When Does Life Begin ...
- Thread starter ViRedd
- Start date
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't have minded being aborted.So my answer is not the same as everyone else's.I can only speak for me.But seeing as these children were abandoned,in some cases mangled,in some cases left with people who molested them,and passed back and forth, I bet if you ask them at 30, at least a few will agree with me.I am a woman, and I'd much rather abort a fetus than have a child I couldn't feed.But that's my choice, and has been the choice of women for centuries.We can't force our own views and beliefs onto another person's own body, and whatever resides with in.Many people would argue for mandatory sterilization of these women...but once again, we have no right over another's body.
Bongulator
Well-Known Member
Potential humans beings are not human beings. Kinda like a hunk of coal isn't a diamond. It could *become* a diamond, if the proper conditions were met, but until it becomes a diamond, it remains a hunk of coal. Why don't people pay diamond prices for coal, since coal is potentially diamond? Because potential is meaningless until and unless it is realized. Cows are smarter than fetuses. Tumors exhibit the same degree of self-awareness. There's software that can get close to passing the Turing Test, but no clump of fetal tissue has ever passed it. That the clump of tissue could turn into a sentient being if the proper conditions were met is likewise meaningless. Until it has achieved sentience, realized its potential, it should not be afforded the same rights as if it already had. If you *are* willing to pay diamond prices for coal, then okay, at least your position is consistent (and I have a pile of coal for you).
Anybody that tries to use religion to intrude *into* another's body to 'save' a clump of unthinking tissue is an extremist asshat. Kinda like the U.S. version of the Taliban. They actually really do have a lot in common, the Taliban and anti-choicers -- investigate on your own and you'll see they share many of the same ideals. It's just that one group produces Christian-flavored poop, and the other produces Islamic-flavored poop. It's all still poop, and both groups readily deposit that poop on the rights and freedoms of women.
Anybody that tries to use religion to intrude *into* another's body to 'save' a clump of unthinking tissue is an extremist asshat. Kinda like the U.S. version of the Taliban. They actually really do have a lot in common, the Taliban and anti-choicers -- investigate on your own and you'll see they share many of the same ideals. It's just that one group produces Christian-flavored poop, and the other produces Islamic-flavored poop. It's all still poop, and both groups readily deposit that poop on the rights and freedoms of women.
Smirgen
Well-Known Member
Stoney McFried
You could still self abort stoney, you could put a gun to your head , cock the hammer, put your finger on the trigger knowing that only a slight pull will end all of your tomorrows, No more family , no more freinds, no more good times and no more bad times just blackness, Try it ... Really try it
If you do I promise you will have a much greater respect for life in general.
The term FETUS is used much the same way the term NIGGER was used back in the day ..As a means to dehumanize.
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You could still self abort stoney, you could put a gun to your head , cock the hammer, put your finger on the trigger knowing that only a slight pull will end all of your tomorrows, No more family , no more freinds, no more good times and no more bad times just blackness, Try it ... Really try it
If you do I promise you will have a much greater respect for life in general.
The term FETUS is used much the same way the term NIGGER was used back in the day ..As a means to dehumanize.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
I have tried to commit suicide, in my younger days.I think you're assuming things when you know little about me.Its cool.Happens a lot on the net.But not all life is sacred.And a woman's body is her own.Its very easy for someone to say, "Well, give it up for adoption." But maybe the woman doesn't even want to give birth.Pregnancy and birth can have very detrimental effects on one's health.In all cases, it changes your body at least a little.Now, if one believes all life is sacred, including that which has no thought,and uses the body as a host, try getting a tapeworm.
Smirgen
Well-Known Member
I would say that anybody who intrudes into anothers body to kill a potential human being to prevent it from having a life is the ultimate inhuman asshat.
But I guess that goes without saying.
The Abortion Gallery
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
All that Roe Vs Wade does is give women the right to CHOOSE, and the access to actual doctors who can do the procedure safely.Look up what happened to women when a bunch of religious freaks said they didn't have that right.Anybody want to talk about coat hanger abortions?
Smirgen
Well-Known Member
Stoney McFried
Abortion can have very detrimental effects on ones health as well, namely the aborted.
Stoney McFried
Holy shit ! did you just compare a Tapework (Parasite) to an unborn human child, I think I'm wasting my time talking to you Stoney.
Scary inhumane chit right there folks.
Smirgen:
Abortion can have very detrimental effects on ones health as well, namely the aborted.
Stoney McFried
Holy shit ! did you just compare a Tapework (Parasite) to an unborn human child, I think I'm wasting my time talking to you Stoney.
Scary inhumane chit right there folks.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Why...do you know whether or not a tapeworm wants to live or die?Have you ever given birth, my man?THIS is inhumane.Life Before Roe v. Wade | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet Read it...are you suggesting that a fetus, which has not any thought,or voice,or opinion, has more right than these women who were used as brood mares by insensitive spouses because it was also illegal to get birth control,because that was viewed as interference with conception?Why do you get to decide what life has more value?Have you had six children?From your body?Making it illegal again won't stop it.It will just kill more mothers, more women whose only real crime was to be born with a womb.Just because a woman is a woman doesn't mean she's obligated to procreate.The religious right wants to enforce abstinence only,pro life choices, because it goes along nicely with their dogma.Ladies.YOUR BODY YOUR CHOICE!I give you abortifacients.Abortifacient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Abortifacient: Herbs that induce abortion Herb Properties Seems "GAWD" hisself gave you the means to choose.
ViRedd
New Member
Well, the debate is about when life begins and not about Roe vs Wade.
It's not debatable when life begins. It begins at conception ... and that life is a human life. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with science.
Now, the religious debate should be about when that human life acquires a soul. That's the only thing that is debatable here.
One is science and the other is taken on faith.
Vi
It's not debatable when life begins. It begins at conception ... and that life is a human life. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with science.
Now, the religious debate should be about when that human life acquires a soul. That's the only thing that is debatable here.
One is science and the other is taken on faith.
Vi
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Not all life is sacred. Just because it is alive, doesn't mean it's meant to exist.Sometimes a brain doesn't develop.Sometimes, the mother couldn't afford a pregnancy,nor have the means to support it in a healthful manner.If all life were sacred, we wouldn't be in the Iraq war.Just because there's cell division, it doesn't mean it needs to be protected.Hence, the tapeworm analogy.
Bongulator
Well-Known Member
So killing Terry Schiavo should not have been a family decision? It should have been the law that the family continue to fund her vegetableness? (Was she their 'vegetabilibuddy'? Ahh, I miss South Park!) And what happens when they've gone bankrupt, and are starving from lack of funds for anything else? Off to prison for them, for lacking the money to save someone who did not have the brain matter to even comprehend what taking a shit *is*, much less do it in a specific place?
It's the same concept. Except that it's on the other side of life, after brain-death, rather than before brain-existence. Or are people who've actually had a brain less valuable than clumps of tissue who've never had a brain (or much of anything else)?
In any case, the only thing that having abortion legal does is make fewer girls die. I'll see if I can find a link to some studies done comparing the frequency of abortion in countries where it is legal to those where it is not -- and the number of abortions is basically the same, but the number of *unsafe* abortions increases dramatically when it is illegal. The actual number of abortions doesn't change. You can no more effectively legislate away abortion than you can legislate away a weed. As a pragmatist, abortions being illegal = more dead girls, and I'm anti-dead-girls, personally. If you're more of a pro-dead-girl guy/gal, well, that's you.
It's the same concept. Except that it's on the other side of life, after brain-death, rather than before brain-existence. Or are people who've actually had a brain less valuable than clumps of tissue who've never had a brain (or much of anything else)?
In any case, the only thing that having abortion legal does is make fewer girls die. I'll see if I can find a link to some studies done comparing the frequency of abortion in countries where it is legal to those where it is not -- and the number of abortions is basically the same, but the number of *unsafe* abortions increases dramatically when it is illegal. The actual number of abortions doesn't change. You can no more effectively legislate away abortion than you can legislate away a weed. As a pragmatist, abortions being illegal = more dead girls, and I'm anti-dead-girls, personally. If you're more of a pro-dead-girl guy/gal, well, that's you.
Bongulator
Well-Known Member
I greatly value human life. Especially young women. Abortions being illegal means more of those young women turning up as cold corpses. That seems to me to make me about as pro-life as anyone. The self-proclaimed 'pro-lifers' are the ones that, by making abortion illegal, would cause the needless deaths of many young women. Yoohoo! We've been down that road before! We don't need to theorize how it works, because we already know.
I know some of you, probably most of you, are too young to remember the pre Roe v. Wade days, the gory blood-soaked hangers, the dead girls. The number of dead fetuses was about the same when abortion was illegal, because the number of abortions per capita wasn't much different. The number of dead girls was much higher though, because so many of the abortions were unsafe.
You cannot effectively legislate what a young woman, often in desperation, does in her own closet. And yes, that's exactly what happens when doctors are eradicated from the equation. If she lives, yes, you could throw her in jail. But it wouldn't solve anything. And the fetus will be just as dead.
'Pro-life' is about the most Orwellian term ever, because in the real world it means exactly the opposite. What it really means is 'pro-more-dead-young-women'. That's just a fact, already proven true prior to Roe v. Wade.
I know some of you, probably most of you, are too young to remember the pre Roe v. Wade days, the gory blood-soaked hangers, the dead girls. The number of dead fetuses was about the same when abortion was illegal, because the number of abortions per capita wasn't much different. The number of dead girls was much higher though, because so many of the abortions were unsafe.
You cannot effectively legislate what a young woman, often in desperation, does in her own closet. And yes, that's exactly what happens when doctors are eradicated from the equation. If she lives, yes, you could throw her in jail. But it wouldn't solve anything. And the fetus will be just as dead.
'Pro-life' is about the most Orwellian term ever, because in the real world it means exactly the opposite. What it really means is 'pro-more-dead-young-women'. That's just a fact, already proven true prior to Roe v. Wade.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Going by that logic, certain snakes, preying mantises, and even cats kill their young.So that argument is nullified.Life is not always such a gift.
Smirgen
Well-Known Member
Going by your logic Humans that kill their young are no better than animals, With this I would agree.
ViRedd
New Member
^^^
^^^Isn't it amazing how the human mind can accept anything providing the proper "conditioning" is applied? Since Roe vs Wade, 40 million unborn have been sacrificed to the god of convenience ... and we call them "tapeworms." What a sad commentary on our Orwellian society.
Vi
