Upgrading To Active Flood & Drain .....Gots some questions , any good advice? + REP!!

Ill be switching one of my grows from a passive Hydro drain to waste system to an Active Hydro Flood and Drain system..

My current system is a 4x4 tray with 9 3gallon smart pots and Sunshine#4/perlite as my meduim. Watering is done by hand with a wond, Any run off is drained to waste

What i want to do is keep the 4x4 tray and the 9 3gallon smart pots but i was thinking i would ditch the sunshine mix/perlite for Hydroton LECA balls instead......I would fill the smart pots with leca and place the leca filled pots in the 4x4 tray..... Then i would add a resovoir,water pump, and airstone......

I have few questions though.......

1st, Do i need to fill the tray with leca aswell as the smart pots that are in the tray?? Or do i leave the tray empty and just fill the pots with the leca?? Or just make a lid for the tray.......Basicly is there any advantage to having extra hydroton in the tray around the pots? Vs just having a Lid? Or can i get away with no lid at all??(algee)?

2nd, I figure leca is alot less porous then RW or Coco so i will need to flood the tray more often. Is this correct?? and if so how often should the tray be flooded and for how long should it be flooed for....

3rd, I also heard that if using Leca i should leeve two inchs of standing water at the bottom of the tray to create a constant capillarity action.. Is this correct?? it didnt sound correct so im questioning that....

4th, My tray has 6 inch walls how many inchs high should i flood the tray?? Or does it go by how tall the smart pot is??

5th, My tray is 4'x4'x7" based on that how many gallons should my resovoir be? i was thinking maybe 35 gallons...... what do you guys think??

Im not dead set on The hydroton balls i was also thinking of coco croutons but heard they float.....I was also considering using a course perlite instead.....any seasoned Hydro guys have any good advice....Im not new to growing only new to the ACTIVE side of hydro systems and there meduims.......


Before this ive always done Sunshine Mix#4 mixed with course perlite but i know i cant use that on an active hydro because the meduim stay wet for so long.
I want something that is going to create more of an exchange of oxgen to the roots....

PLUS REP FOR ALL GOOD ADVICE!!!!

1 - If you want to grow larger plants you can fill the whole tray but its not necessary. I have just placed netpots filled with leca and not had any problems with algae.

2 - I flood at least every 4 hrs for 15 mins

3 - You don't need to leave a bunch of standing water, could be harmful over time. A quarter inch or so however might be beneficial. I've always noticed that my biggest growth spurts ocurred when the roots had somehow found they're way into the drain.

4 - You already know the answer.

5 - Not sure, do the calculations.

thanks for the help..........on question number 4 how do i know the answer?? lol if i knew the answer i wouldnt have asked it im not her to see myself type........also when you say you have used net pots with out algae are you saying you had no lid over the tray?? just net pots sitting in a tray with no lid??

Also you say that i dont need to add leca to the tray unless i want to grow bigger plants.....but this would mean that the roots would need to grow through the spmart pots to even get to the extra leca in the tray and im assuming the roots will stop at the side of the smart pot like they normally do and if thats the case then it seems theres no reason for extra leca around the smart pots because the roots wont even get that far....right??

and on question 5 what are the calcuations?? ill do them no prob just need to know the formula for what im suppose to be calculating...............

Bump...........

Sorry for the half-assed response, it was pretty late when i typed it, i probably should've just went to bed.

Anyways, on question 4 i try to keep my flood level a couple inches below the top of the hydroton, the dry layer at the top will prevent algae from growing on the rocks. So the flood level does depend on the height of the pots you are using and how low your plants are resting in the pots, I've never used a smart pot so i don't know how tall they are but the larger the plant/pot the more depth required.

Sorry i've only used netpots and don't really know what smart pots are. I'm assuming though that they're an outdoor pot for dirt? Designed to air prune the roots? With netpots if you don't fil the whole tray with leca you will get the same effect, the air pruning. you don't need to fill it to prevent algae. You might fill it to expand root growth outside of the netpot, in order to veg a larger plant. I usually go from cloner into 3" netpot for vegging, then i put that into a 1 gallon pot for flower. I can grow up to a 3 footer in a gallon pot alone.

I personally would get a res that holds at least 4 times the volume needed to flood the table. I find a larger res is less maintenance. I don't like changing the res more than i have too, maybe every two weeks at the most.

Cheers

Stonetech said:

Sorry for the half-assed response, it was pretty late when i typed it, i probably should've just went to bed.

Anyways, on question 4 i try to keep my flood level a couple inches below the top of the hydroton, the dry layer at the top will prevent algae from growing on the rocks. So the flood level does depend on the height of the pots you are using and how low your plants are resting in the pots, I've never used a smart pot so i don't know how tall they are but the larger the plant/pot the more depth required.

Sorry i've only used netpots and don't really know what smart pots are. I'm assuming though that they're an outdoor pot for dirt? Designed to air prune the roots? With netpots if you don't fil the whole tray with leca you will get the same effect, the air pruning. you don't need to fill it to prevent algae. You might fill it to expand root growth outside of the netpot, in order to veg a larger plant. I usually go from cloner into 3" netpot for vegging, then i put that into a 1 gallon pot for flower. I can grow up to a 3 footer in a gallon pot alone.

I personally would get a res that holds at least 4 times the volume needed to flood the table. I find a larger res is less maintenance. I don't like changing the res more than i have too, maybe every two weeks at the most.

Cheers

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thans for the responce......Yes the smart pot is a airration container that air prunes the roots once they reach the inside wall of cloth pot.......They arent just ment for outside though they can be used for all kinds of applications...... Ok so like you said the extra leca around the smart pots wont really serve a purpose unless the roots grow out of the smart pot then into the leca in the tray and since the smart pots prune the roots wouldnt that mean theres no need to the extra leca in the tray because the smart pots will keep the roots from even getting into the tray correct??

My Tray is 4'x4'x7" I figure i 50 gal reso should be plenty

He answered most of your questions but with regards to the smart pot, I assume they will be 2-3 inches above your tray line but that does not matter, what matters is the level of your plants stem and it's roots, i try to keep the roots just at the top flood line so the roots go a hunting. You do not need to have hydroton around the pots, I can only see it impeding the point of the smart pot. Resevoir should be around 100-120 litres. I'm sure you may have thought of this but whatever you put your tray and plants on need to be able to handle the weight of 9 fully matured plants, their pots and hydroton and then the water.

newworldicon said:

He answered most of your questions but with regards to the smart pot, I assume they will be 2-3 inches above your tray line but that does not matter, what matters is the level of your plants stem and it's roots, i try to keep the roots just at the top flood line so the roots go a hunting. You do not need to have hydroton around the pots, I can only see it impeding the point of the smart pot. Resevoir should be around 100-120 litres. I'm sure you may have thought of this but whatever you put your tray and plants on need to be able to handle the weight of 9 fully matured plants, their pots and hydroton and then the water.

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Yes you are correct they are about 3 inchs taller then the sides of my tray... Ok so i think i wont do hydroton in the tray just in the smartpots.....And ill make the overflow drain adjustable so i can lower the level of the flood once the roots start to grow down......make sense??

And yes i figured out the easy stuff like make the frame strong enough to hold the tray and all its plants lol........ Thanks for advice any active hydro advice you got spill it on me i like to soak it up like a spung..... +rep for ya.............also i im going to flood the tray 15 min for every 1.5 hours.....and at night im going to flood it 15 min for every 3 hours......how does that sound to everyone?? i cant get an exact time to flood so im going in the middle of what ive heard.......some say 15 min every 2 hours some say 15 min every 1 hour some say 15 min every 4 hours....Some say flood less at night then when lights are on.........some say DONT flood at all when lights are off......some say flood the same as you do when lights are on........lol so i guess its to each his own....

FootClan said:

Yes you are correct they are about 3 inchs taller then the sides of my tray... Ok so i think i wont do hydroton in the tray just in the smartpots.....And ill make the overflow drain adjustable so i can lower the level of the flood once the roots start to grow down......make sense??

And yes i figured out the easy stuff like make the frame strong enough to hold the tray and all its plants lol........ Thanks for advice any active hydro advice you got spill it on me i like to soak it up like a spung..... +rep for ya.............also i im going to flood the tray 15 min for every 1.5 hours.....and at night im going to flood it 15 min for every 3 hours......how does that sound to everyone?? i cant get an exact time to flood so im going in the middle of what ive heard.......some say 15 min every 2 hours some say 15 min every 1 hour some say 15 min every 4 hours....Some say flood less at night then when lights are on.........some say DONT flood at all when lights are off......some say flood the same as you do when lights are on........lol so i guess its to each his own....

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Does this mean you have 15min timer intervals? I have read that the more you flood the better only if you can lessen the flood time, draws more oxygen into the root zone but if you have the 15min then every 2-3 hours is fine, i do that, BUT I never ever flood at night and have never had any problems.

I would also not bother with adjusting the drain level, i prefer all the water to drain back into the res.

newworldicon said:

Does this mean you have 15min timer intervals? I have read that the more you flood the better only if you can lessen the flood time, draws more oxygen into the root zone but if you have the 15min then every 2-3 hours is fine, i do that, BUT I never ever flood at night and have never had any problems.

I would also not bother with adjusting the drain level, i prefer all the water to drain back into the res.

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I dont have a timer i have a homemade control panel with a processor and 5 120v outputs The control panel was custom made by me and my dad hard wired to my computer and linked to my rator.. Lights, heater, A/c, fans and of course soon to be waterpumps are all controled from my laptop inside the home... Insted of using timer we use a clock that the prossecor is clocked to that way if power turns off then back on the clock picks up and adjusts to the right time like a computer rather then a timer just starts where the power turned off this way the light cycle is more consistant and never gets fucked up...However we are going to instal a timer in the box because we want the pump to run off a timer rather then a clock..............Not only that but the software for the control panel was written by my dad himself so we can do ANYTHING we want we are only limited by the hardwares limitations.......

so you say you never flood at night? what kinda meduim are you using when you dont flood at night?? Im using Hydroton and im not sure if the hydroton will stay wet for the entire time the lights are off and i dont want to dry them out....... also like i said above i can make the interval for the pump to whatever flood times i want im not limited by any timer or retaill control panel .........So if im going to flood ever hour should i NOT do it for 15 min but maybe 10 min since im flooding more often?? cause i can do any intervals i want

You really don't need to worry about roots drying out at night, people have been using this method including myself for a long time, I have never watered at night so do not know the effect. But I would think it would not really make much difference. You should time how long it takes to fill the tray with solution, that should be your duration time, then depending on how long that is you can water every 45min if you like. Mine takes 3 minutes to fill before I hear the water drain. Bottom line is you should not try to leave the roots suspended in solution for too long so they do not suffocate but you should flood enough times during the day to keep the oxygen sucking into the root zone and enough nutrient solution in the hydroton. Believe it or not but there is a fair bit more moisture down below than you might think.

Oh and I use hydroton balls too, I think most people in ebb and flood use this medium.

newworldicon said:

Oh and I use hydroton balls too, I think most people in ebb and flood use this medium.

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well i have some new concerns now....keeping my reso water temps between 65-70 i was planning on having my reso directly underneth my tray but if my ambient temsp in the room is 75-80 then wont the water in my reso heat up to ambient temps?? i dont get how im suppose to keep my water cooler then my ambient temps..... So now im thinking i will have my reso outside my grow room to solve this problem...I dont get how all these hydro ebb systems with reso's in the grow room how are they keeping there water temps cooler then there ambient temps....

And yes ive heard of chillers but they are like 400 bucks for a small one and they pull 2amps i dont have enough amps to run a chiller a 600w a 5000 btu A/c plus a dedicated fan for lights and a dedicated fan for exhaust plus my pumps and osilating fans and my control box i mean its addin up...... I dont see how all this will come togeather.......So im thinking reso outside grow room and ill only do active hydro during the cold months win i can get away with out having a chiller.... the outside air will cool the reso down to 60's and then i can keep my grow room at 80(since ill be using C02) am i missing something ? how the hell does everyone cool there reso if its in the grow room...... I mean ya i could bring my ambient temps down to 70 with my AC but then i wouldnt have my temps where i want them how do i keep my ambient temps at 80 but my reso temps at 65 and not have a 2.2 amp chiller along side a 5000btu Ac??

Hey FootClan how are ya mate?

i have a 4'x4'x6' tent and i run a 600w MH and one exhuast fan rated at 500cfm, i have another fan the same for intake but i like to have a neggative pressure effect in my tent it helps with extraction of excess heat and smell. my set up (see my signatures below) has my res below my table which hold my main tub of hydraton, yes i understand that HID bulbs create heaps of heat in these smaller tents but i found that i made my table 3.5'x3.5' square this allows planty of bench space and aiding in reflecting the light back up underneath the plants. this also keeps the temp underneath the tank a good 8degrees F cooler than above it, (have you noticed ther is a diffence at height in your tent) my tent sits in my garagewhich has a concrete floor which is way cooler this helps keep my watet res temp at a constant 69.8 degrees F (im from Australia but incase your from the states or anyone else reading this i hav converted to Farenheit for you) also have a complete read of this site it is really helpful.......
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/eftips.htm

well i hope this helped man!!

tricka said:

Hey FootClan how are ya mate?

i have a 4'x4'x6' tent and i run a 600w MH and one exhuast fan rated at 500cfm, i have another fan the same for intake but i like to have a neggative pressure effect in my tent it helps with extraction of excess heat and smell. my set up (see my signatures below) has my res below my table which hold my main tub of hydraton, yes i understand that HID bulbs create heaps of heat in these smaller tents but i found that i made my table 3.5'x3.5' square this allows planty of bench space and aiding in reflecting the light back up underneath the plants. this also keeps the temp underneath the tank a good 8degrees F cooler than above it, (have you noticed ther is a diffence at height in your tent) my tent sits in my garagewhich has a concrete floor which is way cooler this helps keep my watet res temp at a constant 69.8 degrees F (im from Australia but incase your from the states or anyone else reading this i hav converted to Farenheit for you) also have a complete read of this site it is really helpful.......
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/eftips.htm

well i hope this helped man!!

Click to expand...

so your saying that even though your reservoir is in the grow room the water inside dosent get to the same ambient temps in your grow room?? I want to beleive that i just dont see how it makes sense...I mean if i put a glass of water in a room and leave it here half the day wouldnt one think that the glass of water would become same temp as room??

Thanks for jumping in i cant seem to get any responces i usually get a butt load of responces when i post a topic i dont understand why i get nothing when i post a topic about flood and drain....

It is probally hard to beilieve, but if you use your description as a reasoning for temps to increase (glass of water) then you may have forgotton about the fact that the glass of water is succeptable to incoming light, and not to mention that its volume is really small. i ran many many tests to calculate watering times and in relateion to light temps i also watched them
closely, as i stated before my main advantage is that i have a black 60lt res which is approx 15 gallon, this res is sitting on concrete that is around 12 degrees celcius or 53.6F, this coupled with my table covering 90%light/heat and with having that much water in the res it makes it hard to warm up, also i run 2 x 12" airstones at 8 litres a minute, this adds DO to the res and helps with the overall temperature staying down....trust me dude keeping your water and nutes under 70F is a must. temp raises above this aids in depleting the aqquired DO that your trying to maintain with your airstones. i will be running a little expiriment soon with a little airstone in my ebb container airing it up when the pump turns on....you know just to add that extra Co2 into my root system...this will possibly run a further more 15mins after the drain is complete.

tricka said:

Hey FootClan how are ya mate?

i have a 4'x4'x6' tent and i run a 600w MH and one exhuast fan rated at 500cfm, i have another fan the same for intake but i like to have a neggative pressure effect in my tent it helps with extraction of excess heat and smell. my set up (see my signatures below) has my res below my table which hold my main tub of hydraton, yes i understand that HID bulbs create heaps of heat in these smaller tents but i found that i made my table 3.5'x3.5' square this allows planty of bench space and aiding in reflecting the light back up underneath the plants. this also keeps the temp underneath the tank a good 8degrees F cooler than above it, (have you noticed ther is a diffence at height in your tent) my tent sits in my garagewhich has a concrete floor which is way cooler this helps keep my watet res temp at a constant 69.8 degrees F (im from Australia but incase your from the states or anyone else reading this i hav converted to Farenheit for you) also have a complete read of this site it is really helpful.......
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/eftips.htm

well i hope this helped man!!

Click to expand...

Yeah having a concrete slab in a basement or garage to set your res on is the best, I actually have to run a small aquarium heater in my res cause its too cold.

But if you don't have this option the temp at your floor should still be cooler than your ambient temps, at least by a few degrees. You could try insulating your res, I like that reflective bubble wrap shit. Also having your res close to your fresh air intake would help keep it a little cooler.

Lots of people who can't beat the heat seem to be using food grade H202 to keep their res clean.

One summer I ran a portable air conditioner in the room I was drawing air from too keep my temps in check, worked pretty good, but yeah its just another expense.

If by ambient temps you mean at the tray level then your res temps should be much cooler, most of the heat from the light will be reflected away by your tray.

FootClan said:

well i have some new concerns now....keeping my reso water temps between 65-70 i was planning on having my reso directly underneth my tray but if my ambient temsp in the room is 75-80 then wont the water in my reso heat up to ambient temps?? i dont get how im suppose to keep my water cooler then my ambient temps..... So now im thinking i will have my reso outside my grow room to solve this problem...I dont get how all these hydro ebb systems with reso's in the grow room how are they keeping there water temps cooler then there ambient temps....

And yes ive heard of chillers but they are like 400 bucks for a small one and they pull 2amps i dont have enough amps to run a chiller a 600w a 5000 btu A/c plus a dedicated fan for lights and a dedicated fan for exhaust plus my pumps and osilating fans and my control box i mean its addin up...... I dont see how all this will come togeather.......So im thinking reso outside grow room and ill only do active hydro during the cold months win i can get away with out having a chiller.... the outside air will cool the reso down to 60's and then i can keep my grow room at 80(since ill be using C02) am i missing something ? how the hell does everyone cool there reso if its in the grow room...... I mean ya i could bring my ambient temps down to 70 with my AC but then i wouldnt have my temps where i want them how do i keep my ambient temps at 80 but my reso temps at 65 and not have a 2.2 amp chiller along side a 5000btu Ac??

Click to expand...

I have never had problems with water tempreture, even if it is as hot as the ambient air in the space. At times it is a warm as the air around it but the plants seem to be fine. Keeping the res outside if a viable option is fine.

Ok thanks fo input.......I have a cement floor the hole grow is on a slab of cement so if i did put the reso in the grow room it would be sitting directly on the cement......It already is positioned right at the passive intake hole but i was thinking of going to a sealed room with c02 and i thought that alone would cause more problems with my reso temps....I can put the reso under my tray in the grow room on a cement or i can put it outside the grow room on cement....eather way i just want to make it so i wont be killing myself trying to get the water temps down........from what everyones telling me i gather that the reso temps dont reach ambient air temps even when in the same room.....