When pseudoscience harms

eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
^ phew, glad I didn't have to write that one!

(can see the validity in some points, though - I can safely take the 'facts are facts in the physical realm' stance here)

- but
...
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
eye exaggerate said:
...nice thread Heis. I have 2 quick questions.

...one of them is, are these people being used as examples displaying real faith? Should we define it for the sake of argument?

...the second question is, what if faith has metaphysical properties we do not know about? For all we know, faith could be fueling the sun, man :D

edit: here's a really cool take on faith:

"Faith is the direct perception of what is real, it is fundamental wisdom; it is the experience of that which is beyond the body, the affections and the mind. We must distinguish between faith and belief. Beliefs are found stored in the Intermediate Mind. Faith is a characteristic of the Inner Mind. Unfortunately, there is always a general tendency to confuse belief with faith. Although it seems paradoxical, we emphasize the following: “Those who have true faith do not need to believe.” This is because genuine faith is living knowledge, exact cognition, and direct experience."

*side note - faith and our sexual functioning are tied together "hardcore" (hehe...) It takes willpower to have faith. It takes having a grasp on something else :shock: to have willpower.

-anywho, this is just my understanding, at present :)
Click to expand...

Z and I are having a discussion about this topic in https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/554049-raised-christian-have-some-faith.html, perhaps you want to join us.

I don't intend for this thread to focus solely on religious faith. Actually I think that sort of thing gets enough exposure around here. I'd like to highlight other examples of faith based thinking, to demonstrate than when we teach people that faith is a virtue, we open them up to suffering and hardship. We are not free to allow faith to trump real world data, as we see when we try to apply it to real world stuff.
 
olylifter420

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
True, i did have a misunderstanding. I thought it was about natural routes, what would natural routes fall under?

After those statements, i see that homeopathy if all homeopaths practice like that, then yes, it does not have a place in personal health modalities.

So what would you call the chiro who also uses blood testing then supplementing with whatever he feels will get your blood work back to proper levels?





Heisenberg said:
I think I see your point. No reason to single this mother out because progress will still happen and it's her choice to be left behind if she wants. I agree, I was simply giving an example of faulty reasoning effecting real life choices.

As for homeopathy, I think you misunderstand what it is. It's not simply going the natural route, which BTW I don't have a problem with. Homeopathy however does two things I wonder if you agree with.

1) It says like cures like. So, if you have a headache, we give you some drug that we know causes headaches. If you feel nauseous, we give you a substance that is known to cause nausea. If you can't sleep, we give you caffeine. I am not making this up or twisting it around. Any homeopathy practitioner will tell you the same.

2) Water has memory. We put the drug we decide to give you into some water, and then dilute that water thousands of times. We dilute it so much that the chance of even one molecule of the drug still being present in the water is astronomical. Homeopaths do not deny that this is so. They admit there is no drug in that water, but they say water has a memory if you mix it a certain way, so the water will act like the drug.

In the end they sell you a pill or vial who's active ingredient is pure water. When we forget that it's water, and test it for results through controlled experiments just in case, they only way we can get any positive results is if we are sloppy. When we are sloppy, we can get the same results from tap water. The more careful we are, the less evidence we see of homeopathy working.

Homeopathy is not herbs or diet or natural substances, it's magic water. Do you still feel homeopathy has it's place?
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olylifter420

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Fuck off with your sexism macho shit douche.

Females have all the right in the world to apply to which ever fucking job they wish and do whatever they wish to do.

Your draconian ways of thinking are what to me in my opinion has hindered our advances. If you ask me, women are extremely intelligent and put attention to detail. Shit us dudes have the smallest of patience for, women do it with ease.

Just imagine if women had equality since the dawn of time? Where we would be


Fuck off again..

Being a strength and conditioining specialist, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about with women athletics. Females work harder then their male cunterparts. They know they have to prove themselves everywhere they go cause of retards like you.

You try running a 21second 200meter sprint or try running a 100meter sprint in 10.7seconds. You cant. Try pole vsulting, you cant. Try triple jumping, you cant.

Swim against missy franklin, you cant cause you suck.

Try beating the chick from the univeristy of conneticut that plays point guard on a one on one and try to beat her, you cant cause you suck.

Try clean and jerking 418pounds, you cant cause you suck and are weak.

I can go on and on, but i think you get the point.

On an aside, i also strongly believe you support the raping and stoning of women.


Wilksey said:


Don't know if this fits into your "magical thinking" category, however, it IS bullshit, and ultimately detrimental to our society.

"Men and women are equal....."

This particular piece of "magical thinking" has lead to millions of dollars of wasted time, money, and resources in a wide variety of public, and private, sector career fields, all in the name of "equality".

Despite the fact that males of our species hold EVERY-SINGLE strength, speed, and endurance record in athletics, this belief in "equality" has lead to inefficient and costly applicant screening processes, and lowered standards in a wide range of fields requiring the strength and endurance inherent in males.

From firefighters, to police, to the military, females must be included in the application and training process, and instead of meeting male standards, are often time given lower standards of their own, all in the name of "equality". What we end up with is an inferior product that costs us the same as the superior product, and at the same time actually endangers the lives of the superior product. All in the name of "equality".

Certainly there has to be some "magical thinking" going on when idiots believe a 5'4" female will garner the same respect, and be able to complete the same physical tasks, as her 6' 180lb male coworker. That never works in the olympics, or in any other athletic endeavor, and we shouldn't pretend it works in other career fields.

"Magic" indeed...
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mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
And try as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy dike.
"By definition", I begin
"Alternative Medicine", I continue
"Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
Do you know what they call "alternative medicine"
That's been proved to work?
Medicine."
 
W

Wilksey

Well-Known Member
Being a strength and conditioining specialist, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about with women athletics.
Click to expand...
As a former military muldoon, I am well aware of what it takes to develop and perform strength, speed, and endurance tasks, as I was required to both perform, train, and assess, the execution of those tasks over a 20 year span. However, unlike our athletic counterparts in the civilian sector, we intentionally incorporated sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and unfavorable environmental conditions into our training, which contributes significantly to the "suck factor" of a wide variety of tasks. So, yes, I do "have a clue" from a training standpoint.

I have seen first hand how females slow down a formation, and increase the load requirements for their male counterparts forced to carry their kit due to the biological differences (lack of strength and endurance) between genders.

How many female athletes would be competitive against their male counterparts in the same Olympic events? None. Examine the records, it's all there, and it's not because of "sexism", it's because of biology and evolution.


Certainly, in this day and age this view is not popular in many circles, however, nothing I have said is wrong, and is based on empirical evidence easily found by researching the results of competition sports, and through my own experiences alike. To believe otherwise is to ignore the facts, and is akin to ignoring science in favor of "faith".

As a strength and conditioning specialist, if YOU had to assemble a team required to perform physical tasks of strength, speed, and endurance, where would YOU look? The females? If your life depended on it, you would want the strongest, and the fastest in each event, and that individual will be male. Every single time.

That's not sexist.

That's biology.

Best to you, regardless.
 
olylifter420

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
I had a feeling you were in the military with your sexist attitude.

Like i said, you probably condone the rape of your female counterparts being that are military.

It would suck to find out you were married with your sexism agenda.

Like i said, once you can run a 200meter sprint under 21seconds or beat missy franklin in a swim sprint or after you can beat the world record clean and jerk for females, please, keep you dangerous beliefs to yourself




Wilksey said:
As a former military muldoon, I am well aware of what it takes to develop and perform strength, speed, and endurance tasks, as I was required to both perform, train, and assess, the execution of those tasks over a 20 year span. However, unlike our athletic counterparts in the civilian sector, we intentionally incorporated sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and unfavorable environmental conditions into our training, which contributes significantly to the "suck factor" of a wide variety of tasks. So, yes, I do "have a clue" from a training standpoint.

I have seen first hand how females slow down a formation, and increase the load requirements for their male counterparts forced to carry their kit due to the biological differences (lack of strength and endurance) between genders.

How many female athletes would be competitive against their male counterparts in the same Olympic events? None. Examine the records, it's all there, and it's not because of "sexism", it's because of biology and evolution.


Certainly, in this day and age this view is not popular in many circles, however, nothing I have said is wrong, and is based on empirical evidence easily found by researching the results of competition sports, and through my own experiences alike. To believe otherwise is to ignore the facts, and is akin to ignoring science in favor of "faith".

As a strength and conditioning specialist, if YOU had to assemble a team required to perform physical tasks of strength, speed, and endurance, where would YOU look? The females? If your life depended on it, you would want the strongest, and the fastest in each event, and that individual will be male. Every single time.

That's not sexist.

That's biology.

Best to you, regardless.
Click to expand...
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
eye exaggerate said:
...nice thread Heis. I have 2 quick questions.

...one of them is, are these people being used as examples displaying real faith? Should we define it for the sake of argument?

...the second question is, what if faith has metaphysical properties we do not know about? For all we know, faith could be fueling the sun, man :D

edit: here's a really cool take on faith:

"Faith is the direct perception of what is real, it is fundamental wisdom; it is the experience of that which is beyond the body, the affections and the mind. We must distinguish between faith and belief. Beliefs are found stored in the Intermediate Mind. Faith is a characteristic of the Inner Mind. Unfortunately, there is always a general tendency to confuse belief with faith. Although it seems paradoxical, we emphasize the following: “Those who have true faith do not need to believe.” This is because genuine faith is living knowledge, exact cognition, and direct experience."

*side note - faith and our sexual functioning are tied together "hardcore" (hehe...) It takes willpower to have faith. It takes having a grasp on something else :shock: to have willpower.

-anywho, this is just my understanding, at present :)
Click to expand...
Eye, I would counter that "real" faith must still be consistent with what is real.
Very very few people have real faith in Revelation-type stuff, like the mark of the beast ... most who profess it do so because it's been presented to them as a package deal. "Believe in God, and you automatically believe in _____".

It also seems to me that you are seeking to define real/true faith as a force that can exceed or transcend the natural. I would have an easier time subscribing to this if this excursion could be harnessed, disciplined, found to conform to a pattern of invocation ... but tales of the paranormal seem to me bedeviled (!) by an essentially wilful contrariness. I see a harmful result, esp. in a Christian context: the mandate to have sufficient faith in order to effect a promised magical outcome, combined with not achieving that magical outcome, leads to a recursion, a retreat from a healthy engaging of the world as it is, as the person seeking sufficient faith tries harder and harder, desperately jettisoning sense in the pursuit of the transcendent thing. Jmo. cn
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
tyler.durden said:
Wow, Heis. This thread is getting a slower start than you probably imagined, and you started off with such a light example of magical thinking. Can't wait to read the responses to the heavier issues magical thinking brings about, like the child witches in Haiti, or vaccinations causing autism, or organic vs. conventional food, or Homeopathy...
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Lol, I was thinking the same thing, and good suggestions. Next subject I plan on tackling is facilitated communication.
 
W

Wilksey

Well-Known Member
olylifter420 said:
I had a feeling you were in the military with your sexist attitude.

Like i said, you probably condone the rape of your female counterparts being that are military.

It would suck to find out you were married with your sexism agenda.

Like i said, once you can run a 200meter sprint under 21seconds or beat missy franklin in a swim sprint or after you can beat the world record clean and jerk for females, please, keep you dangerous beliefs to yourself
Click to expand...
Beliefs?

Clean and jerk world records:

Males: 580 lb.
Females: 412 lb.

200M sprint world records:

Males: Usain Bolt with a 19.19
Females: Florence Griffith-Joyner with a 21.34 (This time is not even in the top 10 times for male finishes.)

Marathon:

Males: 2:03.38
Females: 2:15.25


Note: All record info obtained via wikipedia
Click to expand...
These are not "beliefs".

These are facts.

Cold, hard, biological facts that no amount of name calling or accusations of "sexism" can change. When you need to screen for the fastest, the strongest, and the ones with the most endurance, the pool you choose from should be males. To ignore that fact is to ignore biology, wastes time and resources, and leaves you with an inferior product.

However, based on your hostile and emotionally charged responses, I would imagine that facts don't concern you regarding this issue. There's a lot of that going around in our society. Too much.


Happy harvests to you regardless.





 
eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Eye, I would counter that "real" faith must still be consistent with what is real.
Very very few people have real faith in Revelation-type stuff, like the mark of the beast ... most who profess it do so because it's been presented to them as a package deal. "Believe in God, and you automatically believe in _____".

It also seems to me that you are seeking to define real/true faith as a force that can exceed or transcend the natural. I would have an easier time subscribing to this if this excursion could be harnessed, disciplined, found to conform to a pattern of invocation ... but tales of the paranormal seem to me bedeviled (!) by an essentially wilful contrariness. I see a harmful result, esp. in a Christian context: the mandate to have sufficient faith in order to effect a promised magical outcome, combined with not achieving that magical outcome, leads to a recursion, a retreat from a healthy engaging of the world as it is, as the person seeking sufficient faith tries harder and harder, desperately jettisoning sense in the pursuit of the transcendent thing. Jmo. cn
Click to expand...
...dude, that was so well written that I've been thinking about it for a while now. What if people turned their televisions off for a bit - would that help the magical attachment to faith with no underpinnings?

*as a force that can transcend - to this I have to say yes, 100% (imho). That force, along with others, are more palpable with the use of self-restraint. I'm a little bit sure that most religious documents are pointing to the same thing. Some 'thing' eternal. What the natural mind can comprehend is what is visible, immediately attainable - fair to say? Interesting also that buddhists place a lot of faith on faith. Oy :)
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
eye exaggerate said:
...dude, that was so well written that I've been thinking about it for a while now. What if people turned their televisions off for a bit - would that help the magical attachment to faith with no underpinnings?
Click to expand...
It most probably would. People would have less choice to avoid getting in touch with their natures, and that of nature. My TV only comes on when I want to watch something from my modest library of DVDs, or the library's even more modest collection. Tonight, M*A*S*H Season Three beckons once the bubble has been imbibed.
I have also begun playing with meditation. My success rate/intensity is still beginner-low, but I am accessing a positively psychedelic manifold ... cn
 
eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
It most probably would. People would have less choice to avoid getting in touch with their natures, and that of nature. My TV only comes on when I want to watch something from my modest library of DVDs, or the library's even more modest collection. Tonight, M*A*S*H Season Three beckons once the bubble has been imbibed.
I have also begun playing with meditation. My success rate/intensity is still beginner-low, but I am accessing a positively psychedelic manifold ... cn
Click to expand...
...that intro music from mash is untouchable. A 'major' part of my childhood :)
 
eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Do you remember when the intro themes from popular prime-time shows would end up playing on Top 40 radio? Like Starsky&Hutch? That was weird. cn
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...I watched starsky & hutch, but my awareness of radio was not as compelling as tv yet. If I'm not mistaken, my pj's might still have had 'feet' on them :razz:
 
olylifter420

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Dude, you are retarded.

You are ignoring the first questioned posed to you, can you beat any of these female record holders?

I know you cant, so how does that make you feel? You get beat by the thing you hate the most.

It dont matter if others support what you say, you are still a bigot ans sexist dude. Others just support you to go against what i say.

You give females no chance to show they can succeed. Biological factors are limited cause they are related to internal functions. Real world applications are what count, women out perform men in many areas

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-31549315/women-stars-outperform-men-in-new-jobs/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/16/study-womens-teams-outper_n_501380.html


I dont hate women like you do, i believe in equality for all no matter what "biological" whatever shit said they have.


So are you married? And why do you hate women so much?


Wilksey said:
Beliefs?



These are not "beliefs".

These are facts.

Cold, hard, biological facts that no amount of name calling or accusations of "sexism" can change. When you need to screen for the fastest, the strongest, and the ones with the most endurance, the pool you choose from should be males. To ignore that fact is to ignore biology, wastes time and resources, and leaves you with an inferior product.

However, based on your hostile and emotionally charged responses, I would imagine that facts don't concern you regarding this issue. There's a lot of that going around in our society. Too much.


Happy harvests to you regardless.


Click to expand...
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
olylifter420 said:
Dude, you are retarded.

You are ignoring the first questioned posed to you, can you beat any of these female record holders?

I know you cant, so how does that make you feel? You get beat by the thing you hate the most.

It dont matter if others support what you say, you are still a bigot ans sexist dude. Others just support you to go against what i say.

You give females no chance to show they can succeed. Biological factors are limited cause they are related to internal functions. Real world applications are what count, women out perform men in many areas

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-31549315/women-stars-outperform-men-in-new-jobs/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/16/study-womens-teams-outper_n_501380.html


I dont hate women like you do, i believe in equality for all no matter what "biological" whatever shit said they have.


So are you married? And why do you hate women so much?
Click to expand...

*steps out of the shadows*

Ok, hold on a second.

Oly, you're not comparing like and like. Top male athletes outperform top female athletes, it's nothing personal against women; it's because men have more muscle mass than women. We're naturally larger and stronger, which makes us more suited to particular tasks. All that has been said is that in high stress situations like military operations, law enforcement, firefighting, etc., that we should eliminate double standards, because the cost of failure is too high.

If females meet the single standard, there's no issues; the problem is most of the time it's not a single standard. Females are often judged by their own standards which in a life or death situation, has the potential to put lives at risk.

Didn't you ever play sports as a kid? Didn't you ever play the 'girls team' in an exhibition game? I've gotten triple hat tricks playing the girls team... yeah... 9 goals in one hockey game. Oh, did I mention they were Midget and we were Bantam? They were two years older than us, but we weren't allowed to body check... why do you think that is? Also, how many females can bench press 1100lbs, or leg press 2300lbs?

Why don't male UFC fighters fight women too? Maybe because it'd be a fucking blood bath?

Now, that being said; there's jobs that females are better suited to also. Women show higher aptitudes in different areas than men, and excel at some things better than men. It goes both ways, Oly.

So, are you really telling us you think men and women are physically equal?
 
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