Universal Basic Income; 'bout time or batshit crazy?

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fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
StonerCol said:
Nobody is being exploited? Really?
Businesses do it all the time. Many business owners see it as part of their business strategy, to get as much out of people for the least amount of money possible. I used to work for a company that did exactly that, leaving me mentally broken.
The law in the UK is even on the side of these business owners because for most of the past 40 years, since Margaret Thatcher & Reagan (Who shared the same economic philosophy) employment laws have discriminated against the workers.
In my case I was told the law couldn't help me because I didn't have any evidence. What evidence was I supposed to have other than the facts of my mental illness that I didn't have when I started working at the company?

The whole system is based upon putting profit before people. Just one example - why is it acceptable for businesses to hold money offshore yet individuals cannot? As I said, the whole system is skewed in favour of the corporations because that is where the money - and political donations - comes from.
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Employment is at the will of the employee. If you are getting exploited it is by your own choice.
 
StonerCol

StonerCol

Well-Known Member
fdd2blk said:
Employment is at the will of the employee. If you are getting exploited it is by your own choice.
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Given that generally speaking people NEED to work to earn money then they are instantly in a situation where they are open to possible exploitation. If that person is suffering from a mental illness, e.g. depression, then they may well be in a situation whereby they are trapped in their job. To leave that job, find another position, go for an interview, have to decide whether or not to lie to the interviewer about their mental illness are all very difficult for the sufferer. Often it is easier to stay put even though the situation might be hellish. The alternative will often seem even more so.

If we were to democratise money by giving everyone a UBI then exploitation would be massively decreased. This is because any (sensible/reasonably intelligent employer) would realise that if they exploit their employees they will simply leave. They will able to leave because they have the UBI to fall back on to provide essentials such as rent/mortgage/food/clothing.
Employers would then be forced to treat their employees decently because there is no barrier to leaving.
 
F

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
StonerCol said:
Given that generally speaking people NEED to work to earn money then they are instantly in a situation where they are open to possible exploitation. If that person is suffering from a mental illness, e.g. depression, then they may well be in a situation whereby they are trapped in their job. To leave that job, find another position, go for an interview, have to decide whether or not to lie to the interviewer about their mental illness are all very difficult for the sufferer. Often it is easier to stay put even though the situation might be hellish. The alternative will often seem even more so.

If we were to democratise money by giving everyone a UBI then exploitation would be massively decreased. This is because any (sensible/reasonably intelligent employer) would realise that if they exploit their employees they will simply leave. They will able to leave because they have the UBI to fall back on to provide essentials such as rent/mortgage/food/clothing.
Employers would then be forced to treat their employees decently because there is no barrier to leaving.
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I've been employed for over 30 years. You aren't fooling me with this nonsense.
 
StonerCol

StonerCol

Well-Known Member
fdd2blk said:
I've been employed for over 30 years. You aren't fooling me with this nonsense.
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I hope for your sake that you don't fall ill with mental health issues because then you will have a very rude awakening.
This "nonsense" as you describe it is from personal experience. Did this experience not happen to me? Did I imagine it?
 
ANC

ANC

Well-Known Member
esh dov ets said:
you get 75% of what a garbage man gets?
if you paid into social security and can o longer work you can get checks. if you also have a disability you can get ssdi and social security. there are different forms of social security .
so you have 900 ssdi + social security. and you say you get above min wage. that's good.
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No, your pension starts at 75% of what you earned at the time. Then it increases at what is reported to be inflation. In the real world though inflation is magnitudes higher. This is not state funded, but based on employment insurance I had as a young person. I spend the money I didn't use on drugs, wisely, bought a house at 20 with no external help. Insurance had to pay off the house.
 
ANC

ANC

Well-Known Member
fdd2blk said:
If anyone ever tries to exploit me I simply walk out the door.
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Did this the first time I was 18, my buddy and I was like slave labour at a shop near the beach. They have this touch rugby day that people come from miles away for. We stuck it out till that day, packed our bags before going to bed, and left for a nice day of getting pissed on the beach when the doors opened leaving the fucker without staff.
 
StonerCol

StonerCol

Well-Known Member
ANC said:
Did this the first time I was 18, my buddy and I was like slave labour at a shop near the beach. They have this touch rugby day that people come from miles away for. We stuck it out till that day, packed our bags before going to bed, and left for a nice day of getting pissed on the beach when the doors opened leaving the fucker without staff.
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Brilliant!! :)
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
ANC said:
No, your pension starts at 75% of what you earned at the time. Then it increases at what is reported to be inflation. In the real world though inflation is magnitudes higher. This is not state funded, but based on employment insurance I had as a young person. I spend the money I didn't use on drugs, wisely, bought a house at 20 with no external help. Insurance had to pay off the house.
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oh a pension . that's cool. not everybody gets a retirement, that's a related issue to health care, welfare, ubi, if you made 22 an hour you could afford a savings, it has nothing to do with drugs. the last part is stigma not reality. more people use drugs after they are impoverished or with very little economic stain then the few that go broke due to bad habits
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
SneekyNinja said:
I think we first need to have a discussion about what it means it to be "disabled".

If it means you have extra special requirements that cost money then yes they should be covered.

But is it the responsibility of the Govt to provide for a lifestyle as opposed to basic subsistence?

Is 2k a month not good enough to just be handed?

What about 2.5k?

You've obviously got skin in the game so I don't know if it's logical to debate someone so emotionally involved.
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i told u i work security and at a food bank and i write and consult. who care where my skin is in this game it involves everybody. are you more narcissistic or empathetic. disabled by current ssa requirements or ideally? it doesn't matter much but lets say it means you either can't get hired, can't work or can't keep a job through no fault of your own.
what is the purpose of a government? what is the national goal. currently the goal is always economic growth. economic growth happens when bad thing happen to people and to the planet. the overnment wants to use every citezen it can to advance this goal. they don't want to look to bad or have a revolt against, so they placate the poor with welfare the disabled with ssi, those small patches are inadequate to live off of and more and more people need something ,, so ubi,, so no revolution. if nations cared about the fulfillment and contentment or even the pleasure of the people , no one would have to work for slave wages and there would be no underclass.
why does it threaten you to bring the underclass up to reasonable compensation.
the rich live off their wealth while the poor work for the rich and pay the rich rent. i am poor, you live off your parents wealth. i am laying it down for you to see. how will it hurt the extremely rich to fund ubi for every body under a certain income. you say fine 5000 more dollars you are missing the point and i don't think you even know what the problem is. i think you could get it with a dash of empathy and common sense. i have provided enough info for you to do so. if you care to rebut please at least try to comprehend the situation
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
StonerCol said:
Nobody is being exploited? Really?
Businesses do it all the time.

The whole system is based upon putting profit before people. Just one example - why is it acceptable for businesses to hold money offshore yet individuals cannot? As I said, the whole system is skewed in favour of the corporations because that is where the money - and political donations - comes from.
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esh dov ets said:
...because of the stigma on being poor and out of work. instead of an understanding of the systems of capitalism and racism and the broken conscience of the elite.
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These are excellent points and they're why more people than ever are homeless.

The idea that poor people are inherently lazy is a myth that plays very well to rich trustafarians who've never had to work a day in their lives and never will. Yet they'll have plenty of money with which to pay off the political system to keep things as they are. And it's tax deductible, so it doesn't even cost them anything!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
StonerCol said:
Given that generally speaking people NEED to work to earn money then they are instantly in a situation where they are open to possible exploitation. If that person is suffering from a mental illness, e.g. depression, then they may well be in a situation whereby they are trapped in their job. To leave that job, find another position, go for an interview, have to decide whether or not to lie to the interviewer about their mental illness are all very difficult for the sufferer. Often it is easier to stay put even though the situation might be hellish. The alternative will often seem even more so.

If we were to democratise money by giving everyone a UBI then exploitation would be massively decreased. This is because any (sensible/reasonably intelligent employer) would realise that if they exploit their employees they will simply leave. They will able to leave because they have the UBI to fall back on to provide essentials such as rent/mortgage/food/clothing.
Employers would then be forced to treat their employees decently because there is no barrier to leaving.
Click to expand...
...hence why employers hate the idea and will come up with any lie to prevent it from happening. They're the same tactics they've successfully employed against unions.
 
SneekyNinja

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
...hence why employers hate the idea and will come up with any lie to prevent it from happening. They're the same tactics they've successfully employed against unions.
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Would you accept 2 to 2.5k UBI per month is an acceptable "all in" replacement for welfare in all it's forms?
 
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