Who says LED and CMH can't get along?
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Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
This is a very interesting topic. Mainly because even scientists can't agree!
There was a study in 2010 that proposed stomata opening and closing was a function of total radiation absorbed by the leaf (increase in leaf temperature), as opposed to the traditional theory that blue and red light were the main drivers of stomatal function based on chlorophyl absorption and rate of photosynthesis: blue being the main driver, followed by red, with a compounding effect with the addition of both wavelengths.
Simplified, the 2010 study says leaf temperature is the main driver of transpiration (leaf cooling), whilst the traditional theory says it is a combination of leaf temperature and photosynthesis (humidity and other factors aside).
When stomata open, they "inhale" CO2 and "exhale" water vapour in a process known as transpiration. Transpiration cools the leaf through evaporation, and draws nutrients (mainly Calcium and Magnesium) from the roots through the stem – a bit like the way a straw sucks things up when negative pressure (evaporation) is applied at the other end.
When more light hits a plant, it needs to transpire more because a) more light = more photosynthesis = more CO2 demand; and b) light that is not photosynthesised is converted to heat energy that needs to be released through evaporative cooling.
There is also a relationship between transpiration and Ca and Mg uptake, as both these elements play a part in the physiological opening and closing of stomata.
What is interesting is that stomata guard cells also have blue light receptors that act independently of photosynthesis, possibly to dissipate the extra energy of blue light.
Here is an extract of the 2010 study: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100712154424.htm
And here is a 2011 study disputing the above findings: https://www.pnas.org/content/108/49/19820
What this all means for LED vs HID is that although LED mostly lacks infrared, the extra blue and red light would appear to more than make up for it. It also means that beyond stomatal opening due to heat energy build-up, infrared is not photosynthesised whereas PAR is. Where heat is beneficial is when it provides metabolic warmth during cold periods that slow plant metabolism, as well as transpiration.
If your growing environment is already warm enough, then there doesn't appear to be any benefit to adding infrared light in the form of HIDs.
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
Mate, post up some pix!
If anyone else wants to add their HID + LED grow photos to this thread please do.
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't mind using both either. When I first started growing, I knew nothing at all besides if you give a plant water and sun it grows. That's it. I was always under the impression LED runs much much cooler so that's why I went with LED. IF I knew then what I know now, my lights would be different.
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
Yes and no. Compared to HIDs, LEDs convert more electrical energy to photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) and less energy to infrared radiation. This means you need fewer watts of LED (typically two thirds) to produce the same amount of PAR as CMH or HPS – which is where the common misconception that LEDs run "cooler" than HIDs comes from.
But there are other considerations.
All radiation is energy. Energy can be stored or transferred. Heat is a measure of energy transfer. So all light is eventually converted to heat.
However, plants absorb light – along with water and carbon dioxide – to make carbohydrates as part of an endothermic reaction (photosynthesis) that the plant uses and stores for energy to build biomass. This means light energy that is photosynthesised is not immediately converted to heat – not until much later, when the biomass breaks down as part of an exothermic reaction that releases it.
Infrared energy on the other hand is not photosynthesised. And it is absorbed by water much faster than visible light (PAR). This means it transfers its energy much faster – because all living things are mostly made of water.
The realty is 600W of LED produces the same amount of heat as 600W of HPS but transfers its heat in different ways and at different rates.
hybridway2
Amare Shill
How hot cuz 76-78/78-82 has treated me well.
Led fixture's don't have ir or white led diodes don't have IR?
hybridway2
Amare Shill
Rather than using the often times false or squewed info you gather to use to advise others. Why not try only advising from experience. Therefor more incorrecet info or opinions will not be pressed as factual w/o knowing the fact for yourself.
This is how so much false info or bro-science gets thrown around as facts, then spread like a disease.[/QUOTE]
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
I report to the T what I see and do in my garden.
hybridway2
Amare Shill
I report to the T what I see and do in my garden.
[/QUOTE]
Nice!
Me too & that's how it should be. No more, no less. Besides new ideas to share & learn.
There are many whom just read & re-dribble. With authority too. Funny stuff!
[/QUOTE]
Nice!
Me too & that's how it should be. No more, no less. Besides new ideas to share & learn.
There are many whom just read & re-dribble. With authority too. Funny stuff!
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
its because bad growers run out if smoke and then resort to the forum to vent their anger... LOL
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower
Well-Known Member
Nice!
Me too & that's how it should be. No more, no less. Besides new ideas to share & learn.
There are many whom just read & re-dribble. With authority too. Funny stuff!
[/QUOTE]
….and that's the problem. I am legit showing people I am getting great results with the Mars Hydro lights I am using....but yet people just argue and say well this lights better but it costs more. Well yea I am sure but I don't argue what's better. I just show what's working.
Kushash
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
Your post reflects what I've been thinking the last few days in the Problem section.
Not related to sadmadmarsgrower or anyone in particular.
There has been more than one thread started recently where I would like to help a new member with a problem.
Problem is, so many people are jumping in with guesses and have the OP's attention that it would be a waste of time trying to get the OP's attention. Sad really, I just move on.
It would be nice if people helped with actual experiences not play a guessing game and ruin the chance for someone to be helped.
hybridway2
Amare Shill
….and that's the problem. I am legit showing people I am getting great results with the Mars Hydro lights I am using....but yet people just argue and say well this lights better but it costs more. Well yea I am sure but I don't argue what's better. I just show what's working.
[/QUOTE]
Ohz you're a poor Guy using new Mars equipment. I c. Yeah man, no matter what, you won't win.
They know the new models are better thdn the old but once a Mars, Always a Mars unfortunately. Plus they're still Epi'ng.
Another issue with not just Mars either. Is, allot of the knock-offs are not only making false claims but are also providing fixtures that will deffinetly compare to the real-deal now, as in the next 6 - 12 months. But what happens after that, when unrecorded/undocumented depreciation on a whole nuther level sets in?
Many of Those cheapies have insufficient thermal mngmt or even recommend none on a thin PCP.
My point is, saving a few bucks today can cost you disappearing Quaps in the future.
Dudes be like "yo, where's my QP I was getting". But it happens in 1-2 oz increments over time. Like an unnoticed receding hair line.
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower
Well-Known Member
Your post reflects what I've been thinking the last few days in the Problem section.
Not related to sadmadmarsgrower or anyone in particular.
There has been more than one thread started recently where I would like to help a new member with a problem.
Problem is, so many people are jumping in with guesses and have the OP's attention that it would be a waste of time trying to get the OP's attention. Sad really, I just move on.
It would be nice if people helped with actual experiences not play a guessing game and ruin the chance for someone to be helped.
[/QUOTE]
Like my Mars thread....Created a thread to show people actual grows and they come in and tell me how HPS is better or some other brand.
Not related to sadmadmarsgrower or anyone in particular.
There has been more than one thread started recently where I would like to help a new member with a problem.
Problem is, so many people are jumping in with guesses and have the OP's attention that it would be a waste of time trying to get the OP's attention. Sad really, I just move on.
It would be nice if people helped with actual experiences not play a guessing game and ruin the chance for someone to be helped.
[/QUOTE]
Like my Mars thread....Created a thread to show people actual grows and they come in and tell me how HPS is better or some other brand.
hybridway2
Amare Shill
Your post reflects what I've been thinking the last few days in the Problem section.
Not related to sadmadmarsgrower or anyone in particular.
There has been more than one thread started recently where I would like to help a new member with a problem.
Problem is, so many people are jumping in with guesses and have the OP's attention that it would be a waste of time trying to get the OP's attention. Sad really, I just move on.
It would be nice if people helped with actual experiences not play a guessing game and ruin the chance for someone to be helped.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, its been an epidemic here for as long as i can remember. Used to be worse when they just regurgitated whatever their sponsor of choice told them was true that week in order to bend facts to suite their newest led fixture.
But now its just everything, not just LED fixtures. Sad really. Just keep trying. Sometimes your one line response will make more sense then all of the above & the OP tales it into consideration. Sometimes!
Not related to sadmadmarsgrower or anyone in particular.
There has been more than one thread started recently where I would like to help a new member with a problem.
Problem is, so many people are jumping in with guesses and have the OP's attention that it would be a waste of time trying to get the OP's attention. Sad really, I just move on.
It would be nice if people helped with actual experiences not play a guessing game and ruin the chance for someone to be helped.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, its been an epidemic here for as long as i can remember. Used to be worse when they just regurgitated whatever their sponsor of choice told them was true that week in order to bend facts to suite their newest led fixture.
But now its just everything, not just LED fixtures. Sad really. Just keep trying. Sometimes your one line response will make more sense then all of the above & the OP tales it into consideration. Sometimes!
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower
Well-Known Member
Ohz you're a poor Guy using new Mars equipment. I c. Yeah man, no matter what, you won't win.
They know the new models are better thdn the old but once a Mars, Always a Mars unfortunately. Plus they're still Epi'ng.
Another issue with not just Mars either. Is, allot of the knock-offs are not only making false claims but are also providing fixtures that will deffinetly compare to the real-deal now, as in the next 6 - 12 months. But what happens after that, when unrecorded/undocumented depreciation on a whole nuther level sets in?
Many of Those cheapies have insufficient thermal mngmt or even recommend none on a thin PCP.
My point is, saving a few bucks today can cost you disappearing Quaps in the future.
Dudes be like "yo, where's my QP I was getting". But it happens in 1-2 oz increments over time. Like an unnoticed receding hair line.
[/QUOTE]
I hear ya. When the day comes anything in my grow starts breaking or malfunctioning, I'll be the first person to report it. I saved up while using cheap Blurples we cant even pronounce to buying my first white light LED. ( Mars TS-1000 ). At the time, I didn't have $125 to just blow on a light. Anyways, I got great results with it ( In my own opinion ) so I started saving for a bigger light. ( My first Mars TSL-2000 ). I have been using those 2 alone every day over a year now with zero problems as of yet. Like I said though, if and when they break, Ill journal it.
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower
Well-Known Member
That's like the Spider Farmer on Alibaba. Their one light on Ali is much much cheaper but advertises as the SF 2000. It has like 880 diodes but on Spider's actual site the same board is almost double the price but has over 1200 diodes. We pointed it out and got flipped out on.
hybridway2
Amare Shill
I hear ya. When the day comes anything in my grow starts breaking or malfunctioning, I'll be the first person to report it. I saved up while using cheap Blurples we cant even pronounce to buying my first white light LED. ( Mars TS-1000 ). At the time, I didn't have $125 to just blow on a light. Anyways, I got great results with it ( In my own opinion ) so I started saving for a bigger light. ( My first Mars TSL-2000 ). I have been using those 2 alone every day over a year now with zero problems as of yet. Like I said though, if and when they break, Ill journal it.
[/QUOTE]
Diode depreciation would need to be done with a documented measurement the day of first use, then a yr + 2 yrs later.
hillbill
Well-Known Member
Consider also, if you are on this forum often and buy an SP or TS and have issues that they will treat you well.
It is possible for a corporation to re-evaluate their priorities. Time will tell but I think I could grow some good pot with these.
Yeah, this boomer's old enough to say pot.
It is possible for a corporation to re-evaluate their priorities. Time will tell but I think I could grow some good pot with these.
Yeah, this boomer's old enough to say pot.