week 8 white widow

hi yall, im growing whitewidow on 4x8 ebb flow with 2 1kw hps above the table. temps are controlled w/ dehumidifier and ac at 78.f. im usung gh nutes in lucas formula with ro'd water at 14-1500ppm after addback or top off of water. im growing sog style, i have about 64 girls on one table. the problem is that at week 8, most of the smaller stalks are already showing almost all red hairs, but the taller stalks are not looking like they are close to finish. the lower part of the plants are more mature than the top. i know that there will be a little growth spurt towards the end of their lifecycle, but the tops have stretched about 2 inches and now it looks like the top needs to fill out more. i was under the impression that WW is a 8 wk flower, im going to let it go another 2 wks just in case.
i flushed every week in the beginning of flower, ie the 2 week and the 4th, but ive just readded and topped off since then. im planning on changing the res today to half strength nute, then a few days from that ill change again to just h2o. am i missing something? only a few of the plants are showing any signs of burn, like a couple wilted and dried leaf tips but thats it. the plants are all in very good health with what appeared to be vigorous growth up until about a week ago. the room is sealed, well ventilated and no light pollution from anywhere.
any advice is appreciated.
im kinda stuck, dont know where im going wrong. other than the stretch, at the top, the buds look and smell insane! probably the best harvest for me yet, im at my 6th.

red hairs don't mean a whole lot, its all about the trichomes.

Couple suggestions..your nute strength seems a little high but perhaps white widow likes it that way. Also, DO NOT start running plain water through the system. Plant roots tend to get a little "saltier" with age and they can therefore tolerrate a little higher nutrient concentration. The abillity for them to uptake water and nutrients is a function of osmotic pressure and salinity differences. When you drop the salt content of your 1500 ppm down to 0 it is pretty damn shocking to your plants. FLushing is a good thing between veg and flower but don't overdo it.

If your worried they are not maturing fast enough, give them a little natural signal that its time to wrap that shit up... change your lights to 10/14.

imdaman said:

hi yall, im growing whitewidow on 4x8 ebb flow with 2 1kw hps above the table. temps are controlled w/ dehumidifier and ac at 78.f. im usung gh nutes in lucas formula with ro'd water at 14-1500ppm after addback or top off of water. im growing sog style, i have about 64 girls on one table. the problem is that at week 8, most of the smaller stalks are already showing almost all red hairs, but the taller stalks are not looking like they are close to finish. the lower part of the plants are more mature than the top. i know that there will be a little growth spurt towards the end of their lifecycle, but the tops have stretched about 2 inches and now it looks like the top needs to fill out more. i was under the impression that WW is a 8 wk flower,

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What breeder's White Widow knockoff are you growing? The original was renamed Black Widow years back so it seem clear that you are growing one of the roughly 30 different White Widow knockoffs and not the original or you would have called it Black Widow.

Of the ones I know a bit about, roughly 25 of them, they can range from 50 days to 75 days for flower and the rest may all fall somewhere in to that same range or they might be longer or possibly even shorter.

When asking advice on a strain unless it is one that only one single breeder offers it is always helpful to include what breeder's gear you are growing. Without that you could get a great deal of advice but most or all of it could be incorrect.

Next.... what color are your trichomes? That is the only sure way to know when your plants are ready to be harvested.

wow, thanks for the advice, ive been looking for you guys! ok, so heres the story, im growing in a sog fashion, but all in one flower room, with 3 tables of equal size and each their own res. so i cant decrease the lights because of the others that are behind by a few weeks to a month and a half.
as for the breeder, i received these girls from a grower im not too familiar with, he just supplied me the clones, i mothered a bunch, then have been cutting and filling my tables with such. i was told they were a type of white widow, but not what/ where/ when etc., so its unfortunately all a guess. im at my 3rd harvest coming up with this strain, and i switched my growing style to better suit the height they reach if left on their own with little to no pruning or training, and my grow space is limited in height when you add the height of the res and tray off the ground and minus the light hood with chain attached to ceiling. so i saw how they flowered to the end, and adjusted on the next crop.

it appears as if they like to go at least the whole ten weeks, ive never harvested buds that look unfinished at the top but done on the bottom. ill get pics tonight when they wake up, and check the trichs too. will the WW look obviously amber if left a little long? ive done that with blackberry kush and thats what happened, couch locked my whole gang of friends and my family

imdaman said:

as for the breeder, i received these girls from a grower im not too familiar with, he just supplied me the clones, i mothered a bunch, then have been cutting and filling my tables with such. i was told they were a type of white widow, but not what/ where/ when etc., so its unfortunately all a guess. im at my 3rd harvest coming up with this strain, and i switched my growing style to better suit the height they reach if left on their own with little to no pruning or training, and my grow space is limited in height when you add the height of the res and tray off the ground and minus the light hood with chain attached to ceiling. so i saw how they flowered to the end, and adjusted on the next crop.

it appears as if they like to go at least the whole ten weeks, ive never harvested buds that look unfinished at the top but done on the bottom. ill get pics tonight when they wake up, and check the trichs too. will the WW look obviously amber if left a little long? ive done that with blackberry kush and thats what happened, couch locked my whole gang of friends and my family

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So while you were told they are White Widow, almost certainly knockoffs because the name White Widow was used, and I am not saying you should have reason to doubt they are one of the many White Widow knockoffs, but they are actually mystery genetics since you have no breeder information to go by that would give you some general idea of how long they would normally flower.


That leaves you with trichomes to tell you when to harvest. Will they turn amber? Yes, as THC oxidizes/is lost and transforms into CBN the trichomes will turn amber. If that's what you like, trading higher lever of THC and increased potency for nearly useless CBN, then by all means, go for it. If you wait long enough, enough THC will oxidize and be lost as it transforms into CBN thus giving you the amber colored trichomes you believe are a sign of the best time to harvest.

...or you could just tell him he wants em to look milky, not amber.

bobbypyn said:

...or you could just tell him he wants em to look milky, not amber.

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I wouldn't derive as much pleasure wording it that way plus it would not even give a short less than detailed explanation as to why and it would appear more an opinion or personal preference than fact.

Brick Top said:

I wouldn't derive as much pleasure wording it that way plus it would not even give a short less than detailed explanation as to why and it would appear more an opinion or personal preference than fact.

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Yes I do know to look at the trichs to see when they turn approx 65-70% milky. I did that on the last pull, but the herb came out very heady, with not much body high. I'd like a stronger body high with a creeper head high, so I figured I'd let them go longer this time. Maybe not all amber.
As for this mystery weed, I don't have much on it, but pics might describe better than I can. Id like to gain more knowledge regarding this strain, are there completely different parameters to grow them each by? Do they appear all different if grown the same way? And that's if I even have one of them.
I'm obviously not too knowledgeable in this subject, any info is greatly appreciated.

imdaman said:

Yes I do know to look at the trichs to see when they turn approx 65-70% milky. I did that on the last pull, but the herb came out very heady, with not much body high. I'd like a stronger body high with a creeper head high, so I figured I'd let them go longer this time. Maybe not all amber.

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If you want couch-lock, purchase strains that are high in CBD, that is where true couch-lock comes from. Not from lost/oxidized THC that turns into nearly worthless CBN. Cannabinol is the primary degradation product of THC and increases in concentration with plant age. The concentration of this product in the bud is heavily dependent on the time of harvest. Harvesting the bud at a late stage also means that the concentration of CBN in relation to THC will be higher when compared to the peak of THC production.

CBN content increases as THC degrades. It is only mildly psychoactive and can cause "fuzzy head", drowsiness, disorientation and sleepiness in the smoker. That's not true couch-lock. That's fake couch-lock, that's herb that was grown beyond it's peak potential in an attempt to make up for having picked the wrong strain in the first place and to try to make up for a lack of CBD by trading off the high level of very psychoactive THC for increased levels of very mildly psychoactive CBN.

If you want true couch-lock don't purchase by big strain name or even high percentages of THC and then try to play pot alchemist and attempt to turn it into something it can never be. Pick the strains you grow by CBD percentages.

Juiced Marijuana Offered to Medical Users as Alternative to Smoking
June 15, 2010

A California physician is offering his medical-marijuana patients a liquefied version of the drug that he says won't produce much of a buzz but does contain chemicals helpful in treating a variety of illnesses, the Washington Post reported June 1.


Willets, Calif., physician William Courtney, M.D., said that marijuana with high levels of cannabidiol (CBD) seems to have the most medical potential; ironically, CBD levels seem to be lowest in marijuana strains of the plant that are highest in THC -- the main psychoactive substance in marijuana.


"What has happened is, almost all strains available in America through the black market are THC concentrates," said Ethan Russo, senior medical adviser to GW Pharmaceuticals, which is developing the marijuana-based pain medication Sativex. "The CBD in almost all cases has been bred out. The reason is cannabis in this country has been cultivated for its intoxicating effect."

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Sam the Skunkman says that nearly all modern cannabis is pretty much CBD-free or the levels are so low as to be miniscule, landrace indicas are the way to go.

Right now there's simply no strains available where cbd will make up more than 2% of the overall cannabinoids (.5% of the flower weight) and no way of cultivating a noticeably higher cbd content. For the most part conversion of cbg into cbd is controlled by a single gene (Bd) which is codominant with the gene that converts cbg into thc. For example a plant that inherits a Bd gene from one parent and a Bt gene from the other will have roughly equal content of Cbd and Thc. However, if the plant is homozygous for Bd it will have very little thc and if its homozygous for Bt it will have very little Cbd.

While it is true that afghani landraces can have a high cbd content. Since having a Bd gene will replace half of the thc content with cbd seed companies always remove the Bd allele from the gene pool in order to maximize thc potency and stay competitive.

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If you want couch-lock purchase by CBD percentages, not high THC percentages because that will only assure there will be little to no true couch-lock to be found. Don't pick by famous strain names and high percentages of THC ... pick from pure landrace indicas and select the one or ones with the highest percentage of CBD if you want true couch-lock.

It's either than or ruin the famous name high THC strains that you will pick and grow instead by trying to make them give you a false/fake couch-lock effect at the cost of thrown away THC.

I've even heard of people going 8/16 the last two weeks to get WW to shit out more resin.

bricktop, thank you. im growing this for my dad who has stage 4 colon cancer, the strains that have helped the most seemed to also have couchlock effect, so i therefore assumed that by choosing a hi thc breed i could aslo get a strong couchlock thru maturity. your information is valuable to me, im intrigued. i will keep an eye out for landrace indicas, by chance, where and how would i acquire seeds, im in a medical friendly state. are there seedbanks that carry such strains?! it seems almost counterproductive, as your articel stated, since breeds nowadays are breed for euphoria, as opposed to antiemesis and pain.

tonaloc, as i said earlier, i have multiple tables of different stage growth in the same flowering room, so i cant shorten the day without effecting the growth rate of the other tables. i just added a CO2 system with tanks and regulator with auto sniffer that releases gas as needed for set levels, so we shall see if it truly increases yield and bud development. set to 1500 ppm. makes you light headed when you stay the room

imdaman said:

bricktop, thank you. im growing this for my dad who has stage 4 colon cancer, the strains that have helped the most seemed to also have couchlock effect, so i therefore assumed that by choosing a hi thc breed i could aslo get a strong couchlock thru maturity. your information is valuable to me, im intrigued. i will keep an eye out for landrace indicas, by chance, where and how would i acquire seeds, im in a medical friendly state. are there seedbanks that carry such strains?! it seems almost counterproductive, as your articel stated, since breeds nowadays are breed for euphoria, as opposed to antiemesis and pain.

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The best advice I could give you is to Google dispensaries in your state and see which one or ones clearly seem to be more professional and that offer the best selections and if you need to call or email to get more detailed information on high CBD strains, call or email, and then purchase the very best option or options you find.

As part of the article I posted from June 2010 said;

Willets, Calif., physician William Courtney, M.D., said that marijuana with high levels of cannabidiol (CBD) seems to have the most medical potential; ironically, CBD levels seem to be lowest in marijuana strains of the plant that are highest in THC -- the main psychoactive substance in marijuana.

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High CBD stains seem to have the most medicinal potential. In another part of the article it pointed out how the strains we purchase through seedbanks, what in the article was called "the black market" have very little CBD in their genetic makeup:

"The CBD in almost all cases has been bred out. The reason is cannabis in this country has been cultivated for its intoxicating effect."

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And then there was the bit by Sam the Skunkman that said:

Sam the Skunkman says that nearly all modern cannabis is pretty much CBD-free or the levels are so low as to be miniscule, landrace indicas are the way to go.

Right now there's simply no strains available where cbd will make up more than 2% of the overall cannabinoids (.5% of the flower weight) and no way of cultivating a noticeably higher cbd content. For the most part conversion of cbg into cbd is controlled by a single gene (Bd) which is codominant with the gene that converts cbg into thc. For example a plant that inherits a Bd gene from one parent and a Bt gene from the other will have roughly equal content of Cbd and Thc. However, if the plant is homozygous for Bd it will have very little thc and if its homozygous for Bt it will have very little Cbd.

While it is true that afghani landraces can have a high cbd content. Since having a Bd gene will replace half of the thc content with cbd seed companies always remove the Bd allele from the gene pool in order to maximize thc potency and stay competitive.

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Sadly what has happened is in the quest to create the 'Holy Grail' the cannabinoid with the most medicinal properties has pretty much been bred out of modern strains by the 'Dutch Masters' and others.

Not only is that something terrible for many or most medicinal patients but I find it a bit ironically confusing since more and more recreational tokers keep clamoring couch-lock, couch-lock, couch-lock is the best, give me more couch-lock ... but the 'Dutch Masters' keep breeding more and more of it out of their strains which means they are ignoring the wishes of many tokers, and the needs of many medicinal patients, rather than creating and offering strains that would give each more of what some really need and what many others really want.

Someone needs to make a trek to a few regions where landrace strains that are high in CBD remain in their pure unsullied unpolluted form and gather up as much genetics as they can and begin breeding for higher and higher percentages of CBD for medicinal patients and couch-lock lovers, giving some what they actually NEED and the other was they actually WANT, and just not worry about any press they may get about how the strains are not high in THC levels .. because the two, high percentages of CBD and high percentages of THV do not and cannot go hand in hand, they are to a degree mutually exclusive of each other since; "if the plant is homozygous for Bd it will have very little THC and if its homozygous for Bt it will have very little CBD."

The 'Dutch Masters,' and other breeders, have to pick which to work with, what to try to create, what to try to improve on for what purpose and for decades Mr. Toad's Wild Ride has been what has been their number one, their singular goal, rather than meeting the needs of people suffering from any or several of a long list of medical problems.

World of seeds have a landrace collection with pure indicas. They claim to be original strains from specific regions. I have not grown any so I can't tell you for sure, just what they claim and that I've seen them at attitude. I can tell you that I've grown g13 w.w. and greenhouse w.w. and both took 9+ weeks for about 20% amber.

420forme said:

World of seeds have a landrace collection with pure indicas. They claim to be original strains from specific regions. I have not grown any so I can't tell you for sure, just what they claim and that I've seen them at attitude. I can tell you that I've grown g13 w.w. and greenhouse w.w. and both took 9+ weeks for about 20% amber.

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I would say that was too much amber, 5% to 10% max would be my suggestion, but to each their own ... even if it is an error.

Sometime in the future try growing Mr. Nice Seeds Black Widow and see how the real "White Widow" compares to the knockoffs you grew. Unless you have some bad luck or just mess up, you will notice a difference.

To each their own, even it is an error. Lol. Who pee'd in your Cheerios today. How can you say I was wrong to wait for that much amber, there was still clear trichs as well as long white pistols at 15-20% amber and growth had halted. Either way I wasn't impressed with either w.w. and don't have much interest with the strain anymore so I wont be trying black widow, I would probally do it wrong according to you anyways.

420forme said:

To each their own, even it is an error. Lol. Who pee'd in your Cheerios today. How can you say I was wrong to wait for that much amber, there was still clear trichs as well as long white pistols at 15-20% amber and growth had halted. Either way I wasn't impressed with either w.w. and don't have much interest with the strain anymore so I wont be trying black widow, I would probally do it wrong according to you anyways.

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No one "pee'd in" my "Cheerios." I am just being my normal rough as a cob self.

And it would be a mistake to decide to not try the original Cup winning genetics of Black Widow based on how a couple knockoff White Widows turned out.


How can I say it was an error on your part? Because I understand trichomes more than most people here do, and I also understand that pistil color is not nearly the clear cut needed sign of a plant being 'ripe' that most people here believe it to be.

Well in the interest of learning, 70% cloudy, 10% clear, 20% amber would be considered too late? For a typical 50/50 Ind/sat mix?
Also if I had a pure indica that had a high CBD, you wouldn't have to wait for amber too have good cbd effect.?

legallyflying said:

If your worried they are not maturing fast enough, give them a little natural signal that its time to wrap that shit up... change your lights to 10/14.

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Lol funniest shit ive read all day.

420forme said:

Also if I had a pure indica that had a high CBD, you wouldn't have to wait for amber too have good cbd effect.?

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Nope ... amber is not a sign of CBD accumulation. It is a sign that THC had oxidized, that it has been lost and transformed into being CBN and CBN is not CBD.



THC BIOSYNTHESIS






CANNABINOL (CBN)




Cannabinol is the primary degradation product of THC and increases in concentration with plant age. The concentration of this product in the bud is heavily dependent on the time of harvest. Harvesting the bud at a late stage also means that the concentration of CBN in relation to THC will be higher when compared to the peak of THC production.

CBN increases as THC degrades. It is only mildly psychoactive and can cause "fuzzy head", drowsiness, disorientation and sleepiness in the smoker.


CANNABIDIOL (CBD)





CBD is generally considered to have more medicinal properties than THC. It appears to relieve convulsion, inflammation (and thereby also migraines), anxiety and nausea. That is why strains with a high concentration of CBD is suitable for medicinal use.

Although CBD has its own particular medicinal value it is not more important than THC when it comes to treating various afflictions. It is the interaction between the two that gives rise to the effect that sometimes alleviates the symptoms of various medical conditions.

CBD has a greater affinity for the CB2 receptor than for the CB1 receptor, meaning that its effect is mostly in the body and not so much in the head. CBD shares a precursor with THC and is the main cannabinoid in low-THC cannabis strains.

Landrace strains, usually of indica heritage, contain higher concentrations of CBD than recreational drug strains, which are usually bred towards a higher concentration of THC. This is the reason why strains containing high ratios of CBD can be difficult to find.



A true couch-lock/body buzz/body stone comes from high percentages of CBD, not high percentages of CBN.