What don't people understand about "Separation of Church and State"?

ThickStemz said:

Sure...

I like this one becuase it forces me to adopt a principal and go against my personal beliefs.

I saw something on the news recently about a bakery owner in Oregon who was fined over $100k and thereby forced our of business. The reason...

They had regular customers who were a lesbian couple. They came in often and bought baked goods.

The lesbian couple decided to get married. Becuase they liked the people at the bakery and their products they came to them for the wedding cake.

The bakers refused the job becuase they're christians. On a personal level I think this is stupid.

However, they never denied the lesbian couple products that were put up for sale.

They only refused to participate in a ceramony they didn't find acceptable becuase of their religious beliefs.

I think Oregon forcing them to do that, provide services to a gay wedding is a direct infringement on the first amendment.

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you got the facts all wrong.

the bigoted bakers were fined a shitload of money for harassing and stalking the lesbian couple, even after they were ordered not to by a judge.

maybe if you bothered getting facts right, you wouldn't come off as stupid as you just did.

ThickStemz said:

the bakers declined to be deeply involved in a ceremony that was against their main stream deeply held religious convictions. It is not the same thing as the old "whites Only" segregation applied to gay and straight.

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that's exactly the same thing, actually. businesses used to try to claim religious exemption in order to not serve blacks. in both cases, they are trying to use religion to cover their bigotry so they can deny civil rights.

you are not bright at all.

go sit on the sideline and let adults talk. no more spreading your propaganda.

GreenLogician said:

ThickStemz did you find something in a bakery v gay wedding cake story to suggest that the ordeal was over catering?
Or are you going off your own experience with wedding cake makers typically catering or being at the ceremony?

In the particular case I linked above, it didn't seem to hint that catering would be involved.

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thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.

he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.

facts are not important to him.

UncleBuck said:

thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.

he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.

facts are not important to him.

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No... I used a real life example, took some facts to make a hypothetical.

I would say that if one party harassed the other it would be the lesbian couple who sued the baking couple instead of finding another baker.

You've posted no evidence and linked no sources. So I reject your assertions as just erronious.

Refusing to go outside the normal scope of your business to someone's event is not the same thing as refusing to sell them a mass produced item.

Did you see my last two messages ThickStems?
I found and linked a source detailing a different (male same-sex) case that was just about refusing to sell them a cake, not about attending the wedding.
Your turn-
Can you post evidence or link sources to support your assertion that the lesbian case was about "Refusing to go outside the normal scope of your business to someone's event"?

GreenLogician said:

Did you see my last two messages ThickStems?
I found and linked a source detailing a different (male same-sex) case that was just about refusing to sell them a cake, not about attending the wedding.
Your turn-
Can you post evidence or link sources to support your assertion that the lesbian case was about "Refusing to go outside the normal scope of your business to someone's event"?

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I just now went and looked at your post. I may have had the facts wrong, or incomplete if we're talking specifically about the lesbians in Oregon and their christian bakers.

For purposes of our conversation I think hypothetical scenarios server better to illustrate our point becuase any real life scenario is going to have differing versions of events for political purposes.

I think we might be in more agreement than you think, just emphasizing different things and wording it differently.

Suppose I make wigits. I own a store and display them there. I wouldnt have a right to stop anyone from coming into my store and buying those wigits.

Suppose also that a certian part of my business was going to private functions and setting up my wigits for people's parties. Suppose that my wigits are popular at birthday parties, barmitzva, weddings, and any festive occasion.

I think it would be within my right to decline to go to any of these events. Even if it is because of their race or sexual orientation. I don't believe in forcing people to go where they're uncomfortable.

Suppose also that sometimes people wanted to pick up a wigit and have me decorate it specially for them and they would then take it and use.... this gets more fuzzy.

I know plenty of tattoo artists who refuse to do swastikas and white power stuff. They turn down requests often.

So what if it is as simple as writing "congrats kim and sarah" on a wedding theme wigit and they would pick it up at my store. I don't think I have the right to turn that down.

Basically the more personally involved the business person has to be the more room I give them to decline the business.

UncleBuck said:

thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.

he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.

facts are not important to him.

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I fall on the side of facts, and while ThickStemz has not provided any himself, neither have you in the way of your accusations.
So far I haven't seen anyone address the even in Oregon to which he originally referred to. Everyone has just cited other examples.
You're calling him a "sock puppet on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy, and whatever other shit he can". While YOU and some others might be able to construe some of what he has said as "bigotry", there certainly hasn't been any notion of racism or white supremacy.

So if you're so focused on facts UncleBuck, why don't you make sure what you're saying isn't complete subjective, conjecture-garbage before you go blasting someone else.

Besides, this is an argument for or against Separation of Church and State.

UncleBuck said:

thickstemz made the whole fucking thing up to suit his false narrative.

he's a sock puppet here on a mission to spread bigotry, racism, white supremacy and whatever other shit he can.

facts are not important to him.

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Good Morning UncleBuck, why does everyone have to be a sock puppet to you. It takes one to know one, right?

I live in Utah....you dont know how important the separation of church and state is until you live here.

LDS kids get time off school each and every day from middle school on to attend LDS "Seminary". There are seminaries attached to every public school...middle schools, High Schools and Colleges. There is nothing similar offered to students of any other belief system.

When measures are considered in our legislature (and even at the county and city levels in many cases) those measures will not pass unless the "church" (LDS) approves of or is indifferent. This last month our medical marijuana bill was doomed as soon as the LDS church came out against it. It was changed, based solely on the churches opposition to it.

When applying for a job at the local PUBLIC college, I was asked "What ward do you belong to?" (ie, wards are the local level congregations). When I complained, I was told "They only asked to be friendly"

I can tell you right now that whoever is the next republican candidate, will recieve the electoral votes for Utah. It does not matter who it is, they will win Utah, because the church votes as a block the straight republican ticket here.

The separation of Church and State is necessary to prevent a government or governing body from become corrupted through theistic influence.

In a world where many different spiritual/religious beliefs are held it's only fair that the body that rules them not be beholden to any one particular way of thinking. In this ideal world the government and it's controllers would use logic and reasoning for many of their decisions.

Sadly it's not a perfect world and many people in our government allow their personal religious convictions to sway their decisions on matters that affect thousands of others who may not share their same religious belief.

See how this is a bad thing, ya'll?

ThickStemz said:

Sure...

I like this one becuase it forces me to adopt a principal and go against my personal beliefs.

I saw something on the news recently about a bakery owner in Oregon who was fined over $100k and thereby forced our of business. The reason...

They had regular customers who were a lesbian couple. They came in often and bought baked goods.

The lesbian couple decided to get married. Becuase they liked the people at the bakery and their products they came to them for the wedding cake.

The bakers refused the job becuase they're christians. On a personal level I think this is stupid.

However, they never denied the lesbian couple products that were put up for sale.

They only refused to participate in a ceramony they didn't find acceptable becuase of their religious beliefs.

I think Oregon forcing them to do that, provide services to a gay wedding is a direct infringement on the first amendment.

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Its amazing how Christian folks can be against gay marriage and refuse service to people based on sexual preference but turn a blind eye to the kid fucking associated with the "church"

KryptoBud said:

Its amazing how Christian folks can be against gay marriage and refuse service to people based on sexual preference but turn a blind eye to the kid fucking associated with the "church"

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If that comment was directed at me you should know I'm a christ bashing atheist.

And I still support the right of christians to not participate in gay weddings. Thus isn't a reactionary response by christians. They've always hated gays. I'll fight them in most aspects of this, but I wouldn't compel them to bake a cake for two dudes.

ThickStemz said:

If that comment was directed at me you should know I'm a christ bashing atheist.

And I still support the right of christians to not participate in gay weddings. Thus isn't a reactionary response by christians. They've always hated gays. I'll fight them in most aspects of this, but I wouldn't compel them to bake a cake for two dudes.

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It wasn't aimed at you. it was aimed at religious hypocrites you just had the subject in your post.

KryptoBud said:

It wasn't aimed at you. it was aimed at religious hypocrites you just had the subject in your post.

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They're not hypocrites. They have a different outlook on life. Under the assumptions they make what they do is consistent with their core beliefs.

That doesn't make them hypocritical.

ThickStemz said:

They're not hypocrites. They have a different outlook on life. Under the assumptions they make what they do is consistent with their core beliefs.

That doesn't make them hypocritical.

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If their core belief is two men shouldn't marry that's fine, but how can they support a business riddled with pedophilia? Two men shouldn't engage in sexual acts, but a man and a boy's ok? Sounds logical to you?

If businesses don't want to support or supply gay marriage they shouldn't have to but make it known. Put a sign in the window on the menu where ever stating no gays, whites, blacks, jews, Mexicans, fat people, Muslims, or whatever else so people know by doing business there they're supporting racicsts, bigots, and homophobes. Problem solved,

They don't deny homosexuals the ability to come in and buy off the shelf items. They simply decline special commissions to do gay events. That's different from

ThickStemz said:

No... I used a real life example

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no you didn't. you got the facts completely wrong.

ThickStemz said:

if one party harassed the other it would be the lesbian couple who sued the baking couple

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so going to a store that sells cakes, and asking to buy a cake, is harassment?

but literally stalking a couple, and giving out all of their personal information to angry bigots on the internet is not?

you are not good at trolling, and you are in fact quite stupid.

ThickStemz said:

I may have had the facts wrong

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don't worry, you did.

ThickStemz said:

I know plenty of tattoo artists who refuse to do swastikas and white power stuff. They turn down requests often.

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i thought you sold timeshares. now you hang around tattoo shops frequented by neo-nazis?

this just gets more and more believable.

ThickStemz said:

They don't deny homosexuals the ability to come in and buy off the shelf items. They simply decline special commissions to do gay events. That's different from

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http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2015/03/halfway_through_sweet_cakes_by.html

no.

you have the facts wrong.

you are lying.

lying is what morons with weak cases do.

you bigot.