Unions Finally Reaching Out

Moses Mobetta said:

Either we raise the standard of living or lower it . Personally I would like to see it raised . It's about people trying to live better .

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I wish things worked that way, but they don't. The problem started when men decided women should work too. They were clever and said it was about equal rights. It was just a foolish ploy which backfired. It succeeded for a bit, the few men who had their wife who worked too had an increased standard of living. But as more wives worked, this was no longer a rarity. If you have more, you can afford more, until two people want the same, then the highest bidder wins.

So if we want more, we have to ALL earn less. Only have one bread winner, who the other does all the domestic jobs of the house.

You have a choice, become homeless. They're at the bottom. It's sad, but their failure inspires others to work hard for shit. "It's still better than homeless!"

I find this concept best explained in Huxley's, Brave New World. His book has a cure, but are you willing to live your life that way?

I understand the first part about two adults incomes that inflation caught up to so now 2 work for what 1 used to . That is being chipped away at also . It seems things like what you suggest only works if everyone does it . Like all the people who started buying cheap chinese junk , then it escalated and US jobs went to china . Consumers are largely to blame for that .

Moses Mobetta said:

I understand the first part about two adults incomes that inflation caught up to so now 2 work for what 1 used to . That is being chipped away at also . It seems things like what you suggest only works if everyone does it . Like all the people who started buying cheap chinese junk , then it escalated and US jobs went to china . Consumers are largely to blame for that .

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our regulators are to blame for that.

when money is tight, you cant blame a poor man for buying cheap shoes, but when you create a system where those who make shoes in america go out of business, since they cannot compete with the slave labour of china, you create a system which by it's very nature is poisonous to industry.

"free trade" caused the influx of cheaply made crap from foreign lands, and federal regulators provided the fiduciary responsibility rules that created the REQUIREMENT to move all possible labour costs to the cheapest labour market available.

an executive who decides to NOT save money (and thus not increase profits) can be sent to prison for failure to exercise his "fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders"

meanwhile a politician who is for tariffs is called a protectionist, as if PROTECTING our industry and economy were some sin.

both sides, left and right democrat and republican have spent the last 40 years worshiping at the false idol of the "service economy" under the assumption that if we all just pass the same monopoly money around without actually creating anything tangible from our efforts the economy will be magically cured of the dependance on natural resources.

and thats why china's economy is growing and ours is contracting like a scrotum dipped in icewater.

Moses Mobetta said:

All that from some pay raises huh ? Well we should stop all pay raises immediately then . Are you really serious ? Forget about stealing and giving millions . Inflation is caused by greed . Not pay raises .

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Ok when you learn something about how money systems work you can absolutely debate me, I'd love it, good informed debate is awesome.

But let me ask you this, do you honestly think wage increases don't directly increase the cost of a product? Thus fucking consumers and making the wage increase pointless in the first place? It drives inflation and essentially devalues whatever currency it's being inflicted on.

Im not saying wage increases are a bad thing, when carefully measured and performance based they provide incentive for productivity, but saying that wage increases across the board will help is overly simplistic and a seriously misguided lefty principle.

Harrekin said:

Ok when you learn something about how money systems work you can absolutely debate me, I'd love it, good informed debate is awesome.

But let me ask you this, do you honestly think wage increases don't directly increase the cost of a product? Thus fucking consumers and making the wage increase pointless in the first place? It drives inflation and essentially devalues whatever currency it's being inflicted on.

Im not saying wage increases are a bad thing, when carefully measured and performance based they provide incentive for productivity, but saying that wage increases across the board will help is overly simplistic and a seriously misguided lefty principle.

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I'm glad your magically able to measure the knowledge of others . News Flash - wage increases happen every day all over the world all the time and have been doing so for quite a while . In order for them to cause what you suggest they would have to be huge leaping pay increases . Seriously . I never suggested that . That is not what I am talking about .
When Carpenters such as myself were making a thousand dollars a week 20-25 years ago did their pays cause what we have now ? Cause by my calculations that would be almost 3X what the same money is worth today , which in many places you can't even earn that now . Sounds like a fright wing wacko theory of trickle up inflation . I'd hate to disrupt the high income CEO millionaires birthday party funds with some reasonable pay increases for hourly wage employees that would ultimately destabilize entire monetary systems world wide . I own and operate a bussiness that employes people so I have an idea about how that works .

Y'know, in a very short period of time, we're going to have a demonstration of these competing economic theories. California, one of the largest economies in the world, has put advocates of one theory in complete control. Those that believe in greater government control, Green policies, tax policies that reflects President Obama's view, proponents of social justice, now have a Super Majority in both house and senate, and a governor that has spoken honestly and openly for a "Communalist" socio-economic California. And the people of California have willingly passed a huge tax hike on themselves with the understanding that government will continue to supply, and even expand, social programs. From each side, what should we expect in California? Economically, socially, personally. If you don't believe things will get better, why would you champion these views? If you think things are going to get worse, how? Bashing each other is easy enough, but predict the future for me.

HersbruckerII said:

Y'know, in a very short period of time, we're going to have a demonstration of these competing economic theories. California, one of the largest economies in the world, has put advocates of one theory in complete control. Those that believe in greater government control, Green policies, tax policies that reflects President Obama's view, proponents of social justice, now have a Super Majority in both house and senate, and a governor that has spoken honestly and openly for a "Communalist" socio-economic California. And the people of California have willingly passed a huge tax hike on themselves with the understanding that government will continue to supply, and even expand, social programs. From each side, what should we expect in California? Economically, socially, personally. If you don't believe things will get better, why would you champion these views? If you think things are going to get worse, how? Bashing each other is easy enough, but predict the future for me.

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To combine all those things together and enact them does not sound like it will be good . In gradual steps maybe with other measures to counter or offset the downside .

Moses Mobetta said:

I'm glad your magically able to measure the knowledge of others . News Flash - wage increases happen every day all over the world all the time and have been doing so for quite a while . In order for them to cause what you suggest they would have to be huge leaping pay increases . Seriously . I never suggested that . That is not what I am talking about .
When Carpenters such as myself were making a thousand dollars a week 20-25 years ago did their pays cause what we have now ? Cause by my calculations that would be almost 3X what the same money is worth today , which in many places you can't even earn that now . Sounds like a fright wing wacko theory of trickle up inflation . I'd hate to disrupt the high income CEO millionaires birthday party funds with some reasonable pay increases for hourly wage employees that would ultimately destabilize entire monetary systems world wide . I own and operate a bussiness that employes people so I have an idea about how that works . Huge corporate salary and bonus increases across the board with never ending bailout plans help the economy immensely .

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carpenters are skilled tradesman, who manufacture durable goods which will (hopefully) last for generations. they were talking burger flippers. they are unskilled labourers making a product that is intended to last for like 8 hours or so (or more if you're constipated).

artificailly inflating the wages of burger flippers cannot help but cause an increase in burger prices, or a reduction in overall burger availability, as some smaller burger shacks cannot simply reduce their overhead by purchasing kangaroo meat fillers or buying "Export Quality" buns in bulk.

the trades in general, and construction in specific got FUCKED HARD by the latest recession, but they get fucked hard by every new move in the economy. Illegal workers from south of the border, new requirements for contractors that turns the employee or tradesman into a liability which must be jettisoned at the first sign of a slowdown, and the new fad for disposable Mc Mansion Revolving Refinancing that ensures houses which need repair get abandoned by their "owners" and will become hobo flops till they get burnt down by a trashcan barbecue instead of being repaired by members of the carpenters union.

at least you can afford a double cheeseburger and a side of fries now and again. if burger flippers are mandated to earn as much as skilled carpenters, youll never be able to enjoy a Double Double again without taking out a line of credit

Moses Mobetta said:

I'm glad your magically able to measure the knowledge of others . News Flash - wage increases happen every day all over the world all the time and have been doing so for quite a while . In order for them to cause what you suggest they would have to be huge leaping pay increases . Seriously . I never suggested that . That is not what I am talking about .
When Carpenters such as myself were making a thousand dollars a week 20-25 years ago did their pays cause what we have now ? Cause by my calculations that would be almost 3X what the same money is worth today , which in many places you can't even earn that now . Sounds like a fright wing wacko theory of trickle up inflation . I'd hate to disrupt the high income CEO millionaires birthday party funds with some reasonable pay increases for hourly wage employees that would ultimately destabilize entire monetary systems world wide . I own and operate a bussiness that employes people so I have an idea about how that works .

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Ok, so if you start paying all your guys $200 dollars an hour, how much will my cladding cost then?

Apparently you don't know how money systems work.

Harrekin said:

Ok, so if you start paying all your guys $200 dollars an hour, how much will my cladding cost then?

Apparently you don't know how money systems work.

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I was not suggesting anything like that . That is a huge , leaping increase that is actually ridiculous . We are speaking of this differently . If people want to make $200.00 an hour then they should go work for themselves in an industry that can support that kind of pay , open up their own bussiness would be my advice . The Home Depot was paying a lot more like $15-$20 for various positions . Now they pay minumum wage for the same jobs . That is what I was talking about - places that pay welders $8-$10 per hour are suddenly very popular now also . I never suggested anything as drastic as that . Paying fair wages where everyone can benefit is possible . How money systems work - when they are not backed by anything and the money is just printed out of thin air and borrowing too much are things that are causing the problems . Not hourly wage workers struggling to get by .

Moses Mobetta said:

I was not suggesting anything like that . That is a huge , leaping increase that is actually ridiculous . We are speaking of this differently . If people want to make $200.00 an hour then they should go work for themselves in an industry that can support that kind of pay , open up their own bussiness would be my advice . The Home Depot was paying a lot more like $15-$20 for various positions . Now they pay minumum wage for the same jobs . That is what I was talking about - places that pay welders $8-$10 per hour are suddenly very popular now also . I never suggested anything as drastic as that . Paying fair wages where everyone can benefit is possible . How money systems work - when they are not backed by anything and the money is just printed out of thin air and borrowing too much are things that are causing the problems . Not hourly wage workers struggling to get by .

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Inflating wages decreases profit margins which inflates price. Which again hurts hourly wage workers struggling to get by. Do you now see the correlation here? You can't fix the system by increasing everyone wages it just doesn't work that way. All you have to do is look at cities like New York, LA, Chicago they're prime examples how inflated salaries work. For 900 a month you can rent a two story custom build home(or buy it) in the midwest, you can't live in the ghetto for that in New York city.

nontheist said:

Inflating wages decreases profit margins which inflates price. Which again hurts hourly wage workers struggling to get by. Do you now see the correlation here? You can't fix the system by increasing everyone wages it just doesn't work that way. All you have to do is look at cities like New York, LA, Chicago they're prime examples how inflated salaries work. For 900 a month you can rent a two story custom build home(or buy it) in the midwest, you can't live in the ghetto for that in New York city.

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I understand that . Those are basic principles . I never suggested increasing everyones wages . Apples and Oranges . Some people think that gold value is measured by the dollar , that there really is a Santa Clause . Read my posts .

Moses Mobetta said:

I understand that . Those are basic principles . I never suggested increasing everyones wages . Apples and Oranges . Some people think that gold value is measured by the dollar , that there really is a Santa Clause . Read my posts .

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Your previous post advocates for wage increases, which lead to cost of living increases, which squeeze poor people more than rich people (who spend a lower % of income on basic survival).

You're calling for a self defeating "solution".

Harrekin said:

Your previous post advocates for wage increases, which lead to cost of living increases, which squeeze poor people more than rich people (who spend a lower % of income on basic survival).

You're calling for a self defeating "solution".

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After reading all your crap for today including insulting my wife I would have to side with the British in letting your people starve to death. it was probably the right thing to do

ChesusRice said:

After reading all your crap for today including insulting my wife I would have to side with the British in letting your people starve to death. it was probably the right thing to do

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You of all people know it's just a game, stop the victim routine.

Harrekin said:

You of all people know it's just a game, stop the victim routine.

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Please keep the insults to me and Please stop attacking people who are going thru hard times.
I'm saying please. Because as much as I enjoy and respect you. Those two aspects of some of your recent posts leave me disappointed. You are a good person otherwise

Solution -Kill the poor and starving . Then not only will we not have to feed them but they won't be able to cause economic collapse by wanting raises .

Moses Mobetta said:

Solution -Kill the poor and starving . Then not only will we not have to feed them but they won't be able to cause economic collapse by wanting raises .

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That won't work. The next worst off will be the next "it" class. It's like going to school and everyone has a 180 IQ in a course. An A will be 99.8% and an F 99.2%, out of 100%.

Canna Sylvan said:

That won't work. The next worst off will be the next "it" class. It's like going to school and everyone has a 180 IQ in a course. An A will be 99.8% and an F 99.2%, out of 100%.

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and the asian kid will still ruin the grading curve.

Dr Kynes said:

and the asian kid will still ruin the grading curve.

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Asian kids suck in the classes I took, writing and literature. There's more to "smarts" than math and science. Creativity isn't valued as much as it used to be. But imagine a world without Shakespeare, Mozart or Van Gough. To me those are more important than figuring out Pluto really isn't a planet.