Why do so many ppl dog Arjan?

la9 said:

If the plant is good weed does the name really matter ?

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For a moment think about how there are or at least have been roughly two dozen different varieties all called White Widow and then ask yourself if name matters when it comes to sales.

If not why would so many different breeders make crosses and call them White Widow?

They may be from the same general strains of plants as the original but they are genetically different so why not come up with their own name for what is all actuality is their own strain?
　
It is called marketing and most breeders do it. Not all, but most.
　
Myself if I were one I would be more likely to think up a new name if I happened on a cross that was from the same strains as another quality strain but still genetically different. I would prefer to have my work have its own name.

But if you research past Cup winners you will find that a number of different breeders have entered their own version of a previous winner or big name strain and won.

Why? The idea is that the name gets your foot in the door and then you hope the buzz will get you the rest of the way, but originally you still rely on the name and then hope people will believe your product is superior to other breeders same named strain(s).
　
If someone is convinced they want to grow NYC Diesel and you offer a really fantastic cross made from the same strains and you call if Bigfoot or something you will likely as not get their business but if you name it NYC Diesel you have a shot at their dollars and if your cross is impressive enough they will purchase more and they will tell their friends and they will spread the word like wildfire on sites like this and before long your pseudo-NYC Diesel is considered to be real NYC Diesel and sells like hotcakes.

So again it is all marketing. First get your foot in the door, that’s what really counts because without that the rest will not follow, and then let your work take over. That is the intelligent business decision to make.

Andre Linoge said:

For a moment think about how there are or at least have been roughly two dozen different varieties all called White Widow and then ask yourself if name matters when it comes to sales.

If not why would so many different breeders make crosses and call them White Widow?

They may be from the same general strains of plants as the original but they are genetically different so why not come up with their own name for what is all actuality is their own strain?
　
It is called marketing and most breeders do it. Not all, but most.
　
Myself if I were one I would be more likely to think up a new name if I happened on a cross that was from the same strains as another quality strain but still genetically different. I would prefer to have my work have its own name.

But if you research past Cup winners you will find that a number of different breeders have entered their own version of a previous winner or big name strain and won.

Why? The idea is that the name gets your foot in the door and then you hope the buzz will get you the rest of the way, but originally you still rely on the name and then hope people will believe your product is superior to other breeders same named strain(s).
　
If someone is convinced they want to grow NYC Diesel and you offer a really fantastic cross made from the same strains and you call if Bigfoot or something you will likely as not get their business but if you name it NYC Diesel you have a shot at their dollars and if your cross is impressive enough they will purchase more and they will tell their friends and they will spread the word like wildfire on sites like this and before long your pseudo-NYC Diesel is considered to be real NYC Diesel and sells like hotcakes.

So again it is all marketing. First get your foot in the door, that’s what really counts because without that the rest will not follow, and then let your work take over. That is the intelligent business decision to make.

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I'm with you, I'd rather have an original name and stand out on my own. In the end if you built up the name then everyone would start copying to get their sales up and you just end up like everyone else in the crowd. Leaving you scratching your head if it was worth all the extra effort.

I agree with subcool and others that think the cannabis cup is a joke, along with arjan. Cali weed would beat amsterdam weed hands down! Amsterdam's genetics are all old and stagnant and the gene pool is very slim. DNA genetics are keeping it somewhat fresh, they are about the only good breeders in the dam. It's all about money in the dam, and their genetics aren't great either. DNA has some good genetics, but besides that, its few and far between. Stick with subcool, elite, grindhouse, ect.

la9 said:

Also he has a habit of naming his strains whatever is popular at the time and takes credit for it, some discussion on whether you are really buying that strain or not, or just something he grew and put a popular name on. Like I think alaskan ice is some rare strain no one has, and all the sudden he names one of his strains alaskan ice and starts selling it. Most people think they are buying the original alaskan ice when they are probably just buying a plant he bred and named it that.

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Too true, bro! He has a "Bubba Kush" coming out soon, and it isn't even the original, and can't even compare to the original 96 cut! But he seems to try to be advertising it as just "Bubba Kush", kind of misleading. Also his Cheese and Trainwreck are all poor phenos of the original potent trich covered pheno. Terrible rip off. I wouldn't even call him a breeder, he is more of a salesman. A bobble head? Give me a break...

"A bobble head?"

That's funny, made me laugh

I do not agree that genetics are lacking in the various breeders lines but what I do believe has happened is a lot of pressure has been brought on breeders to continually come out with ‘exciting’ new strains. So often I hear or read where someone is asking what the best NEW strain is. They believe if it is not new it is not top of the line when that is just not the case. But because so many people think newer is better breeders are under pressure to release new strains more often than in the past and no one no matter what genetics they have in their ‘bank’ can continually turn out gems. It just cannot be done.
　
You also need to consider what breeders have to work with. If they want to work with landrace strains to begin with for a new creation they are somewhat limited in numbers, all of them. How many crosses can you make using landrace strains? Sooner or later every cross that can be made will be made. After that they have to rely on crossing other creations with different landrace strains or with other crosses. At that point what genetics are they really working with? The same genetics that have been mixed before and eventually they have to reach a point of diminishing returns.
　
It seems that some breeders have at least to some degree gone in for what I consider to be gimmicks. In some cases flavor and color and odor have become goals now more than potency and yield. That is just about all that some have left to strive for. It is not because they lack genetics but instead because there is only so much that can be done with them, or at least all that is presently known that can be done with them.
　
Average levels of quality are so high that creating true standouts is very difficult. That makes the best seem not all that much better than what is average but it is not because the best is not good but instead because what is considered to be average is in fact very good.
　
Something else that I believe held back some breeders was the indica craze. The days of the true sativa died out and the couch-lock stone became the norm. Many smokers have never experienced what getting high actually is and to them getting stoned is what toking is all about and what it has always been all about.

When indoor growing became more popular shorter heavier producing plants with a shorter flowering periods became the rage and most smokers were already conditioned to say give me an indica stone so more breeding effort went into creating shorter heavier producing plants and that meant more indica.

To people who never experienced many strains from the past they believe a heavy body stone means potency so they believed what they got from many newer crosses was ultra potent. But unless more sativa is bred into some strains the potency will not improve but breeding in more sativa will give people something they do not want as much when it comes to plant size/height and flowering time. So how will breeders improve their lines when what it will take to improve them will create things that many people do not want regardless of its potency?
　
Look at how many people ask for strain advice on sites like this and say they want a heavy producing short flowering time strain. Look at how many people will say how they do not and may never grow certain strains or say that people who do grow certain strains are crazy because of the long flowering time and the lower yield. How will a breeder sell them on something that they are dead set against because of those things? Winning some award or awards alone will not be enough to convince many people to give them a try.
　
The result is that things have become somewhat stagnant when it comes to true standout strains and what has changed the most is the upping the level of quality in what is considered to be average quality strains. It is partially because so many strains that were never destined for stardom have been released, due to the ‘I want the new hot strain’ mentality of many growers but also because while real standouts were still being created with some frequency past top strains then were relegated as average strains.

They were top of the world one day and middle of the road the next. They did not change, they did not decrease in quality but were instead surpassed in quality by other strains thus raising the bar for average level strains more than raising the bar for top quality strains. But the continuation of true top strains has not progressed as it did in the past and the difference between average and the best is not as much as it once was making the best appear to be less impressive rather than making average quality strains look more impressive as it should be seen.
　
You can only slice a pie into so many pieces and if after you have reached that point you continue to try to cut each slice thinner all you get is a mess that no one enjoys all that much and that is possibly the point we are quickly reaching or may have already reached.
　
Of course no breeder will ever admit to that because their livelihood relies on their continuing to create what they can sell as being new hot lick strains and their ‘importance’ and their egos rely on it too so the last thing they would ever say is that things may be reaching the end of the road.

Instead they will say the number of crosses that can still be made is limitless and quality will continue to improve. But since all genetics do go back to landrace strains eventually every combination of landrace strains that will be a real improvement will be made along with every combination of crossing crosses that will be a real improvement will be made.

What comes next?

to serve man said:

Too true, bro! He has a "Bubba Kush" coming out soon, and it isn't even the original, and can't even compare to the original 96 cut!

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As it has been pointed out most breeders versions of different strains of the same name are not the same as the original so Arjan should not have his feet held to the fire over making his own version of something any more than any other breeder who does the very same thing.
　
I did have to wonder how you came to the conclusion that Arjan’s yet to be released Bubba Kush; "can’t compare to the original 96 cut?"

I am not saying that you are wrong but since it has not yet been released what do you have to go by?

Has there been tests made of it and the results published or are you only assuming?

I do doubt that it will be the equal of the original 96 cut but since it is not yet marketed I think it might be a bit early to damn it.

I like the part about how they're more interested in taste and looks... right now, the purple kush is all the rage, and frankly, it's not that potent...but they want that over better strains...sure it tastes great....but so does ice cream! the main purpose of weed is to light you up, taste is nice, but people lose the point of the matter worrying about bag appeal...the best weed I've ever smoked had the worst bag appeal- dark green musty thai weed...bag appeal..(2)...smell...(3)...buzz..(11).tripping paraniod cringe!

like with the s.c.shark, I at least make a distinction when making knockoffs...around here, the big thing is exclusivity...which is why I do crosses. with this many people growing, you have to stand out...or follow the herd.

s.c.mtn.hillbilly said:

I like the part about how they're more interested in taste and looks... right now, the purple kush is all the rage, and frankly, it's not that potent...but they want that over better strains...sure it tastes great....but so does ice cream! the main purpose of weed is to light you up, taste is nice, but people lose the point of the matter worrying about bag appeal...the best weed I've ever smoked had the worst bag appeal- dark green musty thai weed...bag appeal..(2)...smell...(3)...buzz..(11).tripping paraniod cringe!

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What was likely the best pot I ever smoked was a sort of drab olive green with a little light brown mixed in, the odor was not really appealing, it tasted like dirt and it was not at all resinous. But just a couple hits had true hardcore tokers, well-trained highly experienced party commandos, saying no mas, no mas.
　
But something like that could not be marketed today with any success. It wasn’t a really keen pretty color and it didn’t smell like some sort of fruit and it didn’t taste like candy and it wasn’t dripping with so much thick sticky resin that you could use it for glue to wallpaper the entire White House and it didn’t give you a yield that you needed a dump truck to haul it away with.
　
All it did was put you farther out in space than we all are from galactic central point so why would anyone want that when they can instead have keen pretty colors and fruit and candy odor and taste and something really gooey and something that gives you tons of a far less potent yield?
　
After all aren’t those things far more important to many these days? If you do not believe so check out three or four or so sites like this and see what people say they love and what they say they want the most or what they are looking for and see what they say really impresses or impressed them the most.

purple tastes like dirt and flowers. gross.

all purpled don't taste the same im sure there are some good ones out there that have been crossed with something tasty

Andre Linoge said:

I did have to wonder how you came to the conclusion that Arjan’s yet to be released Bubba Kush; "can’t compare to the original 96 cut?"

I am not saying that you are wrong but since it has not yet been released what do you have to go by?

Has there been tests made of it and the results published or are you only assuming?

I do doubt that it will be the equal of the original 96 cut but since it is not yet marketed I think it might be a bit early to damn it.

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Because I've smoked it and seen it grown. A buddy of mine had some BETA seeds of it that he got from the Dam last year. He grew out all five seeds and only 2 of them were frosty. He grew them all out and they were all very mild, to say the least. It's obvious that they choose shitty phenos to cross with, and I have a feeling that greenhouse does that all the time. I highly doubt that Arjan even breeds anything. The guy is a joke. He is the self-proclaimed "King Of Cannabis", and he breeds shit. Like subcool said, its easy to win Cannabis Cup's when you are shoving your weed in kids faces, when those kids are probably used to schwag at home. Go to the HT Cannabis Cup one time, and you'll see the cock-sucking that goes on.

why, i will tell you why! because they sell FAKE cheese, FAKE trainwreck, FAKE chemdog,fake og kush & stole flying dutchmans thai tantic,made f2's & renamed it to suit them..on top of the GAY ass utube videos where arjan waves the bunk arjan haze around like its soo killer...& SELF proclaimed himself the king of cannabis, LMMFAO

i wouldnt grow shit from them is to weak for me

ILLEGAL NATURE 420 said:

I mean the Greenhouse Company has won 31 cups and offer some of the best prices on the net. They even have grow videos of a alot of their strains on Youtube. Yet you still see alot of ppl talking down on em. And whats up with rollitup's obsession with Nirvana? They are an inferior quality company but they get promoted like gods on this site!

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kings kush & kaya kush are stolen strains FROM ME! i sent their partner apothicary seeds several diff 5-10 count seed packs & they stole my shit & renamed it

ILLEGAL NATURE 420 said:

They don't ship directly, but im growing their King's Kush now. And Nirvana is shit IMO.

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exactly homie you wont see anything coming from the DAM or greenhouse seeds looking like this,with this extreme potency

s.c.mtn.hillbilly said:

"I am the king of all cannabis!".....yeah! right! it's called EGO...just ask franco on a bad day!.....high times sold out before it moved to N.Y.city...and they do play faves-think I'm wrong?....why do the west coast strains blow the cup winners away? amsterdam is yesteryear, and falling behind fast! and when h.t. declares pineapple punch plant of the year?!!! c'mon...it's o.k. weed at best! makes me wanna' buy some fake weed, because some cute naked dutch prostitute posed with it! if you're running adds like that, YOU HAVE SOLD OUT! you're selling bunk to the public, because they paid for the advertising?!!! 2 words to H.T: BUH- BYE!!!!

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thats cuz 1/2 his shit is FAKES..he posted pix of his bubba kush & they were all sativa n shit,lmao..

to serve man said:

Too true, bro! He has a "Bubba Kush" coming out soon, and it isn't even the original, and can't even compare to the original 96 cut! But he seems to try to be advertising it as just "Bubba Kush", kind of misleading. Also his Cheese and Trainwreck are all poor phenos of the original potent trich covered pheno. Terrible rip off. I wouldn't even call him a breeder, he is more of a salesman. A bobble head? Give me a break...

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May I just say that Arjan is a thief and Greenhouse seeds are total bunk. Worst seeds I've ever grown out. 3 hermies and 2 males from 20 ''supposed'' 100 percent female seeds. That percentage is coming straight off the greenhouse website. Absolute shit and little or no customer support. Never again will I deal with Greenhouse. There are 100's of much better strains to be got for a fraction of the cost of these. Any one of the Nirvana line will outgrow Greenhouse. For m though, its back to ol reliable Sensi Seeds.

i would never say greenhouse is all bunk,i have some greenhouse genetics that i would put up against any 8 week finisher out their,it has as much crystal as any picture put on this board,it even has the old biker story about its history some i know to be true,some i say bullshit,but doesnt matter it is a-1.greenhouse are like all breeders today looking for that special cutting.all the pioneering work has already been done by war vets and hippies.now everyone is mix matching all the some genetics.that is why i maintain you can get a good mom from a pack of 12 seeds for 35 dollars.their really is no need to spend big money on seeds.i want to get bc roadkill for 35 dollars it produced some great smoke.no one really knows the genetic background of what they have,its not like they kept records like a racehorse or dog kennel.soon you will see the market saturated with seeds,all claiming something.but everyone has access to the same genetics.people say the new breeders are surpassing the old,well the new breeders all got their genetics from the old seed lots.when i read about some new strain and it will be ready within the year,you know its bs.to select and breed seed lots,and stabalise takes years in my books.by the time you see the impact on a male with one female does not mean that male is a stud with others,some are some are not.what ive noticed is all the nanners popping up in todays genetics are the amount turning hermie 3 weeks in.but seed sales are a competive business,their is a lot of money to be made,so everyone is slamming everyone.i like my plants and the most i spent on seeds was 70 dollars,the average is 50 for 12.so i would not buy greenhouse today at their prices,and i dont think they care to improve,they are just mixing and matching and changeing the name to whats in style.

Elite Genetics said:

thats cuz 1/2 his shit is FAKES..he posted pix of his bubba kush & they were all sativa n shit,lmao..

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Couldn't agree more! I saw those same pics and thought the same thing bro!