Brevity, The Soul Of Wit!
New Member
I agree with people that Obama is completely unprepared for his presidency and is going to fail horribly but Bush spent eight years in office and didnt do much better. The U.S. will outlive this ignorance.
What will happen when the US goes completely bankrupt??
- Thread starter kappainf
- Start date
Yeah man, a lot of people are jumpin' on gold.
Brevity, The Soul Of Wit!
New Member
$1000 per ounce?
doc111
Well-Known Member
In a society without laws or a way to enforce them who keeps people from having disputes? How are those disputes resolved? What stops me from seeing something I want and just taking it? When the pedophile down the street kidnaps, rapes and murders someones child who will intervene? I agree that we are in a mess right now but it hasn't always been this way and it doesn't have to continue. Society needs some form of law and order and that should be one of the major roles of government. Who will put out the neighbors house when it catches on fire? Who will pay for the equipment used and the manpower for fighting that fire? I think we used to have societies without governments and it didn't work out so well and that is why 99% of the world today is governed in some manner.
laughingduck
Well-Known Member
I would appreciate some real honesty from our federal goverment. There are thing that they do well, and more that turns to shit. We need to seperate what we expect from the different branches of goverment, the federal goverment should be servant to the states like it was originally intended. Our founding fathers knew what they where doing, and the checks and balances have been overidden. when our congress folks don't care about reading what they are voting for, that means to me they are not representing there constituants. There constituants don't care what there congress person is doing, as long as they can continue voting for them, and can see that they bring home some pork...... I think we need to take a long look at history, it is repeating its self!
doc111
Well-Known Member
Thank you. This is what I keep trying to tell people.
Brevity, The Soul Of Wit!
New Member
Not bad. Good Post. +rep
ancap
Active Member
Well, let me first say that you are finally asking the great, important questions that I was hoping you would ask from the beginning. My biggest problem with your position thus far has been your reluctance to approach these ideas (which you admit are "wonderful") with more curiosity.
No one prevents people from having disputes in a free society.
This answer would obviously be extremely complex, but let me try to do some justice to the answer in one measley paragraph...
The government currently acts as a contract enforcing agency. Currently when one party breaches contract, there are intense pre-trial negotiations (mostly handled by the PRIVATE sector). The vast majority of these disputes are resolved before ever seeing a court room. In the same way the government isn't the only organization capable of maintaining roads, the government isn't the only organization capable of resolving disputes. If you and I establish a contract under the umbrella of a Dispute Resolution Organization (DRO), we voluntarily agree to honor the bylaws of that agreement and the consequences of breaching that agreement. The case can be tried by the DRO and the ruling can be subsequently reviewed by an independent third party organization or secondary DRO.
Shall we look how the current system works? 100 people are arrested for robbery. These people go to prison for a various number of years. Within three years of being released, 80 of them have been rearrested (US numbers from 1994). Would you say the status quo is working? If you wish, I can present an argument of how theft will decrease by large margins if the state were not around.
Social ostracism is more of a punishment than prison. If you are deemed a "thief" by the DRO's database (multiple shared databases), and your social credit score is damaged, less people will feel comfortable entering into a relationship with you. You will be suspect to future landlords, banks may not lend you money if you do not have collateral, and you will have much less available credit for financing a vehicle or home mortgage.
Great question. The answer requires a little understanding of how DROs work (similar to insurance companies). Rather than spend a half hour trying to reduce this argument succinctly, I've found an author who has already done the work for me. I hope you don't mind. To keep this initial post short, I will write the response to this question in another post. If you are really interested in learning the answer to the question, you will have to invest some time in that read.
These are important questions. The answer should not be, "give a bunch of people a bunch of guns and let them steal money from people to fund firestations and call centers."
Not since BC days my friend, and we've come a long way since the jungles. Also, modern technology really changes the landscape that makes the operations of a free society possible.
ancap
Active Member
The Rapist
Let us imagine what might happen to a rapist in a stateless society. All general DRO contracts will include rape protection, since DROs will want to avoid incurring the medical, psychological and income costs of a rape for one of their own customers. Part of rape protection will be the provision of significant financial restitution to a rape victim. (Women who cant afford rape protection will be subsidized by charities or lawyers will represent them pro bono in return for a cut of the restitution.)
If a woman gets raped, she then applies to her DRO for restitution. The DRO then finds her rapist using the most advanced forensic techniques available and sends an agent to knock on his door. Good morning, sir, the agent will politely say. You have been charged with rape, and Im here to inform you of your options. We wish to make this process as painless and non-intrusive as possible for you, and so will schedule a trial at the time of your earliest convenience. If you do not attend this trial, or testify falsely, or attempt to flee, we shall apply significant sanctions against you, which are outlined in your existing DRO contract. Our agreement with your bank allows us to freeze your assets except for basic living and legal expenses the moment that you are charged with a violent crime. We also have agreements with airlines, road, bus and train companies, as well as gas stations, to prevent you from leaving town until this matter is resolved.
You can represent yourself in this trial, choose from one of our lawyers, or we will pay for any lawyer you prefer, at standard rates. Also, as per our existing contract, we are to be allowed access to your home for purposes of investigation. You are free to deny us this access, of course, but then we shall assume that you are guilty of the crime, and will apply all the sanctions allowed to us by contract.
If you are found to be innocent of this crime, we will pay you the sum of twenty thousand dollars, to be funded by the woman who has charged you with rape. We will also offer free psychological counseling for you, in order to help you avoid such accusers in the future. The trial will commence, and will return a verdict in due course. (It seems highly likely that lie-detectors will be admissible, since they are more than 90% accurate when used correctly, which is better than most witnesses. The reason that they are not admissible now is that they would make lawyers less valuable, and also would reveal the degree to which the State police lie.) If the man is found guilty, he will receive another visit from his DRO representative.
Good afternoon, sir, the agent will say. You have been found guilty of rape, and Im here to inform you of your punishment. We have a reciprocal agreement with your bank, which has now put a hold on your accounts, and provided us limited access. We will be deducting double the costs of our investigation and trial from your funds, and will also be transferring half a million dollars to the woman that you raped. We are aware that you do not have sufficient funds to cover this cost, which we will address in a moment. We also have reciprocal agreements with the companies that provide water and electricity to your house, and those will now be cut off. Furthermore, no gas station will sell you gasoline, and no train station, airline or bus company will sell you a ticket. We have made arrangements with all of the local grocery stores to deny you service, either in person or online. If you set foot on the street outside your house, which is owned privately, you will be physically removed for trespassing. Your wife and children can leave at any time. If they have no place to go, we will cover their transition costs, and charge you for them.
Of course, you have the right to appeal this sentence, and if you successfully appeal, we would transfer our costs to the woman who has accused you of rape, and pay you for the inconvenience we have caused you. If, however, your appeal fails, all additional costs will be added to your debt. I can tell you openly that if you choose to stay in your house, you will be unable to survive for very long. You will run out of food and water. You can attempt to escape your own house, of course, leaving all of your possessions. If you do successfully escape, be aware that you are now entered into a central registry, and no reputable DRO will ever represent you. Furthermore, all DROs which have reciprocal agreements with us which is the vast majority of them will withdraw services from their own customers if those customers provide you with any goods or services. For the rest of your life, it will be almost impossible for you to open a bank account, use centralized currency, carry a credit card, own a car, buy gas, use a road or any other form of transportation and gaining food, water and lodging will be a constant nightmare for you. You will spend your entire existence running, hiding and begging, and will never find peace, solace or comfort in any place.
However, there is an option. If you come with me now, we will take you to a place of work for a period of ten years. During that time, you will be working for us in a capacity which will be determined by your skills. If you do not have any viable skills, we will train you. Your wages will go to us, and we will deduct the costs of your incarceration, as well as any of the costs I outlined above which are not covered by your existing funds. A small amount of your wages will be set aside to help get you started after your release.
During your stay with us, we will do our utmost help you, because we do not want to have to go through all of this with again you in the future. You will take courses on ethics. You will take courses on anger management. You will take psychological counseling. You will emerge from your work term a far better person. And when you do emerge, all of your rights will be fully restored, and you will be able to participate once more in the economic and social life of society.
You have a choice now, and I want you to understand the full ramifications of that choice. If you come with me now, this is the best offer that I can give you. If you decide to stay in your house, and later change your mind, the penalties will be far greater. If you escape, and later change your mind, the penalties will be greater still. In our experience, 99.99% of people who either run or stay end up changing their minds, and end up that much worse off. The remaining 0.01%? They commit suicide.
The choice is now yours. Do the right thing. Do the wise thing. Come with me.
Can we really imagine that anyone would choose to stay in his own house and die of thirst, unable to even flush his toilet? Can we imagine that anyone would choose a life of perpetual running and hiding and begging? Even if the rapist had no interest in becoming a better person, surely the cost/benefit of the options outlined above would convince him.
There will always be a small number of truly evil or insane people within society. There are far better ways of dealing with them than our existing system of dehumanizing, brutal and destructive State gulags, which generally serve only to expand their criminal intent, skills and contacts. Also, it is important to remember that the existing State prisons contain relatively few evil or insane people. The majority of those in jail are nonviolent offenders, enslaved and in chains because they used recreational drugs, or gambled, or went to a prostitute, or did not pay all their taxes, or other such innocuous nonsense or turned to crime because State vice prohibitions made crime so profitable, and State education kept them so ignorant.
Our choice, then, is between a system which removes the tiny minority of evil people from society, rehabilitates them if all possible, and makes them work productively to support their own confinement or a State system which spends most of its time and energies enslaving innocent people, while letting the evil and insane roam free or become Commander in Chief.
(Stefan Molyneux)
doc111
Well-Known Member
I still think there are major holes and issues that are not adequately adressed. The bottom line is that people are different. And as I have said and continue to say, this type of a society operates largely on the assumption that most people (if not all people) are logical and rational. Perhaps society will evolve into something like this. I don't think it's too much to wish for but there are a lot of people who enjoy power. We are a long way off from shedding this basic human flaw. Arriving at something like this will take many, many, many years and gradual change. We have so many people who are apathetic and ignorant. They simply don't care about what's going on around them and can't see the forest for the trees. You have some really revolutionary ideas and I like to know that there are still people left who are thinking and hopefully working toward a brighter future for all of mankind.
I can tell you what I have done, it may not work for everyone, but nothing on my list is a waste of time or money, Everything on my list WILL do you some good in the future even if there never is a SHTF scenario.
Gold and Silver. If you think gold at $1050 is expensive, wait until its at $3000. FWIW you cannot buy real physical precious metals at the spot price, there is always a premium added, for gold its nearly $100. Gold will keep its value. Silver is currently going for $16.60 per ounce and I wouldn't be surprised if it went to $30 per ounce by January. Silver will not hold its value, it will triple or quadruple in value since it is one of the most important metals in existence. According to the USGS silver will basically become an extinct element by 2028 at the current rate of consumption. Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.
Food that has a long shelf life, Freeze dried, Pemmican, Sugar, Honey, Vinegar, Salted Beef, Jerked Beef. Get enough for your whole family to last several months. Pemmican by itself will sustain life but it sure gets boring.
Guns and Ammo. I have 3 rifles, one is a large caliber for large Game or anti material uses ( Killing Cars). Another is for closer in tactical situations ( You know what I mean by this) and one is strictly for injuring and not killing ( .22LR). A 12 gauge pump shotgun, ammo is real cheap and everywhere. A pistol of common caliber ( Mines a .45 cal). Lots of ammo, you really can't have enough ammo, ammo can be used to barter with also. I would say a minimum of 1500 rounds for each firearm.
Seeds of Heirloom vegetables. they can't be seeds from genetically modified foods as the seeds are not viable ( Intended that way so you have to buy new seeds every year).
First Aid supplies and OTC medications. If you have Prescriptions you need I suggest stocking up on those if its possible. Rubbing Alcohol, Cold medications, Antihistamines, Aspirin, tylenol, advil. Bandaids, gauze, cotton balls etc etc. Soap and shampoo, a mirror and personal hygiene gear. Lots and lots of toilet paper, like 20 of the big 20 roll packs, honestly you can't have enough. You might be able to use US Dollars as TP, but they aren't as nice as the real deal.
A Diesel Generator, gasoline won't do if it costs too much. Diesel can run on cooking oil made from plants or the local greasy spoon cafe among other things.
Dried Whole wheat kernels so it can be ground down to make flour for bread. Make sure you have yeast too. Pack the grain with diatomaceus earth as all grain has insect eggs in it and the DE will smother them, its totally safe to eat, but don't breath it.
Water purification, Reverse Osmosis or a distiller if you know how to make them work without city water. Get some filters too, you might be using ditch water or water from a scum pond. If it came down to it you just might have to distill your own urine to drink. A good Water pump that can work off the generator is also a good idea.
Manual Labor instruments, Pick, Shovel, Hoe, Sledge Hammer, Axe, Hatchet, Knife, Saw. Things of that nature.
Camping equipment and a GOOD sleeping bag. The military surplus stores sell some good USGI bags for a decent price. Camp-stove with lots of rain proof matches. Lots of extra fuel for the stove. Lantern that uses the same stove fuel, get extra mantles. A stick of Magnesium and flint so you can make fire when you run out of matches. A Tent, preferably a canvas or extra heavy duty one, you never know how long you might have to live in one.
Whiskey, Vodka, Cigarettes. To Barter with or for use if your into those things. Goes without saying the herbal medicine will be useful also in more ways than one.
Candles, lots of them in all sizes and shapes. Tarps, Clothing for summer and winter, shoes and boots, Blankets, pillows.
A solar panel, it doesn't have to be a big one, just one big enough to charge a car battery or run a small water pump. deep cycle car battery, water pump that can run off the car battery ( 12VDC). Backpack, Maps,Rechargeable batteries and charger that will run off a car battery. Flashlight. Extra bulbs for flashlight. Crank Operated Radio,Sewing kit. A Power inverter to turn car battery power into 120V AC Power. Hand tools and power tools.
Put everything you can into 5 gallon buckets with snap on lids so its all waterproof. Have extra buckets on hand for carrying things, collecting rain water, Makeshift outhouse, etc etc etc
Im sure there are some things I have forgotten. To get all of these things will cost you a pretty penny so get those things that will be absolutely essential in order of importance Guns, Gold(silver), Generator. You won't need any money where your going, it would be worthless in a SHTF case.
Big P
Well-Known Member
well ill be damned, great info, but also a great find for a roving armed mob
if the government loses control it will be like a tribal environment, if your not part of a tribe or gang you would became a mark for all your goods and you cant fight a large group by yourself
it would be like waziristan
dont worry ill start a gang with you
can i have some Pemmican
ancap
Active Member
Sure, this example is wildly incomplete and leaves one asking more questions than it answers. It's like trying to explain the free market to someone who has never heard of it. This is almost impossible to do because it is such a massively complex social organism, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Arguments like "most or all people would have to be _______" are not really reasoned arguments. You would need to give examples and be more specific if you want to address these concerns you have, which I'm sure are very valid concerns.
I tend to agree with you on the potential timeline for a stateless society. I'm not an old dude and highly doubt I will see such a society in my lifetime. It takes exposing the ideas of true freedom person by person, and unplugging people from the matrix, so to speak. There is nothing wrong with laying the foundation for such a worthy multi-generational project.
Whether you see it or not, all the greatest things about our modern society come from voluntarism and anarchism (not dependent on the state).
Medical advances - Anarchist in nature
Technological advances - Anarchist
Scientific advances - Anarchist
Free market explosions in wealth - Anarchist
Innovations in consumer products - Anarchist
Contract development and negotiations - Anarchist
Currency (Before govt takeover) - Anarchist
Friendships and romantic relationships - Anarchist
There is nothing so revolutionary and radical about advocating for a society where people can live in the absense of institutionalized violence. Freedom is not a fairytale utopia. Freedom is the basic right of every human being. If lots of corrupt people exist, then why create a system where these people can take power and rule over us? If very few corrupt people exist (relative to the population), then we don't need such a system of coercive rule. Removing the cancer from our society CANNOT further damage our society in the long term. Political libertarians want the tumor to be cut smaller. I want the tumor out of my body completely!
I buy my gold and Silver from one of the 3 coin shops in town, the ONLY way to own gold is to physically have it in your possession. Owning an Exchange Traded Fund(Investment firm) is just owning a piece of paper that says you have so much silver held in someone elses vault in some other country. A promise to pay is a promise that will get broken, leaving you holding the bag. Mine is locked in a 1200 pound gun vault that is Anchored by 6 steel bolts to the cement in my basement. I have a security system that makes ADT look like a 3rd grade outfit. The time it takes for someone to trip the alarm and the alarm company to receive the alarm is less than 2 seconds. And its totally wireless on a secure mesh network this company has. We put in some really cool shit, its not fort Knox, but its way beyond what normal people would have. The neighborhood I live in is lower middle class. Everyone is blue collar, some military. The houses are small as are the Lots they sit on. My house looks just like an ordinary home you drive past every day. I help my neighbors out quite frequently, none of them knows I even smoke, we go to each others BBQ's. I have also buried some of my cache in various locations in the western side of the state. Buried 3 feet under in 5 gallon sealed plastic buckets. I will use a GPS and metal detector to find them in the future. Gold and silver will last indefinitely buried under ground.
gold is great for bribery as well, and I think we all know how conducive some of our government officials are to bribes. Don't want to be forced to a FEMA camp? Bribe your way to freedom.
ObamaSanta
New Member
Very nice stuff NoDrama. I have the weapons portion covered, and then some. I definitely need to stock up on the ammo though. What is the shelf life of the Pemmican bars? I started canning food recently and I am selecting foods for canning based on their longevity, so any foodstuff that lasts is of great interest to me.
CrackerJax
New Member
I always maintain one full closet of emergency food. Started small with hurricanes and have now expanded it to triple the size.
These noodles are the bomb and since dehydrated...last forever. super delicious and great shelf life.
If I whisk on out of the country, I'm going to be giving away a ton of free food to me neighbors....
And please, if you have large amounts of liquid assets, start moving it offshore. Not all of it, but the portion that you never touch.... the lock box accounts or holdings. Get them away from the shaky law which will form.
doc111
Well-Known Member
MRE's. Meals Ready to Eat. These are what the militarty uses as food out in the field. They have like 4,000 calories a piece and have a really long shelf life. I have like 10 boxes of them stored in my basement. You can buy them on ebay or go to flea markets and get them really cheap.