse. it's just the nature of the beast. after decades of this insane prohibition, we can't very well expect the way to be suddenly cleared for the free exchange of any commodity and we can't expect the minions of control to just freely give up their stranglehold. weed is a commodity that will be taxed and an intoxicant that will be regulated.

this is just another of those trial balloons that must be sent up before we can ever hope to gain full legalization. the battle is still being waged over mmj in california, some cities and counties still refuse to allow state law to prevail over federal. if this is passed it will undoubtedly be struck down by the courts or, at the very least, stalled in the ongoing fight over federal supremacy. for the voters to accept this challenge can only further the cause of legalization. if it expands the freedoms of the individual, sometimes a bad law is better than no law at all.

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but to base a whole campaign on it.

fdd2blk said:

but to base a whole campaign on it.

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this isn't something that has to be sold to you and me, but to a public that has endured decades of reefer madness propaganda. that's what any campaign is, now isn't it, marketing pure and simple. even in california we must convince ma and pa down on the farm that this whole thing is in their best interests. our poor old weed has been vilified for far too long for anyone to simply admit that the whole thing was a big mistake and that all those specialists and government committees have been lying to us for all these years. it must be sold as a cure to our present situation, not as a reversal of years of government incompetence. though it is really a simple matter of citizens owning their own bodies, we must couch it in terms that save face for all those who bought into the lie.

Rob Roy said:

You might want to ask some dairy farmers about the government controlled milk prices, might not want to assume there will still be profit for the little guy if the government gets involved. I'm just guessing here but I bet it will be tough for small time growers to compete against large scale operations if weed is legal to consume. I wouldn't get my hopes up. You might make a living for a short time but eventually economies of scale will not favor the little guy.

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Completely agreed. Perhaps a solution would be to specialize in high quality, hard to replicate, top grade type of strains that larger operations could not match. But that is counting eggs which have not even been made, much less hatched

Come on put the other EXCEPTS in there like; not on Sunday, and I dont know what time they stop selling (in CA its 2A.M.) I would imagine there its prolly 8 or 9 P.M. Like I said I am not positive of the time - it has been 7-8 years since I visited.

dukeofbaja said:

Like Utah. Except you can still buy cheap beer and whatnot anywhere...

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undertheice said:

that's a big "oh well". it runs contrary to the concepts of a free market and the individual's ownership of his own labor. it is a form of slavery to the state and an insult to the tenets of the constitution. that some states are backward and corrupt enough to deal with alcohol sales in the same way is no excuse to settle for such authoritarianism. i suppose that if all you're worried about is how it will effect you directly, it's no big deal. you may not mind how it effects our overall liberty. you might be naive enough to believe in the benevolence of the state.

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You may not be too familiar with the spirit Oregonians bring to this, so I'll let you know. We want free or really cheap medicine for patients that need it. I'm not so sure about recreational users, but with respect to medical users, there would be very little money in it for a grower if whatever agency is in charge of setting prices set them according to these wishes. So then the question becomes benevolent to who? Benevolent to the folks while not so much for the growers? Even if it was super cheap for medical users, you wouldn't have to upcharge a whole lot for a grower to make a living off recreational users. Not to mention one could still grow their own weed. This is hardly the authoritarian regime you have so much fun constantly typing about.