Why Can't Nute Companies Tell the Truth?

homebrewer said:

Transparency is not a good thing for companies like AN or H&G who want you to believe that plant nutrition is about more than the 16 essential elements and that non-NPK type additives make all the difference in someone's grow.

The truly sad part is that there are going to be a lot of uneducated growers who will totally believe that bullshit article.

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So then I take it you don't believe in compost tea? Humic or fulvic acid? Beneficial organisms? Root secretions? To be clear: I'm no AN fanboy, I don't use them.
You are correct that basic plant health depends upon the essential 16-17 elements, but there is a vast area of growing that you're neglecting if that's all you look at. Yes you can grow healthy plants that way. You can grow better, healthier plants by encouraging a healthy soil life and possibly by activating the SAR response in your plants. I think you're being pretty thick headed about the science behind growing.

Do you really believe there is nothing left to discover about how plants function? Just the 16 elements and that's it? Again, I know you can grow perfectly good plants chemically, but that does not mean it's the best way.

Wolverine97 said:

So then I take it you don't believe in compost tea?

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Last time I checked, compost teas have an NPK rating.

Humic or fulvic acid?

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I use them when I remember to and find that certain products that contain these aid in resin production, BUT in the blind tests I conducted, that extra resin made no difference in the quality of the smoke.

Beneficial organisms?

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I've tested them and have a journal about them.

Root secretions?

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Never heard of them in product form.

You are correct that basic plant health depends upon the essential 16-17 elements, but there is a vast area of growing that you're neglecting if that's all you look at. Yes you can grow healthy plants that way. You can grow better, healthier plants by encouraging a healthy soil life and possibly by activating the SAR response in your plants. I think you're being pretty thick headed about the science behind growing.

Do you really believe there is nothing left to discover about how plants function? Just the 16 elements and that's it? Again, I know you can grow perfectly good plants chemically, but that does not mean it's the best way.

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If the average grower's nutrient line-up was compared to a plate of food, the steak, potatoes and the side salad would be all the NPK products. All those other bottles (aminos, carbs, humics, etc) that are outrageously priced and prey on the ignorance and pipe dreams of growers would be the chocolate that I put in my milk to accompany my meal.

Use them or don't use them, I don't care either way. But the difference between using non-NPK type products and not using them is so negligible and subjective that half the time I don't even bother adding them to my res or my dirt pots because that's how little difference they actually make.

I think this is going off on a tangent here in a sense, while being in basic agreement.

There ARE amendments that work great. The difference is, they are available dirt cheap (mycorrhizae for $10/LB for instance), or in fancy bottles with cute names for outrageous prices (Great White?).

The 'secret ingredient' in Super Thrive comes from alfalfa meal. Kelp meal or extract is a basis for a lot of rocket fuels. Humic/Fulvic acid is available for 1/10 the price of stuff being touted for mj use.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN !!!!!!!!

There is plenty of old stuff being re-labeled/re-packaged, jacked WAY up in price and being sold to inexperienced growers and these nute companys want to make you think they have come up with something new. They haven't, besides the pretty labels, cute names and prices that should include a lubricant along with a kiss, cause they sure are fucking you.

Wet

homebrewer said:

Last time I checked, compost teas have an NPK rating.

I use them when I remember to and find that certain products that contain these aid in resin production, BUT in the blind tests I conducted, that extra resin made no difference in the quality of the smoke.

I've tested them and have a journal about them.

Never heard of them in product form.

If the average grower's nutrient line-up was compared to a plate of food, the steak, potatoes and the side salad would be all the NPK products. All those other bottles (aminos, carbs, humics, etc) that are outrageously priced and prey on the ignorance and pipe dreams of growers would be the chocolate that I put in my milk to accompany my meal.

Use them or don't use them, I don't care either way. But the difference between using non-NPK type products and not using them is so negligible and subjective that half the time I don't even bother adding them to my res or my dirt pots because that's how little difference they actually make.

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Yeah there is an NPK value to compost tea, though that's not the purpose of using them. It's the beneficials you're after. I agree that most of the stuff out there is snake oil, and nutrient companies prey on people's ignorance. I think you're dead wrong when you say that the difference between using beneficials, humic/fulvic, and SAR stimulating don't make a big difference. In my setup, the difference is huge.

I'm not really sure why I brought this up, I knew what I'd be in for. It just bothers me that anytime someone starts talking about potential benefits from some of the new products that are out now you immediately go to the 16 elements routine. There's a lot of new research happening, and I think people should keep an open mind. The world is round after all.

Wetdog said:

I think this is going off on a tangent here in a sense, while being in basic agreement.

There ARE amendments that work great. The difference is, they are available dirt cheap (mycorrhizae for $10/LB for instance), or in fancy bottles with cute names for outrageous prices (Great White?).

The 'secret ingredient' in Super Thrive comes from alfalfa meal. Kelp meal or extract is a basis for a lot of rocket fuels. Humic/Fulvic acid is available for 1/10 the price of stuff being touted for mj use.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN !!!!!!!!

There is plenty of old stuff being re-labeled/re-packaged, jacked WAY up in price and being sold to inexperienced growers and these nute companys want to make you think they have come up with something new. They haven't, besides the pretty labels, cute names and prices that should include a lubricant along with a kiss, cause they sure are fucking you.

Wet

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It's not that things are "new", it's that they're now being made readily available to the general public. Twenty years ago you couldn't go to your local hydro store and pick up some trichoderma, biological bloom stimulators, or the current enzyme products that are available. It all depends upon your individual setup, if you're running in rockwool most of the things I'm talking about won't be of great benefit. There are advances being made in the world of indoor gardening, whether people acknowledge it or not.

I'm officially checking out of this discussion because I can see it becoming way too time consuming, and ultimately pointless.

To HB post # 20. Gosh, I do respect you HB, but I am having a hard time with your "evidence". A study done 13 years ago on corn and sorghum fer cryin' out loud? And no specific brand names are even mentioned.
The study concludes by clearly stating the following:
"However,many such
products have not been scientifi-
cally evaluated. As a result, the best
advice that can be given to grow-
ers is to evaluate new products
carefully and insist upon local or
regional research data (not testimo-
nials) demonstrating product effec-
tiveness and value.
The purpose of this publication
is not to suggest that all current
and/or future non-traditional soil
additives are of no value. As new
inventions and new products are
developed they may have the
potential to improve crop yields,
crop quality and/or production economics.
However, proper
product testing and evaluation
are critical to verifying the poten-
tial benefits of new and unproven
materials.
And what is your response to all the growers that have posted positive testamonials praising these products? Do you really think that all of them are fools that are just imagining their results? I for one use liquid Karma...I don't know what's in it, and don't care...the shit works! And I don't think it's the 0.1% of Nitrogen or the 0.1% of Phosphate, nor the .05% potash that's making all the difference. But I have to give you credit, I asked for evidence and you provided it. I just don't think it holds water.
I also remain interested/fascinated/concerned with the frustration that the guy from Rosebud feels at not being able to list all ingredients on his label because some govt. agency that is under the thumb of big Agri Business tells him he can't. And that the Good ol' Boys and their nutrient companies benefit the most from the current labeling laws. Companies that don't even have research depts. I found it disturbing that govt. fertilizer regulators censor what nutrients companies can tell you on their websites. I am in the Great Green state of Oregon, where, if I were to go to the web site, it would show me a censored website that is complient with the state. That just doesn't sound right to me. I was interested to learn this after reading this "bullshit article". btw, after reading the article, I in no way was motivated to buy any Av. Nute products. So, if it's manipulative advertising, it's not very effective.

Wolverine97 said:

I'm officially checking out of this discussion because I can see it becoming way too time consuming, and ultimately pointless.

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Ditto and co signed.

Wet

Just take a look at other industries to see the effects of marketing. Take hair shampoo for instance. Consumer reports has said for many years that the basic ingredients in ALL shampoos are the same and that basically soap is soap, yet look at the number of products on the market. Each catering to the needs of the consumer. some folks just NEED to spend more than others.

Many of these companies are honest hard working companies that ad value by giving advice and making it simple. Others need to get the highest ROI so they can afford to go to eastern europe and film beauty pagents for their eye candy section of their glossy magazine that features celebrities on the cover which of course are all designed to distract you and excite you into making a purchasing decision based on emotion rather than logic. I mean who doesn't want the grand master kit with the founders 100% moneyback guarantee so you can acheive 40% greater yields of these high value crops! F' the starter kit! I want it all.

I would venture to guess that the nutients that these comanies sell are the least expensive component in their product. The packaging, advertising, shipping probably all exceed the cost of the ingredients.

i felt like a real ass when I realized i paid 65.00 for a gallon of GH sweetner only to realize it was diluted molasses, would have felt even worse if I had paid 65.00 for a liter of bud candy

Wolverine97 said:

. I think you're dead wrong when you say that the difference between using beneficials, humic/fulvic, and SAR stimulating don't make a big difference. In my setup, the difference is huge.

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I'm not organic, maybe you are. That could account for the difference.

I'm not really sure why I brought this up, I knew what I'd be in for. It just bothers me that anytime someone starts talking about potential benefits from some of the new products that are out now you immediately go to the 16 elements routine. There's a lot of new research happening, and I think people should keep an open mind. The world is round after all.

Click to expand...

I've tried the aminos and carbs and beneficials and the boosters and the sea kelps with humics etc, etc. They're not a waste of money necessarily but by far the biggest gains in quality and quantity you'll ever see is by giving your plants the essentials in good ratios and in the amounts that the plants handle well. Nine out of ten growers on this site have no business giving their opinions on what works and what doesn't as they can't even keep their plants healthy past the 4th week of flower. I'm not saying that's you but a lot of the seasoned and talented growers around here have similar attitudes about plant care and what's actually needed.

Jack Larson said:

To HB post # 20. Gosh, I do respect you HB, but I am having a hard time with your "evidence". A study done 13 years ago on corn and sorghum fer cryin' out loud? And no specific brand names are even mentioned.

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I suppose you'd want nothing less than a study that uses the 'brands' of today and acres and acres of cannabis as the test crop. Sorry, those sorts of studies do not exist. But as the article says, do what you want.

As someone else stated, this is getting a little off topic. I just found the AN article laughable as that would be their rebuttal against the 'forget the fancy label, just turn the bottle around to see what's actually in it' argument. But as fat mike says, their products have "...a whole bunch of other goodies" and I just wish I was smart enough to know what the hell he's referring to .

Educate yourself, and go organic! That's what I'm trying to do.

[video=youtube;-rqGzkqHneg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rqGzkqHneg[/video]

Reminded me of this video, lol.

that's friggen funny!

Hay buddaluv00 bro...

you can search for the better result in this topic in rollitup search section.
you can also join the discussion group to find your proper answer.

homebrewer said:

I'm not organic, maybe you are. That could account for the difference.

I've tried the aminos and carbs and beneficials and the boosters and the sea kelps with humics etc, etc. They're not a waste of money necessarily but by far the biggest gains in quality and quantity you'll ever see is by giving your plants the essentials in good ratios and in the amounts that the plants handle well. Nine out of ten growers on this site have no business giving their opinions on what works and what doesn't as they can't even keep their plants healthy past the 4th week of flower. I'm not saying that's you but a lot of the seasoned and talented growers around here have similar attitudes about plant care and what's actually needed.

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I don't disagree with that statement, and I would say that the divide between organic and chemical does account for the difference. I don't think you can get the full benefit from a good microherd using chemical nutrients because they kill off a lot of the micro-life. The root secretions comment was in reference to the SAR response in plants and the effect one plant can have on its neighbor in a shared bed soil grow. That's just my opinion, and I do respect yours, but I think you can be a little closed minded at times. I know you grow great plants using your system, so I'm not knocking it at all. I just think that there's always room for improvement.

Ok, now I'm checking out of the discussion because I have a very busy couple of days ahead of me....

Wolverine97 said:

I don't disagree with that statement, and I would say that the divide between organic and chemical does account for the difference. I don't think you can get the full benefit from a good microherd using chemical nutrients because they kill off a lot of the micro-life.
Ok, now I'm checking out of the discussion because I have a very busy couple of days ahead of me....

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Salts aka chemicals kill off the microherd? How do you know that? Organics ARE chemicals or they would have no effect.

The eco green movement is as disengenious and at fault when it comes to real world facts as the (snake) oil companies. I'm hyper organic as I know what the benefits really are. I'm also a chemical guy. The best of both worlds if you're a soil grower is to combine organics with box salts (plant food). The amino acids and other additives stuff is just a bunch of sales bunk.

UB

I will say this as easy as possible. True organic growing does not come in a bottle.

I get better stuff for free with help from nature than you all bottle nute users.

+ Rep for you DOM. That was the funniest thing I've seen in a while.

Wet

homebrewer said:

Transparency is not a good thing for companies like AN or H&G who want you to believe that plant nutrition is about more than the 16 essential elements and that non-NPK type additives make all the difference in someone's grow.

The truly sad part is that there are going to be a lot of uneducated growers who will totally believe that bullshit article.

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Hey, don't bring House and Garden into this...

'Chemical' nutrients didn't seem to have any adverse affects on Great White when I was testing it in my hydro trays. So when you think something is 'killing off the micro life' because it's not giving the plants a lot of noticeable benefits, it's more like the micro life isn't needed when using 'chemical' nutrients.

homebrewer said:

'Chemical' nutrients didn't seem to have any adverse affects on Great White when I was testing it in my hydro trays. So when you think something is 'killing off the micro life' because it's not giving the plants a lot of noticeable benefits, it's more like the micro life isn't needed when using 'chemical' nutrients.

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That's true to an extent, in my belief.