Veteran Needs Help. PICS Flowering Day 64

Dude.. your plants look EXACTLY like mine right now, although I'm not seeing the second flush of white pistils you report.

My problem turned out to be pH -- when a plant processes nutes in a pot, the pH is reduced. And, when nutrients are broken down for use, salts are left behind. That's a good bet for what you have happening. Have you checked pH? If not, run enough water thru the pot to get it coming out the bottom and measure the pH of this. A 6.5 is ideal.. I'll bet you get a 4.0ish

I'll bet a buck-two-fifty your pH is low, not high. My tap water is 8.0, I don't pH it, and 6 weeks of using it did absolutely nothing to counteract the pH drop (mine was a 4.0 when I finally figured it out). Most soils for indoor use are very high in organic matter, which buffers toward the acid side. Thus, these soils can suck up a ton of high pH water without moving, but put in a down-driver like nutes and it drops like a rock.

I just flushed mine until the pots drained out at pH 6.0, and added 2tps of fast-acting lime to carry it to the mid 6's and keep it there. They look better to me today, but that may be wishful thinking, too.

About the second flush of white pistils -- I just saw posts today from a very experienced grower that this is the "second surge" of flower growth, and that a lot of people are tricked into harvesting at the first appearance of cloudy trich's. If I remember where I saw that, I'll link it back to you.

Here's a link to my thread over the same issues.. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/165111-good-grow-going-bad-need.html The advice gets better toward the end.

And check this for Panhead's discussion on "second flush" of budding: https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/160746-time-yet-2.html

definately PH problem I have also seen this with too high water temp. High water temp will kill roots almost instantly combined with unbalanced PH = Death, you will not do anymore damage but you also wont benefit by keeping them in there any longer if the roots are fried

please do let us know when you get the PH results.

Okay,

First off I want to thank ALL OF YOU. You all have given me great coherent advice, and the best part is it is all within the same vecinity.

My root system is healthy. White, not brown. But today I have noticed very small signs of this disorder reaching my "Sweet leafs."

For the record and to be honest, I have not tested my run off because I let a friend borrow my Ph testing kit for his fish tank. (He doesn't know why I have it!)

House water- 8.6
After adding proper solution of nutes- 7.2ish (its a color chart in which you add drops to test the Ph and compare)
I HAVE NOT as of yet tested my run-off as previously stated.

My Hpothesis:

After combining all of your (IMO) seasoned and well educated hypothesis', I believe that the problem is a combination of it all.

I believe my plant is unable to process nutrients properly due to a Ph imbalance (A thanks to Curious.George for brining this possibility to my attention). I personally believe it to be higher in the scale but do not know for sure. Thus the reason it is showing signs of either nutrient deficiency or nute burn.

Also I noticed in my run-off pan what looks to be a salt/nute residue build-up. I haven't flushed in about a month, so a possible high salinity could be affecting this. Thanks to the above poster who pointed out the distribution of burning "tips and inside healthy, middle dead". I believe that too high of a salinity can have similar effects as high Ph and nute problems.

My Plan of Action:

I need to water her again, so I am going to go to the store and buy some distilled water (Ph and nutrient neutral). I am going to flush her well with this and monitor for any signs of improvement.

If she does not improve, and especially if any more damage occurs to sweet leafs, I will have to bypass her potential "second wind" and harvest.

Again I thank all of you for your advice and support, I will continue to monitor the situation and will inform you all within the next 32 hours.

Peace -BlessAmerica

BlessAmerica said:

Okay,

First off I want to thank ALL OF YOU. You all have given me great coherent advice, and the best part is it is all within the same vecinity.

My root system is healthy. White, not brown. But today I have noticed very small signs of this disorder reaching my "Sweet leafs."

For the record and to be honest, I have not tested my run off because I let a friend borrow my Ph testing kit for his fish tank. (He doesn't know why I have it!)

House water- 8.6
After adding proper solution of nutes- 7.2ish (its a color chart in which you add drops to test the Ph and compare)
I HAVE NOT as of yet tested my run-off as previously stated.

My Hpothesis:

After combining all of your (IMO) seasoned and well educated hypothesis', I believe that the problem is a combination of it all.

I believe my plant is unable to process nutrients properly due to a Ph imbalance (A thanks to Curious.George for brining this possibility to my attention). I personally believe it to be higher in the scale but do not know for sure. Thus the reason it is showing signs of either nutrient deficiency or nute burn.

Also I noticed in my run-off pan what looks to be a salt/nute residue build-up. I haven't flushed in about a month, so a possible high salinity could be affecting this. Thanks to the above poster who pointed out the distribution of burning "tips and inside healthy, middle dead". I believe that too high of a salinity can have similar effects as high Ph and nute problems.

My Plan of Action:

I need to water her again, so I am going to go to the store and buy some distilled water (Ph and nutrient neutral). I am going to flush her well with this and monitor for any signs of improvement.

If she does not improve, and especially if any more damage occurs to sweet leafs, I will have to bypass her potential "second wind" and harvest.

Again I thank all of you for your advice and support, I will continue to monitor the situation and will inform you all within the next 32 hours.

Peace -BlessAmerica

Click to expand...

Good plan.. I'll stay subscribed to hear the result.

You do know about the "3 volume" rule on flushing -- run an amount of water thru equal to 3X the volume of your pot.

Good luck.

good luck let us no how it turns out

BlessAmerica said:

Again I really want to thank all of you for your advice. I didn't expect this much of a turn out, but since all of your advice was within a particular area I think I have discovered my issue (as previously stated). I bought some distilled water and am about to flush her with it. I will let you know sometime within the next 48 hours how she looks. Thanks again. -BlessAmerica

Click to expand...

This has been an informative thread and I am dying to find out the results. Good Luck...

ever heard of ph up & down? Its gonna save you $ on bottled water. I think your problem is 2 sided. Micronutrient lock out is is making it impossible for your plant to process p&K. the Lockout comes from high ph, and most likely since you are this far into its life cycle, the plant has gone root bound (what size container are you in?) Both are causeing your girl to flip out. Get a meter those drop kits are worthless. check your runoff adjust your nutrient ph so that the runoff will be in the mid 6s and water. grow in 10 gal pots next time to youl be so stoked.

picturemerollin said:

ever heard of ph up & down? Its gonna save you $ on bottled water. I think your problem is 2 sided. Micronutrient lock out is is making it impossible for your plant to process p&K. the Lockout comes from high ph, and most likely since you are this far into its life cycle, the plant has gone root bound (what size container are you in?) Both are causeing your girl to flip out. Get a meter those drop kits are worthless. check your runoff adjust your nutrient ph so that the runoff will be in the mid 6s and water. grow in 10 gal pots next time to youl be so stoked.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but wrong on several counts, bro.

PH up-and-down will adjust your pH, but it won't flush the residual salts (that's what Clearex is for). I have no quibble with these products.. I'm sure they work. But, why pay $30-40 for things that water and a $5 bag of lime will do just the same?

Lockout happens with both high and low pH; some things get locked out on both ends; some just on one end or another.

Almost always, pH goes down, not up during a potted grow -- the biological process in soil creates acids; added nutes are acidic, commercial soils are heavily buffered toward acidity right out of the bag (lots of organic matter.. spits off humic acids..pH drops). In nature, you have massive buffering and waste dispersal potential. Not in a pot, though..

Root binding? Didn't hear/recall the size of the pot, but root binding can be overcome just with proper watering and nutes -- root binding is mostly a myth. As long as he's in at least a 1-gal, no worries if the other things are kept right.

Meters are superior, yes, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that BlessAmerica's pH is way low, and will be easily recongnized by even the cheapest tests. Colorimetry is very solid for pH; not so much for other things. Why?

When measuring pH, you're measuring one thing --> hydrogen ions. When you're measuring say, nitrogen, with a cheap test, that test is slated to measure ONE FORM of an element that comes in severable usable compounds.

Cheerio..

Myth? Ha! by the way your plants in your gallery look root bound. just sayin...

Kriegs said:

Almost always, pH goes down, not up during a potted grow -- the biological process in soil creates acids; added nutes are acidic

Click to expand...

sorry to hijack this thread, I still want to know the ph of the original post, but something interesting came up.

Kriegs, I was hoping you would shed some light on something I have been struggling with for some time. I would appreicate it.

Here is a little background: I was experimenting with hydro organic in coco coir with beneficial microbes. My ph would go up due to the biological activity. I know it was the microbes because H2O2 would instantly stop the ph going up fast. I quit using the organics and am now going purly salt nutes and H2O2 for now.

Here is the question: Which bioligical processes cause the ph to go down?

I was thinking that if I had a good understanding of which bioligical processes cause ph to go down. I could give the hydro organic thing another go. Thanks

curious.george said:

sorry to hijack this thread, I still want to know the ph of the original post, but something interesting came up.

Kriegs, I was hoping you would shed some light on something I have been struggling with for some time. I would appreicate it.

Here is a little background: I was experimenting with hydro organic in coco coir with beneficial microbes. My ph would go up due to the biological activity. I know it was the microbes because H2O2 would instantly stop the ph going up fast. I quit using the organics and am now going purly salt nutes and H2O2 for now.

Here is the question: Which bioligical processes cause the ph to go down?

I was thinking that if I had a good understanding of which bioligical processes cause ph to go down. I could give the hydro organic thing another go. Thanks

Click to expand...

As much as I'd love to, I don't know if I can answer your question adequately for hydro. I haven't done hydro, or seriously studied it. I'll provide a little additional insight on indoor soil pH, which may help you see the answers for hydro more clearly when you come across hydro-specific info.

One thing that is clear and doesn't require hydro-growing to understand: hydro is a far less buffered environment. PH swings come faster and harder; this is because there are no physical soil particles where buffer compounds can "park" and sit there until they're needed. In soil, you have ionic compounds loosely attached to soil particles -- when excess hydrogen comes along (pH down-driver); basic buffer ions release from particles and capture those hydrogens by forming neutral compounds. The same particles can have acid buffers that release when excess hydroxide (up-driver) comes along.

What happens in pots filled with potting soil is kind of a triple-whammy: You have a soil medium buffered toward acidity -- there is lots of wood material in commercial soils; these materials break down whether you have plants in there or not, and give off humic acids in the process. Natural soils outside have much, much more mineral matter, which mostly (not always) buffers toward alkaline. You then have the biological activity at the root tips -- the absorption of the nutrients can leave hydrogen ions behind (drops pH). And lastly, the nute products themselves are very acid. Ever pH a liquid nutrient? Jesus.. that stuff is like battery acid.

I would encourage you to look into the biochemistry of mycorhizal actitivty; should be plenty of info on the net. In hydro, I think this would play a bigger role in pH than in soil. In soil, the chemistry of the soil medium is an overwhelmingly greater force. This is NOT TO SAY that mycorhizal function isn't important in soil; it just doesn't dominate the pH factor.

picturemerollin said:

Myth? Ha! by the way your plants in your gallery look root bound. just sayin...

Click to expand...

My plants look like shit right now, first to admit..but

Root-binding is a myth in the way it's often portrayed on this site -- as an answer to problems we can't otherwise figure out. But it's not a total myth -- I doubt you could grow a 5-foot plant in a coke can, but plants will go a long, long time with their roots wrapping round and round again without ill effect if water and nutes are kept right (the latter is where I blew it..). Commercial nurseries do it all the time; thousands of plants at a time.

I checked my runoff pH -- a 4.0 -- that's much clearer evidence of what my problem is than a vague "root bound" solution. And...

I know directly my plants are not root-bound, as I just pulled a couple males a couple weeks ago that were just a tad short of the ones in my pics. I examined them closely for root health and occupancy; had about 70-80% pot occupancy, which is ideal, and could not find one dead root hair under 60X mag. That was before..

My plants got fried by 3 doses of FF nutes in about 2 weeks time. A fuckin' dumbass move, I admit, and my plants, I also admit, looked like shit for awhile, but the bud growth has sprung back up in the last couple days after a flush and pH adjustment. Checked 'em again last night -- holdin' steady at 6.5 on the money. That, plus obvious new bud growth = real solution.

BTW, anybody every pH that FF shit directly? Shit's like battery acid..

Not trying to be defensive or rag on your argument, bro... root-binding can be an issue in extreme cases. I'm just trying to contribute a little deeper information to the best of my ability. I hope it's more helpful to people than...

ur nuts r wrong, dood...lol!

Kriegs,
ive had the exact same problems with fox farm soil and nutes, and you have nailed it on the head. you know alot about microbology. ++

only my opinion but i would carry on flushing whilst checkin trichs until u see 20% amber 80%cloud, u wont do ur bud any harm hangin on a while longer, if anything ul gain weight, the last wk is when they fatten up the most, even a fiew days more can make a big diff to yeild but dont forget to keep checkin those trichs for that magical 20% amber, goodluck

taffo143 said:

only my opinion but i would carry on flushing whilst checkin trichs until u see 20% amber 80%cloud, u wont do ur bud any harm hangin on a while longer, if anything ul gain weight, the last wk is when they fatten up the most, even a fiew days more can make a big diff to yeild but dont forget to keep checkin those trichs for that magical 20% amber, goodluck

Click to expand...

That seems like good advice. I only say "seems" cause I haven't fully experienced it. But, I have seen a few reports from peeps who put out nice bud that say don't sweat it... they'll finish anyway, pH and nute burns and all. I notice that big-time on mine too -- despite the little issues we're having right now, they protect that bud at all costs. It's really cool...

JBlaze99 said:

Kriegs,
ive had the exact same problems with fox farm soil and nutes, and you have nailed it on the head. you know alot about microbology. ++

Click to expand...

Appreciate it.. too bad I knew so little about FF b4 I used it... well, let's face it.. 3 feedings in 2 wks is pretty stupid no matter what. Got blinded with greed, and by the cool labels.

Hey Everyone,

Well I must say I am very happy with the outcome of this thread. I only hope it can serve to help others with similar problems. In my last few years of growing I've seen too many people blame nute burn for alot of the problems. While burning is no doubt a major issue, I think we all here can agree that without the proper Ph and flushing out toxic salts, you will see many symptoms of nute burn that are not in fact nute burn.....

I want to give a special thanks to Kriegs, I would +rep you more, but I'm not allowed.

Curious.George, Your not jacking this thread, if it is of use to me and others, by all means ask/post away.

Here is some info some of you may want to know, (after reading the previous posts)

Flowering day: 69

Tricomes: 100% cloudy

Many foxtails still growing

Container Size: 3 gal

Tap Water Ph: 8.6
Britta Filtered Tap Water: 7.8
Ph of filtered post ferts: 6.4
Soil Ph (Tested 4 weeks ago): 3.6ish (This is where I believe Kreigs is hitting the nail on the head!)

I was unable to test the Ph of the run-off when I flushed yesterday, but I will say that the run-off expelled a dark urine color. I flushed it until it ran out clear.

Also I have noticed a salt like residue, like that on the top of marine tanks, building up in my run-off pan from the last 3 waterings.

Upon flushing the degradation of the plants leafs has ceased. But even though it continues to bloom I am debating harvesting within the next few days to curtail any further damage.

Thanks again for all of your help/support/advice.

BlessAmerica