ughts on ideal density of plants in SCRoGs? / Any Advice Appreciated.

endogarden

New Member
I am doing a SCRoG with 3 3'x3' tables under 600s, and unfortunately my plants were vegged too long because of circumstancial difficulties with getting the temperature/ducting situation locked in. They are huge! I have 11 on one tray, 13, and 15 on the others, for a total of 39 plants. The lights are in their maximum vertical position, and the plants are getting hard to contain under the screens. During the last week and a half of veg, I foliar fed them with Bushmaster 4 times. Then 2 more times during days 4 and 9 of flowering. It is day 11 of flower, so I am expecting growth for at least another 1.5-2 weeks, but hopefully not much vertical. I hope that there will be room for the colas to prosper. Basically I am wondering if anyone has some opinions or experiences to share about success with very crowded space plant wise. I have never grown in a height confined space before and didn't properly account for this handicap. Any thoughts/help would be appreciated. :wall:



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4th Grow Current State: Week 2.5 of Flower
Secret Jardin DR II 8'x8'x6.5' tent in 11.5'x9.5'x8' room, 1800w-2400w, SCRoG, 39 plants, 3 3x3 trays, ebb & flow, 3 27 gal tote rezs, AC & dehumi, 4 osc. fans, RO water, Coco, FloraNova, Liquid KB, SSUltra, MagiCal, Bushmaster, Azamax
 
just start bending all the tall growth to 90 degrees (incrementally, ove a day or so) which will stunt the colas and let the other buds catch up and then repeat. if you start running into heat problems (which it sounds like you will) put an extra fan blowing air between the light and the plants to try and buffer it, hopefully you have vented hoods. if all the colas are at the same height as they should be in a Scrog set up then carefully cut the screen and remove it, try to make the branches spiral which will slightly reduce their overall height then replace the screen to hold them in place. another option would be to chop the legs off your tables :)
as for the crowded aspect, how long did you veg them? did you top them to produce more colas? with the amount of plants you say in that space you shouldn't top them and only veg for about 1-2 weeks if that. what was wrong with the ventilation that impeded flipping them over?
 

endogarden

New Member
just start bending all the tall growth to 90 degrees (incrementally, ove a day or so) which will stunt the colas and let the other buds catch up and then repeat. if you start running into heat problems (which it sounds like you will) put an extra fan blowing air between the light and the plants to try and buffer it, hopefully you have vented hoods. if all the colas are at the same height as they should be in a Scrog set up then carefully cut the screen and remove it, try to make the branches spiral which will slightly reduce their overall height then replace the screen to hold them in place. another option would be to chop the legs off your tables :)
as for the crowded aspect, how long did you veg them? did you top them to produce more colas? with the amount of plants you say in that space you shouldn't top them and only veg for about 1-2 weeks if that. what was wrong with the ventilation that impeded flipping them over?
Thanks for the response, a few days after I posted that, my girlfriend helped me remove the rezs and tables and drop the flood tables onto the floor, they are sitting on 5" tall blocks of wood. I now have to feed drain to waste but at least they aren't getting burned on the lights any more.

I did have a 18" osc fan blowing between the lights and the canopy, but it was like a 2"-3" space.

I vegged them for like 6 weeks, so yeah they are like 3ft tall before the canopy. They had been topped before I received them when they were like 1.5ft tall.

The ventilation was fucked, and had to be switched around a few times during that 6 weeks they were vegging.

My current 32 plants vegging now are in week 3, they are about 7" tall, but I'm concerned since my flower room won't be done for at least 2 weeks, leaving me with 5 week vegged plants again.

Maybe I should flip them in the veg closet under the 400 and let them start to flower for a week or 2, or do you think this would stunt their growth, having low lighting during first 2 weeks of flower?


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4th Grow Current State: Week 6.9 of Flower
Secret Jardin DR II 8'x8'x6.5' tent in 11.5'x9.5'x8' room, 1800w-2400w, SCRoG, 38 plants, 3 3x3 trays, drain to waste, 3 27 gal tote rezs, AC & 2 dehumidifiers, 4 osc. fans, RO water, Coco, FloraNova, Liquid KB, Floralicious Flower, SSUltra, MagiCal, Bushmaster, Azamax
 
I'm not sure exactly what your trying to do? it sounds like what I'm doing with my 3 tables which is a perpetual garden but you started them all at the same time? growth from the flowering period should be pretty much linear if you use the right nutrients so if you start them off with less light then you will just have less growth at the end leaving you with a bunch of smaller or spindly buds you'll have to trim. I assume you are doing ebb and flow since you said you have a flood table which if you are going to waste then you'll need your RO running non stop depending whether you have a RO res or not. I would chalk this grow up to poor planning and let your flowering stage finish, then move your veg table in. they will be at 5 weeks growth by then you said but at least you'll know that they will produce loads of big buds instead of flowering under insufficient light. that means you will continue to drain to waste for another 2 months but at least your plants will thank you. then you can redesign your grow timeline to make sure you don't run into height problems again. another thing you can do is vary the light to your growth stage to stunt them. like putting a large sheet of white paper right over them so they get the glow from the light but not direct light which will keep them from trying to bud while stunting them. it's a waste of electricity but it'll allow you to use your table the right way during flowering
 

endogarden

New Member
I'm not sure exactly what your trying to do? it sounds like what I'm doing with my 3 tables which is a perpetual garden but you started them all at the same time? growth from the flowering period should be pretty much linear if you use the right nutrients so if you start them off with less light then you will just have less growth at the end leaving you with a bunch of smaller or spindly buds you'll have to trim. I assume you are doing ebb and flow since you said you have a flood table which if you are going to waste then you'll need your RO running non stop depending whether you have a RO res or not. I would chalk this grow up to poor planning and let your flowering stage finish, then move your veg table in. they will be at 5 weeks growth by then you said but at least you'll know that they will produce loads of big buds instead of flowering under insufficient light. that means you will continue to drain to waste for another 2 months but at least your plants will thank you. then you can redesign your grow timeline to make sure you don't run into height problems again. another thing you can do is vary the light to your growth stage to stunt them. like putting a large sheet of white paper right over them so they get the glow from the light but not direct light which will keep them from trying to bud while stunting them. it's a waste of electricity but it'll allow you to use your table the right way during flowering
I'm not sure exactly what your trying to do? it sounds like what I'm doing with my 3 tables which is a perpetual garden
First I am interested in how you are running your perpretual with only 3 tables, as this is what I would like to do eventually. I have a veg closet (3'x4'x8') with a 2x4 flood/drain tray which can hold (32) 5" square pots; a flower tent (8'x8'x7') with the (3) 3x3 trays in (3) corners of the tent, with one corner used for dehumidifier/shopvac, and walking through the tent to get to the veg closet. There is room for a mother next to the veg closet rez, or clones, which I'm currently keeping in the bathroom under a 150watt CFL in a shop light reflector. I'm sure there's a way to create a perpetual cycle, I just couldn't figure out how without 4 tables, which I don't have room for.

you started them all at the same time? growth from the flowering period should be pretty much linear if you use the right nutrients so if you start them off with less light then you will just have less growth at the end leaving you with a bunch of smaller or spindly buds you'll have to trim.
They started all at the same time yes, I just started this up, so I bought 39 "teens" and planned to flower them around week 4, but circumstances made it impossible. Thanks for the tip about linear flower growth, I should have realized that. I have successfully grown 2 full grows and a closet (just under 1lb with 6 plants under a 400!), just not in this location, and not with pre-vegged plants. So I'm trying to better understand why the things I do work.

I assume you are doing ebb and flow since you said you have a flood table which if you are going to waste then you'll need your RO running non stop depending whether you have a RO res or not.
I was doing ebb and flow, until they got so tall I had to drop the trays. Since I have no way to recirculate the nute solution now, I am essentially "draining to waste", feeding as little as I can get away with and shopvac'n the runoff out.

Coincidentally, I had a major flood last week, as my condensate pump stopped working, and the shop vac got clogged and leaked everywhere. The plastic I laid under the tent covers a carpeted floor. The water somehow leaked through, so I had to remove all the rezs and my 130 gal vertical RO rez, and have been shop vac'n the floor and using a lasko space heater on it (it's almost dry, except for the carpet under the tent, which I can't get to). I hope it doesn't mold, and I am resigned to probably removing the carpet after this run. I also had to move my A/C, which just broke as well (sigh), so the room is like 84-89F, 40-45%RH, instead of 75-78F, 40-45%RH.

that means you will continue to drain to waste for another 2 months but at least your plants will thank you. then you can redesign your grow timeline to make sure you don't run into height problems again.
After harvest, I am planning on getting the CAP Ebb & Grow Control bucket module and a 55-100gal tank/rez, that way I can use the flood trays on the floor in place of the usual buckets that system uses. So I won't have to drain to waste again.

I would love to redesign the timeline. I am worried that if I take more clones before I move the 32 veggin ones to the flower tent after harvest, the clones will need transplanting after 20 days or so, which will put me right back in the same boat, veggin for 4-5 weeks. But if I don't take clones, I will have to pay for them again, and I'd end up with another strain. Any thoughts?
 
I typed up a really long reply last night but it didn't post evidently :(
I would just let them veg for 5 weeks and then put them in the flowering room, it'll be a pain to constantly drain to waste especially if it might flood again but you'll have a better end product. as for cloning them I would just wait to redo your set up to make sure you don't have any flooding problems or height issues, which means you'll have to buy more clones but at least you'll know that it'll work.

to use 3 tables for a perpetual grow:
1) start one table in the veg room with some clones
2) at week 2 top them, this will make them split and produce up to 4 colas and it gives you a cutting for new clones
3) veg the table for 2 more weeks while the clones are rooting
4) at the one month mark, move the table into the flowering room and put the clones in the next table in the veg room.
5) repeat steps 2 and 3 for the second table
6) at the second month use your second round of clones to fill up your third table. at this point you'll have 2 tables in your flowering room, the first one will be one month ahead of the other.
7) repeat steps 2 and 3 for the third table
8) by the time you are going to move the 3rd table into the flowering room the first table should be ready for harvest if you have an 8 week strain. just harvest them. clean your table and flush out your medium then plant the new clones in it and start it in the veg room again.

with this set up you will constantly have a perpetual garden that you can harvest every month. I would pick the table with the least amount of holes for plants and start that one first. you will be cloning based off of how many tops you can get which you'll be limited by the amount of holes in one of your tables eventually so might as well start it off that way. seems to me you said one table only held 11 plants? then you'll only need 11 clones. harvesting 11 plants once a month will give you plenty of bud I'd say about a pound and a half a month.

my set up does the same thing but I designed my own NFT/fog tables (I call it the nifty fogger) using vinyl fence posts and a bunch of connectors. I leave my lights (I use 6 led lights over each table) where they are and move the tables around. as I remove a table from the flowering room I put a new one in from the veg room and replant. this keeps me under the "federally mandated" 99 plants, I'll have 60 mature and 30 immature at any one time so I know that I at least have a fighting chance not to get put in jail. I have permission to grow from a dispensary though, I'm not sure where you are or your rules but these are just the guidelines I follow to play it safe and still harvest about 4 pounds a month :)

I went with the Nutrient Film Technique over any other hydroponic type because it's the only technique that allows the roots to get nutrients and oxygen at the same time all the time. ebb and flow will suffocate them while they're feeding then it will starve them while they're breathing. don't get me wrong, ebb/flow has worked marvelously for lot's of people I'm just nit picky. I also have a sonic fogger (google nutramist) supplying fog and oxygen through the tubes. it ensures that all the roots get an even amount of nutes and it also pumps fresh oxygen to them (roots like oxygen, plants like co2)

I use LED's mainly cuz I'm a techie nerd but also because they are more efficient, don't produce a bunch of heat (won't burn my plants even if I smoosh it against them) and have a light spectrum that was designed for growth. HPS and MetalHalide are great lights as proven for the last 40 some years but I'm not even 40 years old and I definitely wouldn't watch a tv from 40 years ago.

Use co2. have you ever heard of the 5 limiting factors? theory goes is that if one of the aspects of growing a plant is limited then no matter how much of the other factors you provide, the growth will be limited by the smallest factor. it's like a body builder working out 12 hours a day but never taking protein or multivitamins.
the limiting factors are:

air (temperature/humidity),
water (ppm/temperature)
light (intensity/spectrum/length)
co2
nutrients (quality/quantity)

co2 is often overlooked because people think that it's just an extra like frosting on a cake. plants use co2 for photosynthesis. without co2 plants can only use so much light, if they can only use so much light then they will only use so much nutrients and the process goes on. so to maximize growth (which is what we all want) you have to have an "equal" amount of each limiting factor. works well in theory but to actually apply it correctly you would need tons of lab equipment to dial it all in.

air (temps: 75-85 with co2/45%-55%RH)
water (use your RO/ 65-70 degree water)
light (your set up is good)
co2 (1200 ppm is good 1500 ppm is expensive)
nutrients (I have my preferences but just follow the manufacturers instructions)

it sounds like your growing in your room (I think) but you should make sure to add filters to your intakes into your tent. never let animals in there and never smoke in there. smoke clogs the plants "pores" and animal hair gets stuck all over the buds tastes like crap when you smoke it bongsmilie. also go get a "kyvex" suit from home depot. you slip it on over your clothes before you enter your grow space and you never have to worry about bad bugs following you in.

I also have a grobot set up. it allows me to automate everything. (once your making 4 pounds a month it gets time consuming) I just have to make sure I'm there every 2 weeks to harvest and move a table or to take clones. I can even see my grow rooms from the security cameras through my phone. I can adjust all my nutes or my light cycles from my phone no matter where I am. ( I'm still trying to design a reliable foiliar feeding system that's automated like at a grocery store, but the thought of intentionally spraying water all over my grow rooms makes me nervous :lol:)

I think I started rambling and don't know if I answered any of your questions. I'm not here to float my own boat. I'm just telling you stuff that's useful or stuff that I do to make things easier or better for myself. ask ten people for advice and you'll get 11 different opinions but don't be hesitant to ask if you have any questions and hope your plants are looking good despite the set backs. post some pics if you have them (or want too)
 

endogarden

New Member
For now here's week 5 and 6 pics, and now week 7, day 2 pics tonight:

Week 5: http://imgur.com/a/YBFTF#Qa0EU
Week 6: http://imgur.com/XXjeu&7KKY5&uAlbx&28ZWsl?full
[Edit:] Week 7: http://imgur.com/QWuc6l&fjGaK

Thank you for helping me upgrade my entire thought process, the info you gave is invaluable, especially coming from someone who's DOING what I have been trying to plan how to do.

I am super psyched about your automation, and topping/cloning combination, it makes so much sense. You fuckin rock.

Gotta go, but I'll reply more fully later.

Here's my signature over at grasscity it has more info on my current setup, on RIU they don't give you enough space.

4th Grow Current State:

Week 7 of Flower
Secret Jardin DR II 8'x8'x6.5' tent in 11.5'x9.5'x8' room, 2400w (4 600s), SCRoG, 39 plants, 3 3x3 trays, drain to waste, 3 27 gal tote rezs, AC & 2 dehumidifiers (30pt + 65pt), 3 osc. fans (7", 12", 18"), Stealth RO 200 + GE Sediment filter water, Botanicare Coco, FloraNova, Floralicious, Liquid KB, SSUltra, MagiCal, Bushmaster, Azamax, Thrive Alive - 39 Grapefruit plants

Week 3.5 of Veg
Veg Closet (2.8'x3.6'x8') with 400w (HPS in Daystar6), 2x4 tray, ebb&flow/flood&drain, 18 gal tote rez, 7" osc. fan - 32 Grapefruit plants
 
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