Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

For 357:

I was asked for tips with using the Bio Canna line: terra plus, vega/flores, bioboost.

Specific tips for Bio Canna products include:
-Make sure to feed from the get go with the terra plus, it has almost zero charge.
-Some add perlite for extra air/drainage. But I choose not to. I'm testing CocoNot instead. Terra plus straight out the bag has worked well.
-Have extra supplements around, something with extra N, and something with extra P/K. Nature's nectars make a vegan N, a quality organic P, and technaflora soluble seaweed has lots of K.
-No mid-cycle flushing with veganics. And don't start flushing until 10-7 days before the end. Nothing to flush.
-Bio Canna products work best with a thriving microbial community (like all organics). Microbe teas, soluble microbes, anything that will constantly inoculate can only help. Bountea, HN soluble microbes, Mayan microzyme, humic/fulvic, lots of molasses, multiple enzyme products too. No need to pH, or ppm. Just do all the proper things to your water: triple carbon filter, let it bubble, and correct temp.
-Feed by the directions. If there is a range start on the low end and plan on going to full strength plus 25%. And then, if you run CO2 or lots of light or are just good, plan on supplementing with the other stuff during the heaviest feeding parts of the life cycle (full-veg and mid-flower).
-No worries other than underfeeding really, and it's totally safe. I've drank my full formula (minus enzymes and microbes).
-Top feed, for sure. So thick. And shake the bottles often and hard, check for sludge because you will be missing out.
-Flush your feeding line/res, after every feed. This stuff is like half digested food, it goes bad quickly when mixed with the whole formula.
-Check each pot individually when you water. A proper wet/dry cycle is CRUCIAL (again, this is mostly simple organics)

eh, the nit picking...
i don't know, nullis, what you're really trying to prove, or rather, contribute. but anyone who reads this and has the slightest interest of what matt is on about, would appreciate this thread.

for me, the term veganism is too extreme, in any scenario really, maybe achievable in diet, perhaps...PERHAPS, but not in lifestyle.

either way, why would you have to sacrifice purity for potency, whether you supplement the plant with animal based fertilizers, or plant based fertilizers what does it matter? you give the plant what it wants/needs!

and okay, maybe you're right about everything you said about ABF and how that is nature's way, but since when has indoor growing been nature's way?

pura vida by technofloura is an excellent product! all vegan and organic. works sooo good! I had a bunch I got for free when I worked at the hydro shop. used it on my indoor and outdoor last year! loved it. especially good for indoor cause it isnt stinky at all.

upthearsenal said:

i don't know, nullis, what you're really trying to prove, or rather, contribute. but anyone who reads this and has the slightest interest of what matt is on about, would appreciate this thread...
and okay, maybe you're right about everything you said about ABF and how that is nature's way, but since when has indoor growing been nature's way?

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UptheA with the mature post again. Thanks. The un-natural indoor environment is exactly what pushed this idea forward. These indoor heavy feeding scenarios are when problems, like poop-residue building up in the media, arise.

Matt Rize said:

For 357:

I was asked for tips with using the Bio Canna line: terra plus, vega/flores, bioboost.

Specific tips for Bio Canna products include:
-Make sure to feed from the get go with the terra plus, it has almost zero charge.
-Some add perlite for extra air/drainage. But I choose not to. I'm testing CocoNot instead. Terra plus straight out the bag has worked well.
-Have extra supplements around, something with extra N, and something with extra P/K. Nature's nectars make a vegan N, a quality organic P, and technaflora soluble seaweed has lots of K.
-No mid-cycle flushing with veganics. And don't start flushing until 10-7 days before the end. Nothing to flush.
-Bio Canna products work best with a thriving microbial community (like all organics). Microbe teas, soluble microbes, anything that will constantly inoculate can only help. Bountea, HN soluble microbes, Mayan microzyme, humic/fulvic, lots of molasses, multiple enzyme products too. No need to pH, or ppm. Just do all the proper things to your water: triple carbon filter, let it bubble, and correct temp.
-Feed by the directions. If there is a range start on the low end and plan on going to full strength plus 25%. And then, if you run CO2 or lots of light or are just good, plan on supplementing with the other stuff during the heaviest feeding parts of the life cycle (full-veg and mid-flower).
-No worries other than underfeeding really, and it's totally safe. I've drank my full formula (minus enzymes and microbes).
-Top feed, for sure. So thick. And shake the bottles often and hard, check for sludge because you will be missing out.
-Flush your feeding line/res, after every feed. This stuff is like half digested food, it goes bad quickly when mixed with the whole formula.
-Check each pot individually when you water. A proper wet/dry cycle is CRUCIAL (again, this is mostly simple organics)

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wow! you're the man brother!! Thank you much for the tips.

hey just out curiosity have you grown with or tried and nugs grown with the subcool super soil mix and if so how did it compare?

threefiftyse7en said:

hey just out curiosity have you grown with or tried and nugs grown with the subcool super soil mix and if so how did it compare?

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No, I just joined this forum a week ago. I've read the formula, great mix.

Of note: I try all sorts of different genetics, all organic, grown by many different quality growers. I get the inside tip from dispensaries on what to try. Some of the organics I try are way more potent, but not as clear, more harsh, and the after affects are way different.

gotcha... I will definitely agree with ya there my friend.

But poop residues do not simply "build up" in soils (what are you crapaphobic?); they are continually processed and decomposed by detritivores and microbes. These organisms themselves leave behind excreta, then they die and/or are consumed and excreted; that excreta and those carcasses go back up for more decomposition... by future generations of detritivores and microbes... which excrete, and/or are consumed and excreted... to feed more detritivores and microbes... which excrete, and/or are consumed and excreted... feeding the detritivores and microbes again... more excreta and miniature animal carcasses... more detritivores and microbes... excreta, carcasses, excreta... detritivores, microbes... carcasses, excreta... microbes... see where this is going? Well it doesn't stop; it happens forever.

Indoors or outdoors: if your soil is alive as it should be then this is exactly what is happening within it. In fact, I would say that the only poop there that has the potential to build up would be that of... detritivores and microbes! And that is going to happen whether you supply 'plant-based' nutrients or not.
Besides the great, bright artificial sun that I have hanging in my little artificial sky; I would say that mimicking the natural environment is exactly what I am trying to accomplish. Even that artificial sun is there to replicate what the real sun does.

wow! you're the man brother!! Thank you much for the tips.

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your welcome. also, forgot to say that a little plant based organic surfactant (saponins and yucca extract usually) will help.

let the haters hate. no one can stand in my limelight, while hiding in the shadows

1600+ views in a week is that good?

so something along the lines of Roots Trinity would be cool as the surfactant? Or am I mixed up?

Also, what's your take on foliar feeding with the boost? if you do choose to foliar would you say it has an adverse effect on the taste?

threefiftyse7en said:

so something along the lines of Roots Trinity would be cool as the surfactant? Or am I mixed up?

Also, what's your take on foliar feeding with the boost? if you do choose to foliar would you say it has an adverse effect on the taste?

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I'm pretty sure Trinity is a rhizosphere catalyst. Common surfactants include: organic coco wet, organic wet betty from AN, even dr. bronners baby soap.

I'm big on foliar feeding the bioboost. I'm big on foliar feeding in general with veganics. No, I have not found any residual taste from the bioboost. I always alternate between a good foliar soak and plain water. Also, I'm not really feeding NPK via foliar unless I have to. I like to foliar with the bioboost, a little fulvic, microbes, and a little organic surfactant.

My local grow store is still without the bio terra plus. Has anyone seen it here in the US?

There is a rumor going around that BioCanna products are being pulled in the US. I had to make a couple phone calls, but have found this out:

The BioCanna nutes are not going anywhere, YES! But the Bio Terra Plus is not likely to return to the US.

The Bio terra plus has an ingredient that is technically classified as "biological" and the US doesn't accept that. The reality comes down to Canna not needing money. They would rather keep their current mix "as-is" than change it to be acceptable for the US market regulations. It must be nice leading the canna-world, and not needing american money to push profits up.

The guy at the store said Roots Organics soil is the closest, but I've used it and the two simply do not compare. Plus, the reviews of RO soil are mixed at best.

Well, next round has begun. I'm doing the Blackberry Kush again. These babies are the real deal, autoflowering like they should. Already resinous, even though they are just babies. And I have one blue cheese going that I need a home for.

The media this round is something new for me. I've had to come up with something because the Bio Terra Plus is not coming back and all I can do for now is try to recreate it.

My mix is 95% natural, and 99% vegan nutrition. I used: CocoNot, Sunshine #4, Bio Terra Plus, and Just Right Xtra. The Just Right is something new made with GH products. The overall mix is a combination of bark, coco, peat, and a little bit of perlite. The non-vegan ingredient is a bone product in the Xtra.

Pictures to follow.

Big up the ganja geeks! Great week of shooting film up in Kushland.

Here is an interesting perspective on the history of the Blackberry Kush

"Master breeder, Nebu derivative from NorCal bagseeds but still unknown genetics tho I told my friends that if you crossed flo with a pre-98 bubba you would get this. Oregon purple thai in it imho. Frosty and staunch with deep flavors. A fine example of the Blackberry phonotype. Earthy undertones with a dark berry burst highlight this magnificent strain that is at times rather crappy at many coops. Hard to grow and somewhat unstable Im told. But if you cant find dakind then youre in biznatch. Very effective pain relief as well as some euphoria that creeps into "stoned" bakeyness aswell. A sweet change of pace curveball to mix up that og routine many of us socallers fall into. but what an og hole to fall for. gem found at hr."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cannababble/3199237649/

OR this guy:

"What are the genetics behind bbk? I have heard its just a straight up Blackbbery x OG but I have also heard Blackberry x Bubba x White Rhino and Blackberry x White Rhino x OG so I just wanted to know what the official genetics are."

http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-growing/529260-blackberry-kush.html

OR maybe this guy is right:

"Lineage: Afghani Mother x DJ Shorts Blue Berry
Pheno type: Chronic
Family: 80% Indica 20% Sativa"

http://www.strainreviews.net/indica-strains/blackberry-kush-strain-review-dangreen/

Ive just started researching about veganics since hearing Kyle Kushman talk about. I am very interested in trying it out. It totally makes sense. Ive been looking up the different nutes that i have found kyle to use and i am gonna be doing some testing of some recipes. Can you talk more on what you use? Also i really want to attent the seminar at oaksterdam with Kyle but ive never attended any class there. Can i still sign up for that seminar without going to any other class there? Thanks and i support what you are talking about. Let haters be haters.

Thanks for the support. You should contact OU about Kyle's class. I'm teaching Outdoor at the basic seminar coming up here at the North Bay campus, open to all, even the haters.

More on what I use...

Media:
We used to rely on the amazing properties of Bio Terra Plus, but that is gone and we need to keep going. Kushman is using HN's new potting mix. It is certified fecal coliform free (aka poop), but is 30% perlite and I won't use it. I'm in a mix that I described a page back. It consists of coco, bark, and peat with less than 5% of perlite. This is essentially a soil-less mix, made from: CocoNot, Sunshine #4, Bio Terra Plus, and Just Right Xtra. The Xtra adds some "soil", earthworm castings (which I choose to count as vegan), DE, microbes, and a little animal organics.

The overall plant based organic nutrient system that I am using is unique to me. The media is unique in addition to the total nutrients used. We all grow our own ways...that is the natural path. My media is over 95% natural and my food is 99% vegan organic.

This way of growing is new school; soil-less vegan organic (plant based organic) indoor container gardens in high yield situations. This is entirely different than old school organics, which is based on soil, slow release poops/meals, and microbes. We are using soil-less media, instantly available plant extracts, and microbes (notice the reliance on microbes like all organics).

By not having a bunch of slow release food mixed in we are able to do a true end-flush. In traditional organics (slow release food) you cannot do a complete flush. By adding water at the end, in a traditional organic flush, you are adding more food. The food is part of the soil and doesn't disappear by magic at 6 weeks. My dissatisfaction with slow release organic flushing has naturally led me to use more soluble organic foods, in a more soil-less media. Which leads straight into vegan organic soil-less gardening.

What I mean by a true flush will become apparent as soon as you smoke your first breath of veganics. The independent reviews all agree. Unlike traditional organics, which benefits from extra flushing, 7 to 10 days of flushing is all that veganic plants can handle, and all that is necessary. In veganics, the first flush brings immediate chlorosis, following the path of nature and revealing secondary pigmentation. Two weeks of flushing is too much for soil-less vegan organic gardens. Now that I am used to veganics, traditional organics looks, tastes, and feels less pure.

Next up: FOOD

sounds fun

I want to take an interlude and say I completely respect old school organics.

I live in a concrete jungle, I grow indoors for medicine not money. After many years I've learned that indoor traditional organics can be improved upon, if your main priority is quality (not ease, cheapness, or anything else). In traditional organics extra flushing (three weeks plus) can usually improve flavor and smoke quality, but you end up shorting yourself in yield. In indoor vegan organic gardening you get to feed almost to the end, making sure the buds get to develop fully, without compromise in taste and smoke quality.

The quality of flower and hash smoke is the true test in my world, and science is slowly beginning to get there. For now, the independent qualitative reviews will have to suffice.

If I had the space I would grow in the ground, in this amazing California climate, with vegan meals AND soluble food. But for now...
Next up: more on VEGAN ORGANIC NUTRITION